Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15

[Shusha]

he is also a journalist and Israel has harassed journalists before.

Palestinians have disguised terrorists as journalists. Context matters. That fact matters. It CHANGES the way Israel views the sanctity of the Press vest. If Palestinians do not respect that sanctity it is ludicrous to expect Israel to do so.

We have conflicting accounts of what occurred so .I would like to know what evidence there is of a drone

The individual in question was known to use drones. So, it fits. Its not out of nowhere. And since all evidence points to Israel being EXTREMELY precise in its targeting over the past few days, it stands to reason that this particular individual was targeted and not an incidental hit, a mistake or victim of a wide-spread lethal use of force.

The question to really ask, rather than, "Did this really happen?" is whether use of drones by journalists is cause for lethal use of force, when he is a known member of a military wing of what is deemed a terrorist organization. (The individual, btw, was outside the 300m no-go zone at 350m. And I think that is relevant since that appears to be unique. Also, if I was to speculate, and this is just speculation, I'd imagine the stomach wound is a targeting error. Probably intended to be non-lethal, incapacitating shot to the lower limbs.)



Edited to add: I just read rylah 's post and I agree with that list of possibilities. And probably a better way of discussing it than my speculation.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: Nothing you have said, changes what I said in the least. In fact, much of what you said is out temporal context.

Nice piece of irrelevant verbosity.

In international law, the people stay with their land. In the rule of nationality and state succession, the people acquire citizenship in the state that succeeds a predecessor state. We see this in the Treaty of Lausanne, the Palestine Citizenship Order, and in Resolution 181. Even though Resolution 181 was non binding and never implemented, the UN frequently references already existing international law.

(COMMENT)

I'm not sure the Treaty of Lausanne actually deals with successor state. Why? (You might ask) Because once a new state is declared, it becomes self-governing; ruled by domestic law under the principle of self-determination.

The Rule of the Successor State has no set international and customary law. Currently, the relatively new Vienna Convention on Succession of States only came into force in late 1996. It was not available during the duration of the Mandate Period; nor during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. It was NOT available in 1920 when the Allied Powers set the conditions and framework from which the Mandates and the Orders-in-Council flowed.

At the time of the Mandate, there was such a thing as the Government of Palestine, but it was an entity and not a self-governing state; the government was in fact run by the UK (with the assistance of the Jewish Agency, but NOT the Arab Higher Committee). There was no successor state. The Nationality (ethnic based) and Citizenship (residence based) were determined by the Mandatory Rule.

NOTE: You will note that matters of nationality were only addressed in Paragraph 2 of the Annex to the Convention.​

And then, on thiese issues, UN A/RES/181 (II) does not even apply since the peace treaties are in place and the Arab Higher Committee formally reject the recommendations or any thing derived from it.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hollie]

Israeli Defense Minister Liberman has said Murtaja was a terrorist but has to offer and substantiation of that claim right? We DO know, howrver that he wad. Journalist and clearly marked.

He was shot in the stomach which is brutal and he was unarmed.

Everybody is a terrorist to Israel.

It is part of their terrorist propaganda campaign.

Link?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ Coyote, et al,

The HAMAS Drones have been around for more than five years.

See: • Hamas drone injects new element into Arab-Israeli conflict •
By David Zucchino and Ralph Vartabedian | Jul 15, 2014

See: • Hamas Publishes Photo of a Drone It Says It Built •
By ISABEL KERSHNER and PATRICK J. LYONS | JULY 14, 2014

Where is the supposed drone? Evidence supporting the claim?

Please don't fall too deep into the "but it never happened" hole. The individual in question was a known Hamas member, using a drone to fly over Israel's forces at the time of the shooting. The CONTEXT is that Gazans and Palestinians have used false ID (press, medical personnel, etc) in order to disguise terrorist activity.

he is also a journalist and Israel has harassed journalists before. We have conflicting accounts of what occurred so .I would like to know what evidence there is of a drone

(COMMENT)

​

Now, you might ask! how credible is it. I don't think it is much bigger than a toy. But even a modified toy, complete with Blue Tooth (cause everything is better with Blue Tooth). In 2010, the Chinese had a one-inch cude camera, which could broadcast better than a Canadian football field (Goal Post to Goal Post) decent BW video. It could easily be used to view open fields of view along the border and fensesecurity barrier.

I suspect the 2014 picture of the HAMAS Drone has greatly improved and looks much more sophisticate.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: Nothing you have said, changes what I said in the least. In fact, much of what you said is out temporal context.

Nice piece of irrelevant verbosity.

In international law, the people stay with their land. In the rule of nationality and state succession, the people acquire citizenship in the state that succeeds a predecessor state. We see this in the Treaty of Lausanne, the Palestine Citizenship Order, and in Resolution 181. Even though Resolution 181 was non binding and never implemented, the UN frequently references already existing international law.

(COMMENT)

I'm not sure the Treaty of Lausanne actually deals with successor state. Why? (You might ask) Because once a new state is declared, it becomes self-governing; ruled by domestic law under the principle of self-determination.

The Rule of the Successor State has no set international and customary law. Currently, the relatively new Vienna Convention on Succession of States only came into force in late 1996. It was not available during the duration of the Mandate Period; nor during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. It was NOT available in 1920 when the Allied Powers set the conditions and framework from which the Mandates and the Orders-in-Council flowed.

At the time of the Mandate, there was such a thing as the Government of Palestine, but it was an entity and not a self-governing state; the government was in fact run by the UK (with the assistance of the Jewish Agency, but NOT the Arab Higher Committee). There was no successor state. The Nationality (ethnic based) and Citizenship (residence based) were determined by the Mandatory Rule.

NOTE: You will note that matters of nationality were only addressed in Paragraph 2 of the Annex to the Convention.​

And then, on thiese issues, UN A/RES/181 (II) does not even apply since the peace treaties are in place and the Arab Higher Committee formally reject the recommendations or any thing derived from it.

Most Respectfully,
R

How does that refute anything I said?

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Apartheid and genocide.........Palestinians will soon be the majority.

Wow, that's some weak ass genocide!!

It's always interesting to see gay liberals defending the people who would happily throw them from a rooftop.

 

[Billo_Really]

Israel doesn't treat it as such otherwise there wouldn't be 20 dead but 10,000

I saw Palestinians just standing there and getting shot.

Israel is evil.

 

[Billo_Really]

The video also didn't show Hamas leader open incitement to violence at the protest.


Day 1 of the protest - 2 men armed with rifles approach the boarder, take position and engage.
- watch the video.

Okay, that was a little over the top.

 

[Billo_Really]

You ignore facts the dead Palestinians were all wielding a weapon when shot. The non lethal responses are to those that are unarmed and close on the border past the listed allowed point. All LEGAL MORAL and in self defense.

No they were not all wielding weapons. All the videos I've seen they were unarmed protesters getting shot for the same reason a dog licks' its balls.

 

[Billo_Really]

Yes...why can’t they? They are trapped, their children are trapped...no future and leaders who are worthless.

They're worthless by Israeli design. The biggest reason Hamas is hated is because they won't kiss Israel's ass, like Fatah does. And Israeli's can't sleep at night unless someone somewhere is kissing their ass. Which is the one thing, they will never get from me.

 

[Billo_Really]

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ Billo_Really, et al,

I'm not sure if we are even looking at the current event in the same level of practical application and understanding.

(BLUF) It is the past criminal history of the Gazan People that painted themselves into the quarantine box. If anything, the control measures should be ratcheted down event more...

Border Protection and Border Management are ultimately a domestic matter; determined by the national processes. International Law cannot force a nation to accept any immigrant number; except in special circumstances. Issues such as illegal migration, asylum, integration of foreigners and immigrants, inter
- ethnicity/cultural relationships and citizenship are considered to be common areas of interest
for both combating terrorism and managing international migration. The policies over these areas are unique to each country; with no real universal law of governance.

I agree wholeheartedly that it is none of Israel's business what goes on in Gaza. You have no idea how much I agree with you. There is SO much not-Israel-business because Israel withdrew and essentially ceded the territory to the Arab Palestinians more than ten years ago. Removed not only the occupation but every single last Jew. Gaza is the closest thing to an independent, self-governing State that the Palestinians have. There are multiple borders with other sovereigns for economic trade and passage for people. There is NO border dispute with Israel or with Egypt. There are ample resources and opportunities for development and economic growth -- agriculture, tourism, natural gas, industrialization agreements with Israel. The sooner Gaza has full sovereignty and a thriving economy -- the better.

The question remains -- why does Gaza not have this already?!

Here's the answer:

Because the leader of the government in Gaza stated at the riot *cough cough* protest (paraphrased):

"We are going to break down the fence and march to Jerusalem tearing out the hearts of Jews along the way."

And then dozens or hundreds of rioters with lethal weapons attempted to do just that.

THAT, my friend, is why Gaza is not a sovereign, independent State.

And it is absolutely UNCONSCIONABLE that people like you and Humanity refuse to condemn the violence of both word and deed.

Where is the link to that Gaza leaders statement? And no, Gaza is not independent. If they were independent, they would be able to leave. But they cannot. If they were independent, they would have an airport. They would have a water port. They would not get shot at when they fish. They would not get shot at when they farm. If they were independent, they would be able to receive humanitarian aid from other countries.

None of these things are true. Gaza is a prison.

(COMMENT)

First, the Gaza Strip is not a prison by any stretch of the imagination.

As it pertains to the Israeli-Gaza Strip demarcation and borders segments, the relevant control policies for volatile area → rests on the legal or ethical relationship of trust between the Representative Government and the general population. The context here is principally focused on the trust to maintain the safety of the citizenry and the security of sovereign integrity.

✪ To maintain international peace and security, ⇒ to take effective countermeasures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace; [The idea behind Article I]

✪ Israel follows the concept "based on the principle of the sovereign equality" and its right to form domestic laws on imigration and border controls; as well as to protect its citizenry "from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence." [The idea behind Articles 2(1) and 2(4)]​

In the accomplishment of these vital duties to the state and its people, Israel has an open program that follows the Prevention, Protection and Prosecution terrorists from entering or remaining in the country; commonly called the 3P Laws.

The Gaza Strip is known to have a local government that openly sponsors terrorist organizations (ie HAMAS and the PIJ...). The citizens of the Gaza Strip freely installed a leadership that is directly involved in organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities. The Gazan Leadership promotes the use of its territory as terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against the State of Israel.

Not to limit or enforce an aggressive border control and security countermeasures in the face of the demonstrated threat, would seem to be ignoring the problem. By granting Arab Palestinians free border crossing privileges

Most Respectfully,
R

Spare me your data dump. Gaza is a prison. No one can leave. If Gaza wasn't a prison, then humanitarian aid vessels would be in their ports.

Israel started the siege to punish Gazans for voting for Hamas. And Israel doesn't like Hamas, because they refuse to be Israels bitch, like Fatah does.

This is collective punishment on the entire population of Gaza. And that, my friend, is a war crime.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israeli Defense Minister Liberman has said Murtaja was a terrorist but has to offer and substantiation of that claim right? We DO know, howrver that he wad. Journalist and clearly marked.

He was shot in the stomach which is brutal and he was unarmed.

Everybody is a terrorist to Israel.

It is part of their terrorist propaganda campaign.

Link?

Israeli government effort to paint slain journalist Yaser Murtaja as terrorist is failing

Last Friday, an Israeli sniper killed Yaser Murtaja, a 30-year-old Palestinian journalist, one of six journalists targeted that day. Yesterday the Israeli Prime Minister‘s office and Defense Minister sought to smear him as a terrorist.

The most important aspect of the Israeli effort is that it is failing. No one is taking Lieberman’s smear seriously. International media is rallying to Yaser Murtaja’s side: notably the Washington Post, the Guardian– “Gaza photographer’s last video captures brutal crackdown on protests”– and the New Yorker, whose piece on Murtaja’s death yesterday, titled, “Watching a Fellow-Journalist Die in Gaza,” didn’t even lower itself to quote the Israeli hasbara.

Israeli government effort to paint slain journalist Yaser Murtaja as terrorist is failing

 

[Billo_Really]

flew a drone over our soldiers.

The drones journalists use are not weapons.

 

[Billo_Really]

Then topple the leaders. But they have to do it themselves.
There're options on the table coming from the Arab world...Hamas chooses Iran.

Do Gazans themselves understand that...what choice was made on their behalf?

They don't have to topple anything. Its none of Israel's goddamn business who Gazans choose as their leaders.

 

[Billo_Really]

When was that?

2008. The ceasefire lasted 4 months. It ended when Israel launched a commando raid into Gaza to kill some Hamas members.

 

[rylah]

Then topple the leaders. But they have to do it themselves.
There're options on the table coming from the Arab world...Hamas chooses Iran.

Do Gazans themselves understand that...what choice was made on their behalf?

They don't have to topple anything. Its none of Israel's goddamn business who Gazans choose as their leaders.

When did Hamas ever organize elections in Gaza?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Then topple the leaders. But they have to do it themselves.
There're options on the table coming from the Arab world...Hamas chooses Iran.

Do Gazans themselves understand that...what choice was made on their behalf?

They don't have to topple anything. Its none of Israel's goddamn business who Gazans choose as their leaders.

When did Hamas ever organize elections in Gaza?

Elections are initiated by constitutional process that Abbas is blocking.

 

[Shusha]

Israel doesn't treat it as such otherwise there wouldn't be 20 dead but 10,000

I saw Palestinians just standing there and getting shot.

You saw Palestinians standing WHERE and getting shot? After they were asked how many times and in how many ways to remove themselves?

If someone comes to your door and you ask them to leave and they don't respect your wishes and leave are they "just standing there"?

 

[rylah]

flew a drone over our soldiers.

The drones journalists use are not weapons.

I don't care what You might imagine sitting thousands of miles away - fly a drone over our soldiers and expect consequence.

If one is a Hamas operative...well, I don't care if he runs in press vest or a bunny suit.