Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15

[Shusha]

Gaza has to do ONE thing. Just one. Its the simplest thing in the world. Just stop the violence towards Israel.

They did. Israel wouldn't stop the violence towards them.

When was that?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

A couple of points here.

BLUF: You will be hard-pressed to find someone among the demonstrators/protesters that are actually RoR criteria qualified. In fact, 95% of the demonstrators are merely descendants that are registered for services.≈

• A/RES/181(II) 29 November 1947 •, was an Offer (made on the part of the UN) and Acceptance (Accepted by Jewish Agency but not by the Arab Higher Committee).

✪ A/RES/181(II) has been generally accepted as a "non-binding agreement.
✪ The Jewish Agency, in the acceptance, made no commitment to the Arab Higher Committee that rejected the recommendations. The only agreement made was to the UN under the UN Palestine Commission (UNPC).
✪ On May 15th, the Provisional Israeli Government announce their independence and on May 17th (Press Release PAL/169) the UNPC announced Sine Die and that the "the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."​

International Law cannot force a nation to accept any immigrant number; except in special circumstances. Issues such as illegal migration, asylum, integration of foreigners and immigrants, inter

According to international law (and reiterated in Resolution 181), all of the Palestinians who normally lived in the territory that became Israel are Israeli citizens. That would be 2/3 of the people who now live in Gaza. It is not about immigration.

(COMMENT)

​

The A/RES/181 (II) [Part I (Future constitution and government of Palestine) --- Section "C" (Declarations) --- Chapter (Citizenship, international conventions and financial obligations) does not address the issue of refugees.

(NOTE: A word search revealed that the word "refugee" does not appear anywhere in the text of the 29 November Resolution. It should be noted that under Paragraph 9(5) of Steps Prepatory to Independence --- in relationship to elections to the Constituent Assembly which shall be conducted on democratic lines the Resolution States: During the transitional period no Jew shall be permitted to establish residence in the area of the proposed Arab State, and no Arab shall be permitted to establish residence in the area of the proposed Jewish State, except by special leave of the Commission.

I assume that you meant to cite:

SECTION II Treaty of Peace with Turkey Signed at Lausanne, July 24, 1923.
NATIONALITY.
ARTICLE 30.

"⇒ Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred." | ⇒ This does not deal with refugees.​

• A/RES/194 (III) 11 December 1948 • Paragraph 11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;

This Resolution, sometimes referred to as the Right of Return (RoR) Resolution, is questionable as to it being binding, since it was written before the four Armistice Agreements of 1949, and that in later times, the Treaties (in particular the 1979 and 1994 treaties with Egypt and Jordan) remained silent on the issue (without prejudice towards the Arab Palestinian).

What does contain that language is the Consolidated Eligibility and Registration Instructions (CERI) developed by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA): A type A1 Palestinian Refugee is:

Persons who meet UNRWA’s Palestine Refugee criteria:

These are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict. Palestine Refugees, and descendants of Palestine refugee males, including legally adopted children, are eligible to register for UNRWA services. The Agency accepts new applications from persons who wish to be registered as Palestine Refugees. Once they are registered with UNRWA, persons in this category are referred to as Registered Refugees or as Registered Palestine Refugees.​

Well, the Gaza Strip does NOT have a population of two-thirds at 70 years old. Less than 3% of the Gaza Strip Population fall into that category. Persons who do not meet UNRWA’s (Type 2 persons) Palestine Refugee criteria are registered for the purposes of receiving UNRWA services, these persons are not counted as part of the official Registered Refugee population of the Agency.

Interestingly enough, the CIA Factbook on the Gaza Strip indicates that:

Life expectancy at birth:

total population: 74.2 years
male: 72.5 years
female: 75.9 years (2017 est.)​

Age structure:

0-14 years: 44.78% (male 412,644/female 391,275)
15-24 years: 21.25% (male 192,292/female 189,166)
25-54 years: 28.02% (male 246,518/female 256,543)
55-64 years: 3.4% (male 31,961/female 29,119)
65 years and over: 2.54% (male 23,729/female 21,936) (2017 est.)
​

Most Respectfully,
R

Nice piece of irrelevant verbosity.

In international law, the people stay with their land. In the rule of nationality and state succession, the people acquire citizenship in the state that succeeds a predecessor state. We see this in the Treaty of Lausanne, the Palestine Citizenship Order, and in Resolution 181. Even though Resolution 181 was non binding and never implemented, the UN frequently references already existing international law.

 

[Shusha]

But the real issue is what has led to this. Gaza’s economy is in shambles, it’s people feel hopeless, so much so that many have been attempting extremely dangerous means to get themselves and their families out. They are a people with no future, trapped in an area behind a blockade that has gone on for years and effectively destroyed them. And it does not seem to have accomplished anything.

The blockade is not the cause of this (though obviously it contributes).

And I disagree, the blockade has accomplished the security of Israel and greatly lessened the violence and the effects of violence.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

A couple of points here.

BLUF: You will be hard-pressed to find someone among the demonstrators/protesters that are actually RoR criteria qualified. In fact, 95% of the demonstrators are merely descendants that are registered for services.≈

• A/RES/181(II) 29 November 1947 •, was an Offer (made on the part of the UN) and Acceptance (Accepted by Jewish Agency but not by the Arab Higher Committee).

✪ A/RES/181(II) has been generally accepted as a "non-binding agreement.
✪ The Jewish Agency, in the acceptance, made no commitment to the Arab Higher Committee that rejected the recommendations. The only agreement made was to the UN under the UN Palestine Commission (UNPC).
✪ On May 15th, the Provisional Israeli Government announce their independence and on May 17th (Press Release PAL/169) the UNPC announced Sine Die and that the "the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."​

International Law cannot force a nation to accept any immigrant number; except in special circumstances. Issues such as illegal migration, asylum, integration of foreigners and immigrants, inter

According to international law (and reiterated in Resolution 181), all of the Palestinians who normally lived in the territory that became Israel are Israeli citizens. That would be 2/3 of the people who now live in Gaza. It is not about immigration.

(COMMENT)

​

The A/RES/181 (II) [Part I (Future constitution and government of Palestine) --- Section "C" (Declarations) --- Chapter (Citizenship, international conventions and financial obligations) does not address the issue of refugees.

(NOTE: A word search revealed that the word "refugee" does not appear anywhere in the text of the 29 November Resolution. It should be noted that under Paragraph 9(5) of Steps Prepatory to Independence --- in relationship to elections to the Constituent Assembly which shall be conducted on democratic lines the Resolution States: During the transitional period no Jew shall be permitted to establish residence in the area of the proposed Arab State, and no Arab shall be permitted to establish residence in the area of the proposed Jewish State, except by special leave of the Commission.

I assume that you meant to cite:

SECTION II Treaty of Peace with Turkey Signed at Lausanne, July 24, 1923.
NATIONALITY.
ARTICLE 30.

"⇒ Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred." | ⇒ This does not deal with refugees.​

• A/RES/194 (III) 11 December 1948 • Paragraph 11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;

This Resolution, sometimes referred to as the Right of Return (RoR) Resolution, is questionable as to it being binding, since it was written before the four Armistice Agreements of 1949, and that in later times, the Treaties (in particular the 1979 and 1994 treaties with Egypt and Jordan) remained silent on the issue (without prejudice towards the Arab Palestinian).

What does contain that language is the Consolidated Eligibility and Registration Instructions (CERI) developed by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA): A type A1 Palestinian Refugee is:

Persons who meet UNRWA’s Palestine Refugee criteria:

These are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict. Palestine Refugees, and descendants of Palestine refugee males, including legally adopted children, are eligible to register for UNRWA services. The Agency accepts new applications from persons who wish to be registered as Palestine Refugees. Once they are registered with UNRWA, persons in this category are referred to as Registered Refugees or as Registered Palestine Refugees.​

Well, the Gaza Strip does NOT have a population of two-thirds at 70 years old. Less than 3% of the Gaza Strip Population fall into that category. Persons who do not meet UNRWA’s (Type 2 persons) Palestine Refugee criteria are registered for the purposes of receiving UNRWA services, these persons are not counted as part of the official Registered Refugee population of the Agency.

Interestingly enough, the CIA Factbook on the Gaza Strip indicates that:

Life expectancy at birth:

total population: 74.2 years
male: 72.5 years
female: 75.9 years (2017 est.)​

Age structure:

0-14 years: 44.78% (male 412,644/female 391,275)
15-24 years: 21.25% (male 192,292/female 189,166)
25-54 years: 28.02% (male 246,518/female 256,543)
55-64 years: 3.4% (male 31,961/female 29,119)
65 years and over: 2.54% (male 23,729/female 21,936) (2017 est.)
​

Most Respectfully,
R

The UNWRA does not define who is a refugee. It merely defines who is eligible for aid.

 

[Shusha]

Oh please. What's moral about shooting someone while they fish? You want them to stop the violence, yet you won't end the occupation. I'm sorry dear, it's the occupation that is causing all the violence. End the occupation and you will end the violence.

No, you are reversing cause and effect. The blockade (there is no occupation) is a response to violence -- not the other way around. When the leader of the government is going around publicly saying, "Let's tear out the hearts of the Israelis" it sure doesn't compel Israel to have an open border.

And Israel is not shooting people while they fish. Israel is preventing weapons smuggling and attacks.

Like this one just last month.

Israel has also met with Palestinians and is extending the permitted fishing zone for the spring fishing season despite the unrest in Gaza and the vicious incitement there.

So knock off with the appeals to emotion and the lies.

 

[Shusha]

Why not use teargas and smoke bombs instead of live ammo?

They did. Live fire was used only when a weapon was apparent and the rioter was within the exclusion zone of 300m. OR when the rioter was apparently unarmed but was within the more strict exclusion zone of 100m and refused to comply with non-lethal demands to leave that area.

Why can't Gazans have an ACTUAL peaceful protest or at the least just stay away from the fence?

 

[Shusha]

Oh, and ANOTHER IED exploded at the fence yesterday.

 

[Shusha]

Not to mention having been on the receiving end of multiple verbal warnings and non-lethal riot control measures, including warning shots in the air.

Burning a tire is not the same as firing a weapon, yet Israel treats it as such. Why can't they burn tires?

Besides the obvious harmful environmental and health effects, and the ensuing complaints of "tire shortages" -- it provides cover for rioters approaching the fence. You know, to place bombs and such.

What POSSIBLE reason is there to burn tires? Its stupid on all levels. Not what Gandhi would do.

 

[Shusha]

Yes...why can’t they? They are trapped, their children are trapped...no future and leaders who are worthless.

There is a difference between being unable to leave Gaza and being able to enter Israel or Egypt.

Their leaders are worthless. They should fix that, don't you think?

Question: To what extent are Israel and Egypt responsible for the citizens of Gaza? By that I do not mean humanitarian issues -- but sovereignty issues.

Question: What is the solution to the humanitarian problem there? Should conditions there be forcibly changed? How? Should someone force a takeover of government there? Who? Israel? Egypt? Sweden? Who?

Or do we just let them voluntarily emigrate to third-party nations?

 

[Shusha]

Where is the supposed drone? Evidence supporting the claim?

Please don't fall too deep into the "but it never happened" hole. The individual in question was a known Hamas member, using a drone to fly over Israel's forces at the time of the shooting. The CONTEXT is that Gazans and Palestinians have used false ID (press, medical personnel, etc) in order to disguise terrorist activity.

 

[Shusha]

In international law, the people stay with their land. In the rule of nationality and state succession, the people acquire citizenship in the state that succeeds a predecessor state. We see this in the Treaty of Lausanne, the Palestine Citizenship Order, and in Resolution 181. Even though Resolution 181 was non binding and never implemented, the UN frequently references already existing international law.

By claiming they are all actually Israeli citizens you have effectively said that the entire territory is under Israeli sovereignty. I'm pretty sure you don't want to go with that.

The Arab Palestinians and Gazans have effectively renounced (or refused) Israeli citizenship. They supposedly want independence. They can't have it both ways. And neither can you.

 

[Humanity]

Oh please. What's moral about shooting someone while they fish? You want them to stop the violence, yet you won't end the occupation. I'm sorry dear, it's the occupation that is causing all the violence. End the occupation and you will end the violence.

No, you are reversing cause and effect. The blockade (there is no occupation) is a response to violence -- not the other way around. When the leader of the government is going around publicly saying, "Let's tear out the hearts of the Israelis" it sure doesn't compel Israel to have an open border.

And Israel is not shooting people while they fish. Israel is preventing weapons smuggling and attacks.

Like this one just last month.

Israel has also met with Palestinians and is extending the permitted fishing zone for the spring fishing season despite the unrest in Gaza and the vicious incitement there.

So knock off with the appeals to emotion and the lies.

When a country blockades and controls 80% of another country that is occupation by any other name!

 

[Humanity]

Where is the supposed drone? Evidence supporting the claim?

Please don't fall too deep into the "but it never happened" hole. The individual in question was a known Hamas member, using a drone to fly over Israel's forces at the time of the shooting. The CONTEXT is that Gazans and Palestinians have used false ID (press, medical personnel, etc) in order to disguise terrorist activity.

Hell Coyote.... What are you thinking?!?!?!

You surely don't expect any supporting evidence to any of their claims do you?

Just accept what the IDF says like a good boy and all is good with the world!

 

[Hollie]

Oh please. What's moral about shooting someone while they fish? You want them to stop the violence, yet you won't end the occupation. I'm sorry dear, it's the occupation that is causing all the violence. End the occupation and you will end the violence.

No, you are reversing cause and effect. The blockade (there is no occupation) is a response to violence -- not the other way around. When the leader of the government is going around publicly saying, "Let's tear out the hearts of the Israelis" it sure doesn't compel Israel to have an open border.

And Israel is not shooting people while they fish. Israel is preventing weapons smuggling and attacks.

Like this one just last month.

Israel has also met with Palestinians and is extending the permitted fishing zone for the spring fishing season despite the unrest in Gaza and the vicious incitement there.

So knock off with the appeals to emotion and the lies.

When a country blockades and controls 80% of another country that is occupation by any other name!

Gaza is not a country. Further, actions speak with the utmost clarity and in both words and actions, the various islamic terrorist franchises operating in Gaza'istan have made it clear that the Hamas Charter is not simply a document but an ideology that is still being pursued.

Make all the excuses you wish for islamic terrorism but Israel is required to defend itself every day.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Oh please. What's moral about shooting someone while they fish? You want them to stop the violence, yet you won't end the occupation. I'm sorry dear, it's the occupation that is causing all the violence. End the occupation and you will end the violence.

No, you are reversing cause and effect. The blockade (there is no occupation) is a response to violence -- not the other way around. When the leader of the government is going around publicly saying, "Let's tear out the hearts of the Israelis" it sure doesn't compel Israel to have an open border.

And Israel is not shooting people while they fish. Israel is preventing weapons smuggling and attacks.

Like this one just last month.

Israel has also met with Palestinians and is extending the permitted fishing zone for the spring fishing season despite the unrest in Gaza and the vicious incitement there.

So knock off with the appeals to emotion and the lies.

When a country blockades and controls 80% of another country that is occupation by any other name!

When a country allows rockets to be fired at civilians of another country that is war by any other name!

 

[Coyote]

Where is the supposed drone? Evidence supporting the claim?

Please don't fall too deep into the "but it never happened" hole. The individual in question was a known Hamas member, using a drone to fly over Israel's forces at the time of the shooting. The CONTEXT is that Gazans and Palestinians have used false ID (press, medical personnel, etc) in order to disguise terrorist activity.

he is also a journalist and Israel has harassed journalists before. We have conflicting accounts of what occurred so .I would like to know what evidence there is of a drone

 

[Coyote]

Israeli Defense Minister Liberman has said Murtaja was a terrorist but has to offer and substantiation of that claim right? We DO know, however that he was a journalist and clearly marked.

He was shot in the stomach which is brutal and he was unarmed.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israeli Defense Minister Liberman has said Murtaja was a terrorist but has to offer and substantiation of that claim right? We DO know, howrver that he wad. Journalist and clearly marked.

He was shot in the stomach which is brutal and he was unarmed.

Everybody is a terrorist to Israel.

It is part of their terrorist propaganda campaign.

 

[Shusha]

When a country blockades and controls 80% of another country that is occupation by any other name!

I have no idea where you get that Israel controls 80% of Gaza.

But will you just try to hear me for a second.

The government of Gaza is saying to its people, "Let's break down the fence, march through Israel ripping the hearts out of Israelis until the entire territory is under Arab rule again." They are backing that up with acts of lethal, physical violence: bombs and guns and knives. They are murdering Jewish Israelis in their homes, in their streets, in their holy places. They are smuggling in weapons -- larger, more target-capable weapons -- to be set against Israeli towns.

Can you just hear that for a moment? How could you possibly believe that the SOLUTION to that problem is to have an open border? Or let's say you do believe that it is the solution to the problem. How are you going to get the Israelis and the Jewish people to accept that risk to their physical safety? How are you going to convince them?



And yes, I understand that Gazans are being shot and killed. And yes, I understand that some of them are civilians. And, yes, I understand that this painful and horrible and should not have to happen.

But there are not 30,000 civilians and terrorists disguised as civilians massed at the Gaza border trying to get into Gaza. There are no Israelis placing bombs on the fence line. Or smuggling knives and grenades into Gaza to murder families in their homes. There is no speech by the Israeli government saying that they will rip the hearts out of Arabs until Greater Israel takes over all of Gaza.

Why can't the Gazans have an actual peaceful protest? Where they sit at a safe distance from the fence. Dance, have picnics, tell stories, make speeches of peace and brotherhood and co-operation. Why can't SOMEONE on the Gaza side take down the swastika? Why can't they bring candy to the fence instead of bombs? If they did THAT there could be no possible way for anyone to side with Israel if she shoots them.

 

[rylah]

THEY WERE NOT UNARMED. Every dead pal was wielding a weapon, slingshot Molotov cocktail or grenade. Do keep up RETARD.

Where is the weapon, you little Israeli kiss-ass?

You ignore facts the dead Palestinians were all wielding a weapon when shot. The non lethal responses are to those that are unarmed and close on the border past the listed allowed point. All LEGAL MORAL and in self defense.

The journalist that was shot had a weapon?

flew a drone over our soldiers.

Where is the supposed drone? Evidence supporting the claim?

Actually I looked for and couldn't find anything yet, except for a video of him laying in a medical tent.
From what I see he was wounded standing in profile, with his side or angled, this seems logical since he had a vest but had the bullet exit through the left side on the lower back.

If he was shot knowingly that there was nothing wrong done - it's wrong and stupid, must be dealt..
If he was shot by mistake with no intention many other facts have to be taken in account, and compared to similar cases worldwide, journalists take risks knowingly when they go into violent clashes.
If he operated a drone there's no argument for his case at all.
If he was shot on order for being an active Hamas member, and identified as such - regular military conduct against an enemy.