Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15

[Shusha]

People and sovereign nations who do not have the ability to distinguish between self-defense and aggression and do not have the ability to restrain from attacking other sovereigns and civilians of other nations should not have access to weapons.

That is not your decision to make.

Why don't you come over to my house and try to tell me what's what under my roof and see what happens next?

Sweetheart if you were putting bombs on you all's OWN fences I'd have no problem. Israel is not invading Gaza. Other way around.

 

[Shusha]

Not zero.

Relative zero.

Not zero.

If you mean zero do zero. Otherwise it's just bullshit.

 

[Tilly]

When a country allows rockets to be fired at civilians of another country that is war by any other name!

They can't aim those rockets. So they're not fired at anyone. They just shoot it into the sky, then go home and turn on CNN to see where it landed.

Awwww. Aren’t they cute?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You ignore facts the dead Palestinians were all wielding a weapon when shot. The non lethal responses are to those that are unarmed and close on the border past the listed allowed point. All LEGAL MORAL and in self defense.

No they were not all wielding weapons. All the videos I've seen they were unarmed protesters getting shot for the same reason a dog licks' its balls.

All the videos I've seen they were unarmed protesters getting shot for the same reason a dog licks' its balls.

They were shot because they were itchy?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

When a country allows rockets to be fired at civilians of another country that is war by any other name!

They can't aim those rockets. So they're not fired at anyone. They just shoot it into the sky, then go home and turn on CNN to see where it landed.

They can't aim those rockets.

Shooting rockets willy nilly at civilians makes it a war crime.
Nice friends you have there.

 

[Coyote]

Spare me your data dump. Gaza is a prison. No one can leave.

Please. You DO realize that in theory I can not leave Canada, right? My ability to leave Canada depends on another sovereign State's willingness to receive me. International law states that I must not be prevented from leaving (and returning) to my country (as controlled by my country) but it also is clear that no country is compelled to receive me (as controlled by other countries).

The conditions which ease the passage of citizens from one nation to another are those of peace.

I agree, that is how it works...yet...they can't leave, even if they don't support violence - they, their children, families are stuck unless they attempt highly dangerous illegal crossings.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

How many years ago?
I mean can they even talk about other candidates in Gaza?
Is there anything other than "destroy Israel , kill Israelis" on their political menu?

It was in 2006. They said they would become just a political organization if Israel would end the occupation and allow Palestinian's the right of return. Israel said no way.

Right of return for whom? To where?

 

[Coyote]

When did Hamas ever organize elections in Gaza?

I don't think they organized it, but they did win in a fair election.

And they haven't had an election since. They really need to. Seperate from WB. Gaza on it's own.

 

[Coyote]

Yes, they are shooting at people fishing.

They are requiring that people who are fishing respect the blockade because there are plenty of people who are NOT fishing but are smuggling weapons. Stop smuggling weapons. Fish away.

Why don't you require the Gazans to stop smuggling weapons so their own people can fish?

The problem is - in respecting the blockade they are unable to provide a sustainable livelyhood.

 

[Coyote]

Actually I looked for and couldn't find anything yet, except for a video of him laying in a medical tent.
From what I see he was wounded standing in profile, with his side or angled, this seems logical since he had a vest but had the bullet exit through the left side on the lower back.

If he was shot knowingly that there was nothing wrong done - it's wrong and stupid, must be dealt..
If he was shot by mistake with no intention many other facts have to be taken in account, and compared to similar cases worldwide, journalists take risks knowingly when they go into violent clashes.
If he operated a drone there's no argument for his case at all.
If he was shot on order for being an active Hamas member, and identified as such - regular military conduct against an enemy.

He was wearing clothing that clearly marked him as a journalist. Israel targets the media, because they don't want the world seeing what they are doing.

That is a bit of a problem. Israel HAS harrassed journalists...

Israel : Independent media constrained by military censorship | Reporters without borders
The Israeli media are free to be outspoken, which is rare in the Middle East. Nonetheless, despite the existence of independent media, journalists are subject to “military censorship.” The Israel Defense Forces often violate the rights of Palestinian journalists and journalists of other nations, especially when they are covering demonstrations. Under Israel’s system of administrative detention, Palestinian journalists can be held indefinitely without trial, without formal charge, and without notifying a lawyer. They are often accused of inciting violence, cooperating with terrorist organizations, or otherwise posing a threat to Israel’s security

 

[Shusha]

I agree, that is how it works...yet...they can't leave, even if they don't support violence - they, their children, families are stuck unless they attempt highly dangerous illegal crossings.

The solution is peace. Not illegal crossings.

 

[Coyote]

he is also a journalist and Israel has harassed journalists before.

Palestinians have disguised terrorists as journalists. Context matters. That fact matters. It CHANGES the way Israel views the sanctity of the Press vest. If Palestinians do not respect that sanctity it is ludicrous to expect Israel to do so.

I am not so convinced it changes things that much. Israel also has a reputation of harrassing Palestinian and foreign journalists trying to cover demonstrations (in another post, I posted a link from Reporters Without Borders rating countries on journalistic freedom). I think that it can become an excuse to go after Palestinian journalists - and this fellow was not armed, there is no evidence produced of a drone.

We have conflicting accounts of what occurred so .I would like to know what evidence there is of a drone

The individual in question was known to use drones. So, it fits. Its not out of nowhere. And since all evidence points to Israel being EXTREMELY precise in its targeting over the past few days, it stands to reason that this particular individual was targeted and not an incidental hit, a mistake or victim of a wide-spread lethal use of force.

Where is the drone? In all the video on everyone's cameras - does anything show the drone? Did it crash? Where is it?

He has used drones in his photo-journalism efforts. He also just recieved a grant for photo journalism that is pretty stiffly vetted. If he was a terrorist - I think it would have come out.

The question to really ask, rather than, "Did this really happen?" is whether use of drones by journalists is cause for lethal use of force, when he is a known member of a military wing of what is deemed a terrorist organization. (The individual, btw, was outside the 300m no-go zone at 350m. And I think that is relevant since that appears to be unique. Also, if I was to speculate, and this is just speculation, I'd imagine the stomach wound is a targeting error. Probably intended to be non-lethal, incapacitating shot to the lower limbs.)

Good questions...and it should be investigated. But I think another important point is - he was not armed. He presented no danger. If there was a drone in action - it could have been shot down. In addition - and maybe I missed a response on this - non lethal force could have been used. Smoke bombs, tear gas. A sniper shooting an unarmed journalist doesn't sit right with me.

Edited to add: I just read rylah 's post and I agree with that list of possibilities. And probably a better way of discussing it than my speculation.

Both good!

 

[Shusha]

The problem is - in respecting the blockade they are unable to provide a sustainable livelyhood.

And the solution to that problem is a renunciation of violence and peace with their neighbors. You can't expect a foreign State to risk their own security in order to provide a livelihood to citizens of another country. Its ridiculous.

 

[Coyote]

I agree, that is how it works...yet...they can't leave, even if they don't support violence - they, their children, families are stuck unless they attempt highly dangerous illegal crossings.

The solution is peace. Not illegal crossings.

If you have a family to support, and children and you see no hope for resolution, then you do what you can to save them. That is what I think

 

[Coyote]

The problem is - in respecting the blockade they are unable to provide a sustainable livelyhood.

And the solution to that problem is a renunciation of violence and peace with their neighbors. You can't expect a foreign State to risk their own security in order to provide a livelihood to citizens of another country. Its ridiculous.

Of course not. But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.

 

[Shusha]

They are often accused of inciting violence, cooperating with terrorist organizations, or otherwise posing a threat to Israel’s security

Huh. Maybe that's because they incite violence, co-operate with terrorist organizations and pose a threat to Israel's security.

 

[Coyote]

Yes...why can’t they? They are trapped, their children are trapped...no future and leaders who are worthless.

They're worthless by Israeli design. The biggest reason Hamas is hated is because they won't kiss Israel's ass, like Fatah does. And Israeli's can't sleep at night unless someone somewhere is kissing their ass. Which is the one thing, they will never get from me.

I don't agree. Hamas has done little for the Palestinians. Hamas is for Hamas. They won an election because they Fatah's corruption became unbearable. Hamas has not shown itself to be any better.

What have they done to improve the lot of the Palestinians? Have they invested in economies? Infrastructure? Schools? Peace partnerships with anyone?

 

[Coyote]

They are often accused of inciting violence, cooperating with terrorist organizations, or otherwise posing a threat to Israel’s security

Huh. Maybe that's because they incite violence, co-operate with terrorist organizations and pose a threat to Israel's security.

Or...they are accused of it because what they report is very critical of Israel.

 

[Coyote]

People and sovereign nations who do not have the ability to distinguish between self-defense and aggression and do not have the ability to restrain from attacking other sovereigns and civilians of other nations should not have access to weapons.

That is not your decision to make.

Why don't you come over to my house and try to tell me what's what under my roof and see what happens next?

Sweetheart if you were putting bombs on you all's OWN fences I'd have no problem. Israel is not invading Gaza. Other way around.

Bombs do tend to change the perspective....

 

[Coyote]

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ Coyote, et al,

The HAMAS Drones have been around for more than five years.

See: • Hamas drone injects new element into Arab-Israeli conflict •
View attachment 187380 By David Zucchino and Ralph Vartabedian | Jul 15, 2014

See: • Hamas Publishes Photo of a Drone It Says It Built •
By ISABEL KERSHNER and PATRICK J. LYONS | JULY 14, 2014

Where is the supposed drone? Evidence supporting the claim?

Please don't fall too deep into the "but it never happened" hole. The individual in question was a known Hamas member, using a drone to fly over Israel's forces at the time of the shooting. The CONTEXT is that Gazans and Palestinians have used false ID (press, medical personnel, etc) in order to disguise terrorist activity.

he is also a journalist and Israel has harassed journalists before. We have conflicting accounts of what occurred so .I would like to know what evidence there is of a drone

(COMMENT)

View attachment 187386
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Now, you might ask! how credible is it. I don't think it is much bigger than a toy. But even a modified toy, complete with Blue Tooth (cause everything is better with Blue Tooth). In 2010, the Chinese had a one-inch cude camera, which could broadcast better than a Canadian football field (Goal Post to Goal Post) decent BW video. It could easily be used to view open fields of view along the border and fensesecurity barrier.

I suspect the 2014 picture of the HAMAS Drone has greatly improved and looks much more sophisticate.

Most Respectfully,
R

But Rocco, did this journalist have a drone at this demonstration?