Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15

[USAF 2023]

I got Popcorn My friends got Candy

 

[rylah]

My opinion about Ali Abunimah was that he had at least some level of integrity,
but it's totally shattered - he's sitting there with a straight face saying "Even the Israelis haven't alleged that weapons have been used by the protesters."

Unbelievable how can one lie so desperately in face of clear evidence to the contrary.

 

[Billo_Really]

Gaza has to do ONE thing. Just one. Its the simplest thing in the world. Just stop the violence towards Israel.

They did. Israel wouldn't stop the violence towards them.

 

[Billo_Really]

My opinion about Ali Abunimah was that he had at least some level of integrity,
but it's totally shattered - he's sitting there with a straight face saying "Even the Israelis haven't alleged that weapons have been used by the protesters."

Unbelievable how can one lie so desperately in face of clear evidence to the contrary.

The videos showed they didn't have weapons.

 

[Billo_Really]

Oh please. We've gone 50 pages and the best those siding with Gaza can come up with is the complete denial that Gazans use violence. Its a bit ridiculous, actually.

This has the potential to be a really interesting conversation about humanitarian law and moral responsibilities and really tricky strategic issues on both sides. But where are the worthy opponents? Coyote?

Or, if anyone wants to have a higher level discussion, I volunteer as tribute to argue the Gazan side.

Oh please. What's moral about shooting someone while they fish? You want them to stop the violence, yet you won't end the occupation. I'm sorry dear, it's the occupation that is causing all the violence. End the occupation and you will end the violence.

 

[Billo_Really]

Not to mention having been on the receiving end of multiple verbal warnings and non-lethal riot control measures, including warning shots in the air.

Burning a tire is not the same as firing a weapon, yet Israel treats it as such. Why can't they burn tires?

 

[Linkiloo]

Not to mention having been on the receiving end of multiple verbal warnings and non-lethal riot control measures, including warning shots in the air.

Burning a tire is not the same as firing a weapon, yet Israel treats it as such. Why can't they burn tires?

Israel doesn't treat it as such otherwise there wouldn't be 20 dead but 10,000

 

[rylah]

My opinion about Ali Abunimah was that he had at least some level of integrity,
but it's totally shattered - he's sitting there with a straight face saying "Even the Israelis haven't alleged that weapons have been used by the protesters."

Unbelievable how can one lie so desperately in face of clear evidence to the contrary.

The videos showed they didn't have weapons.

The video also didn't show Hamas leader open incitement to violence at the protest.


Day 1 of the protest - 2 men armed with rifles approach the boarder, take position and engage.
- watch the video.

 

[Coyote]

Oh please. We've gone 50 pages and the best those siding with Gaza can come up with is the complete denial that Gazans use violence. Its a bit ridiculous, actually.

This has the potential to be a really interesting conversation about humanitarian law and moral responsibilities and really tricky strategic issues on both sides. But where are the worthy opponents? Coyote?

Or, if anyone wants to have a higher level discussion, I volunteer as tribute to argue the Gazan side.

I have not read the entire thread yet, it is long, so I will try to catch up

There is no question Gaza uses violence in my mind. There is also no question Israel has made some bad moves in my mind. They shot and killed a clearly marked member of the press, and presented several different “justifications” that did not match observer statements.

But the real issue is what has led to this. Gaza’s economy is in shambles, it’s people feel hopeless, so much so that many have been attempting extremely dangerous means to get themselves and their families out. They are a people with no future, trapped in an area behind a blockade that has gone on for years and effectively destroyed them. And it does not seem to have accomplished anything.

 

[Coyote]

Why not use teargas and smoke bombs instead of live ammo?

 

[Coyote]

IEDs planted BEFORE the riots:

February 17, 2018 -- four injured
March 1, 2018
March 15, 2018

(Looks like my memory is acceptably sufficient to the task).


Oh look, and more during the riots:

April 9, 2018


Tell me how it is that Israeli soldiers are supposed to tell that someone who is at the fence and digging a hole under it is just planting melons with THIS AS CONTEXT?

I have to agree...this isn’t exactly standard melon farming practice...

 

[Coyote]

THEY WERE NOT UNARMED. Every dead pal was wielding a weapon, slingshot Molotov cocktail or grenade. Do keep up RETARD.

Where is the weapon, you little Israeli kiss-ass?

You ignore facts the dead Palestinians were all wielding a weapon when shot. The non lethal responses are to those that are unarmed and close on the border past the listed allowed point. All LEGAL MORAL and in self defense.

The journalist that was shot had a weapon?

 

[Coyote]

Newsflash. Israel is not occupying Gaza. Hasn't for more than a decade.

What you are asking for, then, is an end to the blockade and an open border with Israel. Not going to happen without a regular commitment by the government of Gaza to renounce violence and accept Israel as her neighbor.

Why won't they do that?

Why should they renounce violence when Israel won't? Why doesn't Israel renounce violence? Why does Israel shoot at their fishermen? At their farmers? Why can't Gazan's fish and farm in peace? Why can't Gazan's leave Gaza?

If Israel didn't have "effective control" over 80% of Gaza, there wouldn't be all these protests. Israel is making their daily lives a living hell. A UN report states that the area may not be able to sustain life by 2020. That's the blood on your hands.

Yes...why can’t they? They are trapped, their children are trapped...no future and leaders who are worthless.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ Billo_Really, et al,

I'm not sure if we are even looking at the current event in the same level of practical application and understanding.

(BLUF) It is the past criminal history of the Gazan People that painted themselves into the quarantine box. If anything, the control measures should be ratcheted down event more...

Border Protection and Border Management are ultimately a domestic matter; determined by the national processes. International Law cannot force a nation to accept any immigrant number; except in special circumstances. Issues such as illegal migration, asylum, integration of foreigners and immigrants, inter
- ethnicity/cultural relationships and citizenship are considered to be common areas of interest
for both combating terrorism and managing international migration. The policies over these areas are unique to each country; with no real universal law of governance.

I agree wholeheartedly that it is none of Israel's business what goes on in Gaza. You have no idea how much I agree with you. There is SO much not-Israel-business because Israel withdrew and essentially ceded the territory to the Arab Palestinians more than ten years ago. Removed not only the occupation but every single last Jew. Gaza is the closest thing to an independent, self-governing State that the Palestinians have. There are multiple borders with other sovereigns for economic trade and passage for people. There is NO border dispute with Israel or with Egypt. There are ample resources and opportunities for development and economic growth -- agriculture, tourism, natural gas, industrialization agreements with Israel. The sooner Gaza has full sovereignty and a thriving economy -- the better.

The question remains -- why does Gaza not have this already?!

Here's the answer:

Because the leader of the government in Gaza stated at the riot *cough cough* protest (paraphrased):

"We are going to break down the fence and march to Jerusalem tearing out the hearts of Jews along the way."

And then dozens or hundreds of rioters with lethal weapons attempted to do just that.

THAT, my friend, is why Gaza is not a sovereign, independent State.

And it is absolutely UNCONSCIONABLE that people like you and Humanity refuse to condemn the violence of both word and deed.

Where is the link to that Gaza leaders statement? And no, Gaza is not independent. If they were independent, they would be able to leave. But they cannot. If they were independent, they would have an airport. They would have a water port. They would not get shot at when they fish. They would not get shot at when they farm. If they were independent, they would be able to receive humanitarian aid from other countries.

None of these things are true. Gaza is a prison.

(COMMENT)

First, the Gaza Strip is not a prison by any stretch of the imagination.

As it pertains to the Israeli-Gaza Strip demarcation and borders segments, the relevant control policies for volatile area → rests on the legal or ethical relationship of trust between the Representative Government and the general population. The context here is principally focused on the trust to maintain the safety of the citizenry and the security of sovereign integrity.

✪ To maintain international peace and security, ⇒ to take effective countermeasures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace; [The idea behind Article I]

✪ Israel follows the concept "based on the principle of the sovereign equality" and its right to form domestic laws on imigration and border controls; as well as to protect its citizenry "from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence." [The idea behind Articles 2(1) and 2(4)]​

In the accomplishment of these vital duties to the state and its people, Israel has an open program that follows the Prevention, Protection and Prosecution terrorists from entering or remaining in the country; commonly called the 3P Laws.

The Gaza Strip is known to have a local government that openly sponsors terrorist organizations (ie HAMAS and the PIJ...). The citizens of the Gaza Strip freely installed a leadership that is directly involved in organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities. The Gazan Leadership promotes the use of its territory as terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against the State of Israel.

Not to limit or enforce an aggressive border control and security countermeasures in the face of the demonstrated threat, would seem to be ignoring the problem. By granting Arab Palestinians free border crossing privileges

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ Billo_Really, et al,

I'm not sure if we are even looking at the current event in the same level of practical application and understanding.

(BLUF) It is the past criminal history of the Gazan People that painted themselves into the quarantine box. If anything, the control measures should be ratcheted down event more...

Border Protection and Border Management are ultimately a domestic matter; determined by the national processes. International Law cannot force a nation to accept any immigrant number; except in special circumstances. Issues such as illegal migration, asylum, integration of foreigners and immigrants, inter
- ethnicity/cultural relationships and citizenship are considered to be common areas of interest
for both combating terrorism and managing international migration. The policies over these areas are unique to each country; with no real universal law of governance.

I agree wholeheartedly that it is none of Israel's business what goes on in Gaza. You have no idea how much I agree with you. There is SO much not-Israel-business because Israel withdrew and essentially ceded the territory to the Arab Palestinians more than ten years ago. Removed not only the occupation but every single last Jew. Gaza is the closest thing to an independent, self-governing State that the Palestinians have. There are multiple borders with other sovereigns for economic trade and passage for people. There is NO border dispute with Israel or with Egypt. There are ample resources and opportunities for development and economic growth -- agriculture, tourism, natural gas, industrialization agreements with Israel. The sooner Gaza has full sovereignty and a thriving economy -- the better.

The question remains -- why does Gaza not have this already?!

Here's the answer:

Because the leader of the government in Gaza stated at the riot *cough cough* protest (paraphrased):

"We are going to break down the fence and march to Jerusalem tearing out the hearts of Jews along the way."

And then dozens or hundreds of rioters with lethal weapons attempted to do just that.

THAT, my friend, is why Gaza is not a sovereign, independent State.

And it is absolutely UNCONSCIONABLE that people like you and Humanity refuse to condemn the violence of both word and deed.

Where is the link to that Gaza leaders statement? And no, Gaza is not independent. If they were independent, they would be able to leave. But they cannot. If they were independent, they would have an airport. They would have a water port. They would not get shot at when they fish. They would not get shot at when they farm. If they were independent, they would be able to receive humanitarian aid from other countries.

None of these things are true. Gaza is a prison.

(COMMENT)

First, the Gaza Strip is not a prison by any stretch of the imagination.

As it pertains to the Israeli-Gaza Strip demarcation and borders segments, the relevant control policies for volatile area → rests on the legal or ethical relationship of trust between the Representative Government and the general population. The context here is principally focused on the trust to maintain the safety of the citizenry and the security of sovereign integrity.

✪ To maintain international peace and security, ⇒ to take effective countermeasures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace; [The idea behind Article I]

✪ Israel follows the concept "based on the principle of the sovereign equality" and its right to form domestic laws on imigration and border controls; as well as to protect its citizenry "from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence." [The idea behind Articles 2(1) and 2(4)]​

In the accomplishment of these vital duties to the state and its people, Israel has an open program that follows the Prevention, Protection and Prosecution terrorists from entering or remaining in the country; commonly called the 3P Laws.

The Gaza Strip is known to have a local government that openly sponsors terrorist organizations (ie HAMAS and the PIJ...). The citizens of the Gaza Strip freely installed a leadership that is directly involved in organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities. The Gazan Leadership promotes the use of its territory as terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against the State of Israel.

Not to limit or enforce an aggressive border control and security countermeasures in the face of the demonstrated threat, would seem to be ignoring the problem. By granting Arab Palestinians free border crossing privileges

Most Respectfully,
R

International Law cannot force a nation to accept any immigrant number; except in special circumstances. Issues such as illegal migration, asylum, integration of foreigners and immigrants, inter

According to international law (and reiterated in Resolution 181) all of the Palestinians who normally lived in the territory that became Israel are Israeli citizens. That would be 2/3 of the people who now live in Gaza. It is not about immigration.

 

[Hollie]

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ Billo_Really, et al,

I'm not sure if we are even looking at the current event in the same level of practical application and understanding.

(BLUF) It is the past criminal history of the Gazan People that painted themselves into the quarantine box. If anything, the control measures should be ratcheted down event more...

Border Protection and Border Management are ultimately a domestic matter; determined by the national processes. International Law cannot force a nation to accept any immigrant number; except in special circumstances. Issues such as illegal migration, asylum, integration of foreigners and immigrants, inter
- ethnicity/cultural relationships and citizenship are considered to be common areas of interest
for both combating terrorism and managing international migration. The policies over these areas are unique to each country; with no real universal law of governance.

I agree wholeheartedly that it is none of Israel's business what goes on in Gaza. You have no idea how much I agree with you. There is SO much not-Israel-business because Israel withdrew and essentially ceded the territory to the Arab Palestinians more than ten years ago. Removed not only the occupation but every single last Jew. Gaza is the closest thing to an independent, self-governing State that the Palestinians have. There are multiple borders with other sovereigns for economic trade and passage for people. There is NO border dispute with Israel or with Egypt. There are ample resources and opportunities for development and economic growth -- agriculture, tourism, natural gas, industrialization agreements with Israel. The sooner Gaza has full sovereignty and a thriving economy -- the better.

The question remains -- why does Gaza not have this already?!

Here's the answer:

Because the leader of the government in Gaza stated at the riot *cough cough* protest (paraphrased):

"We are going to break down the fence and march to Jerusalem tearing out the hearts of Jews along the way."

And then dozens or hundreds of rioters with lethal weapons attempted to do just that.

THAT, my friend, is why Gaza is not a sovereign, independent State.

And it is absolutely UNCONSCIONABLE that people like you and Humanity refuse to condemn the violence of both word and deed.

Where is the link to that Gaza leaders statement? And no, Gaza is not independent. If they were independent, they would be able to leave. But they cannot. If they were independent, they would have an airport. They would have a water port. They would not get shot at when they fish. They would not get shot at when they farm. If they were independent, they would be able to receive humanitarian aid from other countries.

None of these things are true. Gaza is a prison.

(COMMENT)

First, the Gaza Strip is not a prison by any stretch of the imagination.

As it pertains to the Israeli-Gaza Strip demarcation and borders segments, the relevant control policies for volatile area → rests on the legal or ethical relationship of trust between the Representative Government and the general population. The context here is principally focused on the trust to maintain the safety of the citizenry and the security of sovereign integrity.

✪ To maintain international peace and security, ⇒ to take effective countermeasures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace; [The idea behind Article I]

✪ Israel follows the concept "based on the principle of the sovereign equality" and its right to form domestic laws on imigration and border controls; as well as to protect its citizenry "from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence." [The idea behind Articles 2(1) and 2(4)]​

In the accomplishment of these vital duties to the state and its people, Israel has an open program that follows the Prevention, Protection and Prosecution terrorists from entering or remaining in the country; commonly called the 3P Laws.

The Gaza Strip is known to have a local government that openly sponsors terrorist organizations (ie HAMAS and the PIJ...). The citizens of the Gaza Strip freely installed a leadership that is directly involved in organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities. The Gazan Leadership promotes the use of its territory as terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against the State of Israel.

Not to limit or enforce an aggressive border control and security countermeasures in the face of the demonstrated threat, would seem to be ignoring the problem. By granting Arab Palestinians free border crossing privileges

Most Respectfully,
R

International Law cannot force a nation to accept any immigrant number; except in special circumstances. Issues such as illegal migration, asylum, integration of foreigners and immigrants, inter

According to international law (and reiterated in Resolution 181) all of the Palestinians who normally lived in the territory that became Israel are Israeli citizens. That would be 2/3 of the people who now live in Gaza. It is not about immigration.

You're not versed in international law.

Resolution 181 was never implemented.

 

[rylah]

THEY WERE NOT UNARMED. Every dead pal was wielding a weapon, slingshot Molotov cocktail or grenade. Do keep up RETARD.

Where is the weapon, you little Israeli kiss-ass?

You ignore facts the dead Palestinians were all wielding a weapon when shot. The non lethal responses are to those that are unarmed and close on the border past the listed allowed point. All LEGAL MORAL and in self defense.

The journalist that was shot had a weapon?

flew a drone over our soldiers.

 

[rylah]

Newsflash. Israel is not occupying Gaza. Hasn't for more than a decade.

What you are asking for, then, is an end to the blockade and an open border with Israel. Not going to happen without a regular commitment by the government of Gaza to renounce violence and accept Israel as her neighbor.

Why won't they do that?

Why should they renounce violence when Israel won't? Why doesn't Israel renounce violence? Why does Israel shoot at their fishermen? At their farmers? Why can't Gazan's fish and farm in peace? Why can't Gazan's leave Gaza?

If Israel didn't have "effective control" over 80% of Gaza, there wouldn't be all these protests. Israel is making their daily lives a living hell. A UN report states that the area may not be able to sustain life by 2020. That's the blood on your hands.

Yes...why can’t they? They are trapped, their children are trapped...no future and leaders who are worthless.

Then topple the leaders. But they have to do it themselves.
There're options on the table coming from the Arab world...Hamas chooses Iran.

Do Gazans themselves understand that...what choice was made on their behalf?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

A couple of points here.

BLUF: You will be hard-pressed to find someone among the demonstrators/protesters that are actually RoR criteria qualified. In fact, 95% of the demonstrators are merely descendants that are registered for services.≈

• A/RES/181(II) 29 November 1947 •, was an Offer (made on the part of the UN) and Acceptance (Accepted by Jewish Agency but not by the Arab Higher Committee).

✪ A/RES/181(II) has been generally accepted as a "non-binding agreement.
✪ The Jewish Agency, in the acceptance, made no commitment to the Arab Higher Committee that rejected the recommendations. The only agreement made was to the UN under the UN Palestine Commission (UNPC).
✪ On May 15th, the Provisional Israeli Government announce their independence and on May 17th (Press Release PAL/169) the UNPC announced Sine Die and that the "the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."​

International Law cannot force a nation to accept any immigrant number; except in special circumstances. Issues such as illegal migration, asylum, integration of foreigners and immigrants, inter

According to international law (and reiterated in Resolution 181), all of the Palestinians who normally lived in the territory that became Israel are Israeli citizens. That would be 2/3 of the people who now live in Gaza. It is not about immigration.

(COMMENT)

​

The A/RES/181 (II) [Part I (Future constitution and government of Palestine) --- Section "C" (Declarations) --- Chapter (Citizenship, international conventions and financial obligations) does not address the issue of refugees.

(NOTE: A word search revealed that the word "refugee" does not appear anywhere in the text of the 29 November Resolution. It should be noted that under Paragraph 9(5) of Steps Prepatory to Independence --- in relationship to elections to the Constituent Assembly which shall be conducted on democratic lines the Resolution States: During the transitional period no Jew shall be permitted to establish residence in the area of the proposed Arab State, and no Arab shall be permitted to establish residence in the area of the proposed Jewish State, except by special leave of the Commission.

I assume that you meant to cite:

SECTION II Treaty of Peace with Turkey Signed at Lausanne, July 24, 1923.
NATIONALITY.
ARTICLE 30.

"⇒ Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred." | ⇒ This does not deal with refugees.​

• A/RES/194 (III) 11 December 1948 • Paragraph 11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;

This Resolution, sometimes referred to as the Right of Return (RoR) Resolution, is questionable as to it being binding, since it was written before the four Armistice Agreements of 1949, and that in later times, the Treaties (in particular the 1979 and 1994 treaties with Egypt and Jordan) remained silent on the issue (without prejudice towards the Arab Palestinian).

What does contain that language is the Consolidated Eligibility and Registration Instructions (CERI) developed by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA): A type A1 Palestinian Refugee is:

Persons who meet UNRWA’s Palestine Refugee criteria:

These are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict. Palestine Refugees, and descendants of Palestine refugee males, including legally adopted children, are eligible to register for UNRWA services. The Agency accepts new applications from persons who wish to be registered as Palestine Refugees. Once they are registered with UNRWA, persons in this category are referred to as Registered Refugees or as Registered Palestine Refugees.​

Well, the Gaza Strip does NOT have a population of two-thirds at 70 years old. Less than 3% of the Gaza Strip Population fall into that category. Persons who do not meet UNRWA’s (Type 2 persons) Palestine Refugee criteria are registered for the purposes of receiving UNRWA services, these persons are not counted as part of the official Registered Refugee population of the Agency.

Interestingly enough, the CIA Factbook on the Gaza Strip indicates that:

Life expectancy at birth:

total population: 74.2 years
male: 72.5 years
female: 75.9 years (2017 est.)​

Age structure:

0-14 years: 44.78% (male 412,644/female 391,275)
15-24 years: 21.25% (male 192,292/female 189,166)
25-54 years: 28.02% (male 246,518/female 256,543)
55-64 years: 3.4% (male 31,961/female 29,119)
65 years and over: 2.54% (male 23,729/female 21,936) (2017 est.)
​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Coyote]

THEY WERE NOT UNARMED. Every dead pal was wielding a weapon, slingshot Molotov cocktail or grenade. Do keep up RETARD.

Where is the weapon, you little Israeli kiss-ass?

You ignore facts the dead Palestinians were all wielding a weapon when shot. The non lethal responses are to those that are unarmed and close on the border past the listed allowed point. All LEGAL MORAL and in self defense.

The journalist that was shot had a weapon?

flew a drone over our soldiers.

Where is the supposed drone? Evidence supporting the claim?