Israel Rescues Another Hostage

[Coyote]

Perhaps I missed something, but could you clarify why you assume an "apartheid" system in this scenario? I mean, I essentially suggested the same and you declared you could get on board with it. What was different in what I said?

I’m responding in kind to what I perceive from a person who has already advocated ethnic cleansing and has no desire from what I can see to share space with Muslims.

“…The Palestinians who remain are likely tied to HAMAS via relatives and/or hate Jews…”. Remain from…what?

The idea of Israeli sovereignty is appealing to me, particularly if it can be pulled off in a way that provides equality, justice, respect, safety, security and opportunity to every one and people can be made to see this. If you can’t build this, you could end up creating an Aparthied type system even unintentially.

I’m curious to see your opinion here and whether you think these are or are not issues to you.

Opening up Gaza to Jewish settlement. Will it be just be an open gate, with people flooding in to claim what they can? Will priority be given to those already living there to reclaim their property or to develop Gaza? Or will they end up marginalized further? There are examples of this elsewhere in history and Israel has a desperate shortage of affordable housing.

Religion. Religion is huge. Gaza is more religiously conservative than West Bank and the settlers as a group who most want to “settle” Gaza, who have substantial political influence are more conservative than other Jewish groups. How will we get them to not just tolerate but accept on another as equal partners? The other side of the religion issue is this: countries that mix religion into government (as opposed to separation of church and state) do not have a good track record in regards to their minorities and the less secular the population, the more problematic. Look at Al Aqsa/Temple Mount.

Who will pay for this…it will take decades to clean up Gaza and rebuild what has been lost. There is a lack of will to invest in Arab populations within Israel from infrastructure to security to education and that divide has increased lately. International partners have their own concerns with investing.

Security. For everyone. Huge issue. And with it trust. Trust in the government to keep people safe, to deal with people fairly and equitably, and to do so without increasing divides such as checkpoints, barriers, limitations on movement.

Demographics. 2 million more people who are Muslim, in a state with a religious identity that is Jewish and Jews are a minority. Understandably those in a minority, particularly given decades of conflict, will be concerned. And there are examples elsewhere where the minority population was dominant (which was a deliberate strategy in many places under colonial rule) and when things flipped, either gradually or suddenly and violently they lost rights, property or were even killed or forced to flee. Likewise not giving the same rights to the others might continue the conditions that led to conflict.

There are plenty of countries where minority populations and majority populations live together without issue despite history but the key to success seems to forging a strong national identity that overcones tribal, ethnic and religious identities.

I think if things can be done thoughtfully and carefully it can work. But demographic governments are subject to the will of their people and may not be able to maintain the will.

 

[rylah]

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[Shusha]

I’m responding in kind to what I perceive from a person who has already advocated ethnic cleansing and has no desire from what I can see to share space with Muslims.

“…The Palestinians who remain are likely tied to HAMAS via relatives and/or hate Jews…”. Remain from…what?

I hear this.

The idea of Israeli sovereignty is appealing to me, particularly if it can be pulled off in a way that provides equality, justice, respect, safety, security and opportunity to every one and people can be made to see this.

I agree. And I suspect it is a shift for both of us recently as I'm fairly certain we have long been on the same page of "two recognized rights to self-determination and two state". But things change. In my mind, the only demonstrably successful integration (though imperfect) of Jews and Arabs in that land is under Israeli sovereignty. It may not be that way forever, but it appears to be this way now.

If you can’t build this, you could end up creating an Aparthied type system even unintentially.

I would like to respectfully request that we use terminology other than "apartheid" for this discussion, for reasons of trivializing and generalizing. I do not believe there can be an "unintentional" apartheid. Like genocide, apartheid requires intentionality.

My vision/understanding/suggestion does require equality, justice, respect, safety, security, and opportunity for everyone under the law and as much as possible under social standards. But not tomorrow. There will necessarily be a period of rebuilding, re-education, and a recognized need for security to be placed in the highest position. It is not a moral solution. It is a temporary practical solution. Initially, Gaza would be governed by Israel, but as a separate province.

Opening up Gaza to Jewish settlement. Will it be just be an open gate, with people flooding in to claim what they can? Will priority be given to those already living there to reclaim their property or to develop Gaza? Or will they end up marginalized further? There are examples of this elsewhere in history and Israel has a desperate shortage of affordable housing.

Jewish residency in Gaza would be a requirement. I can't see peace without a deep personal and close connection between Arabs and Jews. If Israel can have a 25% Arab population, Gaza can and should have a 25% Jewish population. Existing Arab residents of Gaza would reclaim their property.

Religion. Religion is huge. Gaza is more religiously conservative than West Bank and the settlers as a group who most want to “settle” Gaza, who have substantial political influence are more conservative than other Jewish groups. How will we get them to not just tolerate but accept on another as equal partners?

That is the million dollar question, isn't it? But it can be done. It IS done in Israel.

The other side of the religion issue is this: countries that mix religion into government (as opposed to separation of church and state) do not have a good track record in regards to their minorities and the less secular the population, the more problematic.

Agreed. So the solution would be that IF religion is mixed into government, then it would have to acknowledge both religions. I have no idea how that would work. We'd have to drill down into what we are actually talking about when we say "mix religion into government".

Look at Al Aqsa/Temple Mount.

Yep. For me, this is the most contentious issue by far. First, we need the entire Muslim world to acknowledge and respect Jewish religious and historical claim to that place. Not just a shared claim, but the original claim. Then we need the Jewish world to accept the shared claim. Everyone must have shared and equal access, whether meaning shared space, shared time, or both. However, we might have to baby step this as well. Which means a temporary practical solution pending a slow and gradual change to a moral one.

Who will pay for this…it will take decades to clean up Gaza and rebuild what has been lost. There is a lack of will to invest in Arab populations within Israel from infrastructure to security to education and that divide has increased lately. International partners have their own concerns with investing.

Iran?

I'm assuming an international effort.

Security. For everyone. Huge issue. And with it trust. Trust in the government to keep people safe, to deal with people fairly and equitably, and to do so without increasing divides such as checkpoints, barriers, limitations on movement.

Trust will be a long, slow build. But if we can prevent the importation of weapons into Gaza, then terrorism can be reduced or eliminated from a practical standpoint.

Demographics. 2 million more people who are Muslim, in a state with a religious identity that is Jewish and Jews are a minority. Understandably those in a minority, particularly given decades of conflict, will be concerned.

Gaza doesn't tip the demographics. Especially as a separately governed province. I think what you are asking is how does Israel preserve its Jewish identity if/when Jews are no longer the majority. Which, to me, is asking which set of moral values takes precedence when there are two competing sets of moral values? Tough question.

There are plenty of countries where minority populations and majority populations live together without issue despite history but the key to success seems to forging a strong national identity that overcones tribal, ethnic and religious identities.

Agreed.