Israel Rescues Another Hostage

[Lisa558]

That is not entirely correct. The majority, over a hundred were released in November I believe. Since then, very few.




Really? Hamas has now started actually murdering hostages. You don’t seem very concerned.

It is time to negotiate an end to this.

What punishment should be given HAMAS for the murders? Rewarding them via “negotiation” will simply encourage them to do more of the same.

 

[Lisa558]

Ethnic cleansing is a war crime no matter what words you use to make it palatable.

I am glad not everyone agrees with you about Palestinian refugees, it is too reminiscent of attitudes towards Jewish refugees at one time. I fully support allowing them to come because as refugees they are heavily vetted.

Most of them agree with HAMAS. You can’t vet for antisemitic attitudes.

And there’s no ethnic cleansing going on. The only side that wants ethnic cleansing is the Muslim terrorists who TOLD US their objective is to rid Israel of all her Jews.

And yet you accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing. Arabs have ethnically cleansed their countries of nearly 1 million Jews.

And please….do not compare the innocent Jewish German citizens to the Palestinians who teach their children that killing Jews is a worthy goal. It is quite disgusting to make that comparison, and reveals your pro-Muslim bias. (The pro-Muslim bias will become even more of a problem if Kamala wins.)

BTW, the anti-Jew riots are starting up again at the liberal universities.

 

[Coyote]

What punishment should be given HAMAS for the murders? Rewarding them via “negotiation” will simply encourage them to do more of the same.

Negotiating isn’t rewarding anyone because everyone has to give a little or a lot.

Hamas’ leadership has been accused of war crimes in the international courts and will be held accountable. I suspect that if an investigation is ever allowed there will evidence of more crimes against both Israeli’s and Gazans. Israel will also likely manage to assassinate a good many including those who participated in Oct 7. They’re quite good at that.

 

[Coyote]

Most of them agree with HAMAS. You can’t vet for antisemitic attitudes.

Actually it is very hard to determine how they feel about Hamas. Apparently Hamas has been cooking the polls. You can’t vet attitudes and (other than expressing active support of violence or affiliations with terrorist groups) you shouldn’t. Everyone is entitled to their private beliefs because those beliefs can always change, and even if not, they are private. That applies to antisemites, islamophobes and racists alike. You can’t just assume all Palestinians are concerned only with hating Jews, most will likely put they and their families survival, having a job, a safe environment for their kids, etc as a much more important priority.

And there’s no ethnic cleansing going on. The only side that wants ethnic cleansing is the Muslim terrorists who TOLD US their objective is to rid Israel of all her Jews.

YOU were proposing ethnic cleansing and you are proposing that we just call it “population transfers”.

And yet you accuse Israel of ethnic cleansing. Arabs have ethnically cleansed their countries of nearly 1 million Jews.

I’m accusing you of calling for ethnic cleansing.

And please….do not compare the innocent Jewish German citizens to the Palestinians who teach their children that killing Jews is a worthy goal. It is quite disgusting to make that comparison, and reveals your pro-Muslim bias. (The pro-Muslim bias will become even more of a problem if Kamala wins.)

There are a lot of innocent people.

 

[Shusha]

This multi-decade conflict is not one sided, with the heros on one team and the villains on the other.

Oh, you are not going to like my response to this, but here it is. There can no longer be an argument about villains after October 7. One side IS the villain. Now, if not then. Whatever you want to say about "occupation", "settlements", Arab or Palestinian "self-determination", "free Palestine", "apartheid" and all the other bullshit. Mass slaughter of civilians, rape, abductions of children and Holocaust survivors, captives for nearly a year, executions to prevent rescue, there is no coming back from that evil.

 

[Shusha]

Is it a hard absolute or is it just another Netanyahu curveball to thwart an end to the war?

It is the only acceptable way forward. It is not thwarting the end of the war - it is the concrete proof that the war is over. And that Hamas has been defeated. Not just for now, but for good. For the benefit of both Israelis and Gazans. It's not a political hand-wavey, it's the only practical solution. No more smuggling = no more violence. Done. Finished.

 

[Coyote]

Oh, you are not going to like my response to this, but here it is. There can no longer be an argument about villains after October 7. One side IS the villain. Now, if not then. Whatever you want to say about "occupation", "settlements", Arab or Palestinian "self-determination", "free Palestine", "apartheid" and all the other bullshit. Mass slaughter of civilians, rape, abductions of children and Holocaust survivors, captives for nearly a year, executions to prevent rescue, there is no coming back from that evil.

In this specific conflict, October 7, Hamas is the villain.

But that doesn’t excuse Israel if war crimes are committed for example. Good can become bad depending on their actions.

 

[Shusha]

What else do you propose that won’t be a continuation of the conditions that have been in play for decades and led to things like this - another endless occupation under a military justice system?

The least odious solution is a sovereign Israel. It's going to suck for 50 years. For everyone. But 50 years from now, the Gazan Arabs of Israel will be proud of their nation in the same way that Arab Israelis are now. They will be fighting for it, instead of fighting against it.

And maybe, one day, after many decades of peace, if they still want it, the people of Gaza can secede from Israel and form their own state.

 

[Lisa558]

Negotiating isn’t rewarding anyone because everyone has to give a little or a lot.

Hamas’ leadership has been accused of war crimes in the international courts and will be held accountable. I suspect that if an investigation is ever allowed there will evidence of more crimes against both Israeli’s and Gazans. Israel will also likely manage to assassinate a good many including those who participated in Oct 7. They’re quite good at that.

And boom…..HAMAS just murdered hostages, and you’re back to complaining how Israel is good at “assassinating” people. You just can’t help but get your dig in against the Jew country.

Gd help us if the CAIR-living Kamala gets in. She will be the first anti-Israel president we’ve ever had, and the pro-Muslim Obama will be the one directing her. Antisemitism will skyrocket even more. My friend just sent her daughter off to Cornell a week ago, and there’s already the assaults against Jews goimg on.

 

[Lisa558]

The least odious solution is a sovereign Israel. It's going to suck for 50 years. For everyone. But 50 years from now, the Gazan Arabs of Israel will be proud of their nation in the same way that Arab Israelis are now. They will be fighting for it, instead of fighting against it.

And maybe, one day, after many decades of peace, if they still want it, the people of Gaza can secede from Israel and form their own state.

True. It will take a least two generations for Israel to end the anti-Jew indoctrination the Palestinians teach their children.

 

[Lisa558]

If Israel had the morals of the Islamic terrorists, they would have bombed the entire region to smithereens 48 hours after the cockroaches hunted down and tortured as many Jews to death as possible.

That Israel did not is a testament to their restraint.

 

[Lisa558]

It is the only acceptable way forward. It is not thwarting the end of the war - it is the concrete proof that the war is over. And that Hamas has been defeated. Not just for now, but for good. For the benefit of both Israelis and Gazans. It's not a political hand-wavey, it's the only practical solution. No more smuggling = no more violence. Done. Finished.

She likes to blame the Jew for the situation, rather than the evil monsters who just killed six more hostages - after they were abused for 10 months.

Why not blame the leader of HAMAS? His name is never even mentioned. I don’t even know what it is.

 

[Coyote]

It is the only acceptable way forward. It is not thwarting the end of the war - it is the concrete proof that the war is over. And that Hamas has been defeated. Not just for now, but for good. For the benefit of both Israelis and Gazans. It's not a political hand-wavey, it's the only practical solution. No more smuggling = no more violence. Done. Finished.

Why is it the only acceptable way forward?

And why do you think Hamas can be defeated in entirety solely by military means?

It has been pointed out that Hamas is an “idea” and you can’t defeat an idea that way. You can “debulk” Hamas like a tumor but then they splinter and turn the conflict into a guerilla war (cancer analogy again, Hamas metastizes). If you don’t change the conditions that led to Hamas becoming so strong and/or offer a better idea to replace, then Hamas or something similar will continue.

Hamas has been significantly degraded. Isn’t it time to start putting together other solutions? They still hold the hostages. They are changing the conflict to one where they put Israel at a disadvantage (guerilla). Gaza is destroyed and unloveable for the most part. Polio is back.

As of yet, to the best of my knowledge there has been no serious attempt to discuss the future of Gaza. Why?

 

[Lisa558]

Actually it is very hard to determine how they feel about Hamas. Apparently Hamas has been cooking the polls. You can’t vet attitudes and (other than expressing active support of violence or affiliations with terrorist groups) you shouldn’t. Everyone is entitled to their private beliefs because those beliefs can always change, and even if not, they are private. That applies to antisemites, islamophobes and racists alike. You can’t just assume all Palestinians are concerned only with hating Jews, most will likely put they and their families survival, having a job, a safe environment for their kids, etc as a much more important priority.





YOU were proposing ethnic cleansing and you are proposing that we just call it “population transfers”.



I’m accusing you of calling for ethnic cleansing.



There are a lot of innocent people.

The bigger problem RIGHT NOW is antisemites, so spare me your tears about Islamophobes. The lib universities are right back to pulling their anti-Israel crap and getting Jewish kids assaulted - the first week of school.

When Muslims aren’t allowed to cross the campus quad, or assaulted and spit on if they attempt it, I’ll object to it. Right now, the bigger concern is the Jew-hate being spread by the liberals.

 

[Lisa558]

Why is it the only acceptable way forward?

And why do you think Hamas can be defeated in entirety solely by military means?

It has been pointed out that Hamas is an “idea” and you can’t defeat an idea that way. You can “debulk” Hamas like a tumor but then they splinter and turn the conflict into a guerilla war (cancer analogy again, Hamas metastizes). If you don’t change the conditions that led to Hamas becoming so strong and/or offer a better idea to replace, then Hamas or something similar will continue.

Hamas has been significantly degraded. Isn’t it time to start putting together other solutions? They still hold the hostages. They are changing the conflict to one where they put Israel at a disadvantage (guerilla). Gaza is destroyed and unloveable for the most part. Polio is back.

As of yet, to the best of my knowledge there has been no serious attempt to discuss the future of Gaza. Why?

“Seriously degrading” the HAMAS cockroaches isn’t sufficient, and Israel knows it. They have to be eliminated entirely.

Negotiating with Islamic terrorists just encourages more of their terrorism. They need to all be killed.

 

[Shusha]

Why is it the only acceptable way forward?

Because continued smuggling of weapons, money, and terrorist training benefits no one.


Longer post in the works to respond to the rest.

 

[Coyote]

She likes to blame the Jew for the situation, rather than the evil monsters who just killed six more hostages - after they were abused for 10 months.

Why not blame the leader of HAMAS? His name is never even mentioned. I don’t even know what it is.

Oh brother.

The least odious solution is a sovereign Israel. It's going to suck for 50 years. For everyone. But 50 years from now, the Gazan Arabs of Israel will be proud of their nation in the same way that Arab Israelis are now. They will be fighting for it, instead of fighting against it.

And maybe, one day, after many decades of peace, if they still want it, the people of Gaza can secede from Israel and form their own state.

It is an interesting thought and not impossible. The difficulties would be many.

The Palestinians would need to make a cultural shift from an identity rooted in conflict and hatred towards Jews to something else. Changing their educational system for a start, to remove the ideology of violence while still preserving their culture, identity and history. Heavy lift.

The Israeli’s would have to address their own demons. The inequalities and anti-Arab bigotry in their own system, and like it or not, acknowledging that events like Nakba are part of their shared history as well.

But the real obstacle imo? Religion. On both sides.

 

[Coyote]

Because continued smuggling of weapons, money, and terrorist training benefits no one.


Longer post in the works to respond to the rest.

But is that the only way to handle it?

 

[Shusha]

And why do you think Hamas can be defeated in entirety solely by military means?

Hamas CAN be (and largely has been) defeated by military means.

It has been pointed out that Hamas is an “idea” and you can’t defeat an idea that way.

Hamas is not an idea. It's a government (now dismantled). It is a terrorist group (mostly "martyred"). It is a group of people with the capacity for violence (largely incapacitated).

The idea that needs to be defeated is the idea that Israel should or can be destroyed. That idea is only going to be defeated through close and peaceful and sustained contact with Israelis and Jews. And that can only happen under Israeli sovereignty.

Isn’t it time to start putting together other solutions?

We have the solution. We've had it for a hundred years. We just need the guts to implement it.

 

[Coyote]

The bigger problem RIGHT NOW is antisemites, so spare me your tears about Islamophobes. The lib universities are right back to pulling their anti-Israel crap and getting Jewish kids assaulted - the first week of school.

When Muslims aren’t allowed to cross the campus quad, or assaulted and spit on if they attempt it, I’ll object to it. Right now, the bigger concern is the Jew-hate being spread by the liberals.

Look. I get that you hate Muslims, ok? You hate a lot of groups. So do others. That’s part of the problem. Hate (and ignorance and fear) drives violence and whether you acknowledge it or not, the numbers don’t lie. You can pretend it isn’t a problem but it is. Talk to those affected.

It isn’t a competition.

And I’m not sure what this diversion has to do with Hamas or ethnic cleansing.