Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15

[Toddsterpatriot]

The problem is - in respecting the blockade they are unable to provide a sustainable livelyhood.

And the solution to that problem is a renunciation of violence and peace with their neighbors. You can't expect a foreign State to risk their own security in order to provide a livelihood to citizens of another country. Its ridiculous.

Of course not. But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.

Their economy is in shambles?
Would it improve if they spent less on rockets and tunnels?

 

[Coyote]

The problem is - in respecting the blockade they are unable to provide a sustainable livelyhood.

And the solution to that problem is a renunciation of violence and peace with their neighbors. You can't expect a foreign State to risk their own security in order to provide a livelihood to citizens of another country. Its ridiculous.

Of course not. But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.

Their economy is in shambles?
Would it improve if they spent less on rockets and tunnels?

Or if there wasn't a blockade - you can't say it has no effect.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Maybe the Palestinians should offer peace and recognize the nation of Israel.
Maybe Arab nations could let people like me in even though I have an Israel stamp in my passport.

Wow, what a concept!

 

[Weatherman2020]

The problem is - in respecting the blockade they are unable to provide a sustainable livelyhood.

And the solution to that problem is a renunciation of violence and peace with their neighbors. You can't expect a foreign State to risk their own security in order to provide a livelihood to citizens of another country. Its ridiculous.

Of course not. But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.

Their economy is in shambles?
Would it improve if they spent less on rockets and tunnels?

Tunnels are infrastructure.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The problem is - in respecting the blockade they are unable to provide a sustainable livelyhood.

And the solution to that problem is a renunciation of violence and peace with their neighbors. You can't expect a foreign State to risk their own security in order to provide a livelihood to citizens of another country. Its ridiculous.

Of course not. But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.

Their economy is in shambles?
Would it improve if they spent less on rockets and tunnels?

Or if there wasn't a blockade - you can't say it has no effect.

Of course it has an effect. Imagine the weapons Hamas would import without a blockade.

 

[Shusha]

Of course not. But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.

Why not? This is not subsistence farming (fishing).


And why not insist that Hamas stop stealing electricity from their citizens to light tunnels (which bring nothing to the economy) and instead put the electricity towards the fish farms which are, in fact, vastly more capable of improving the economy than sea fishing is? As just a small example of how Hamas could contribute to the economy rather than hindering it.

Why are you not making Hamas responsible for providing for its citizens?

 

[Weatherman2020]

The problem is - in respecting the blockade they are unable to provide a sustainable livelyhood.

And the solution to that problem is a renunciation of violence and peace with their neighbors. You can't expect a foreign State to risk their own security in order to provide a livelihood to citizens of another country. Its ridiculous.

Of course not. But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.

Their economy is in shambles?
Would it improve if they spent less on rockets and tunnels?

Or if there wasn't a blockade - you can't say it has no effect.

Blockade? What's that nation to the south called and who runs it?

 

[Coyote]

Of course not. But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.

Why not? This is not subsistence farming (fishing).


And why not insist that Hamas stop stealing electricity from their citizens to light tunnels (which bring nothing to the economy) and instead put the electricity towards the fish farms which are, in fact, vastly more capable of improving the economy than sea fishing is? As just a small example of how Hamas could contribute to the economy rather than hindering it.

Why are you not making Hamas responsible for providing for its citizens?

I agree, Hamas has much to blame.

 

[Coyote]

The problem is - in respecting the blockade they are unable to provide a sustainable livelyhood.

And the solution to that problem is a renunciation of violence and peace with their neighbors. You can't expect a foreign State to risk their own security in order to provide a livelihood to citizens of another country. Its ridiculous.

Of course not. But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.

Their economy is in shambles?
Would it improve if they spent less on rockets and tunnels?

Or if there wasn't a blockade - you can't say it has no effect.

Blockade? What's that nation to the south called and who runs it?

There are two nations two the south dude.

And Egypt is just as problematic.

 

[Shusha]

Or if there wasn't a blockade - you can't say it has no effect.

Of course it has an effect! Its meant to have an effect! That is the POINT!

But the removal of the effect is an natural outcome of the removal of the cause. The cause is violence against Israel.

Expecting Israel to remove the blockade in the face of continued violence and continued incitement by the GOVERNMENT is ludicrous.

 

[Coyote]

Or if there wasn't a blockade - you can't say it has no effect.

Of course it has an effect! Its meant to have an effect! That is the POINT!

But the removal of the effect is an natural outcome of the removal of the cause. The cause is violence against Israel.

Expecting Israel to remove the blockade in the face of continued violence and continued incitement by the GOVERNMENT is ludicrous.

The problem is, imo - the blockade went up with the election of Hamas - a democratic election. No attempt to try to work with Hamas, etc.

 

[Shusha]

I agree, Hamas has much to blame.

Hamas, as the government of Gaza, has the responsibility to serve its citizens. It is utterly failing to do so by expending resources on entirely pointless belligerence against a sovereign State and by funneling resources to that fruitless war at the expense of its citizens well-being.

Israel is delicately balancing the humanitarian needs of foreign citizens and its own security.

Moral clarity is needed here.

 

[Shusha]

Or if there wasn't a blockade - you can't say it has no effect.

Of course it has an effect! Its meant to have an effect! That is the POINT!

But the removal of the effect is an natural outcome of the removal of the cause. The cause is violence against Israel.

Expecting Israel to remove the blockade in the face of continued violence and continued incitement by the GOVERNMENT is ludicrous.

The problem is, imo - the blockade went up with the election of Hamas - a democratic election. No attempt to try to work with Hamas, etc.

That may have been a valid argument in 2007. Its not now. Because Hamas has failed to demonstrate a willingness accept peace with Israel. (tearing hearts out, anyone?)

 

[Coyote]

Or if there wasn't a blockade - you can't say it has no effect.

Of course it has an effect! Its meant to have an effect! That is the POINT!

But the removal of the effect is an natural outcome of the removal of the cause. The cause is violence against Israel.

Expecting Israel to remove the blockade in the face of continued violence and continued incitement by the GOVERNMENT is ludicrous.

The problem is, imo - the blockade went up with the election of Hamas - a democratic election. No attempt to try to work with Hamas, etc.

That may have been a valid argument in 2007. Its not now. Because Hamas has failed to demonstrate a willingness accept peace with Israel. (tearing hearts out, anyone?)

You are right, it is not a valid argument now, however - it might not have come to this if Israel had made a good faith effort to work with them in the beginning. They didn't at all.

 

[Coyote]

I agree, Hamas has much to blame.

Hamas, as the government of Gaza, has the responsibility to serve its citizens. It is utterly failing to do so by expending resources on entirely pointless belligerence against a sovereign State and by funneling resources to that fruitless war at the expense of its citizens well-being.

Israel is delicately balancing the humanitarian needs of foreign citizens and its own security.

Moral clarity is needed here.

Except that the blockade was imposed before the new government had a chance to even do anything. In a sense - Israel created this situation.

 

[Shusha]

The problem is, imo - the blockade went up with the election of Hamas - a democratic election. No attempt to try to work with Hamas, etc.

And I think that sidelines the actual problem.

The problem is the insistent refusal of peace on the part of Gaza. Both the citizens and their leadership. What would happen if there was no more violence? If Hamas, as government of Gaza, actually made sure that not a singe weapon was imported, or a single rocket launched, or a single suicide bomber crossed the border?

What would happen, in the context of this very discussion, if the government of Gaza were the ones which prevented their own citizens from getting too close to the fence? If they policed the protest? If the government of Gaza searched every person coming to the protest? If they confiscated guns, bombs, slingshots, tires, firebombs, knives, swastikas, drones? And turned away all those who brought them? Or arrested them?

 

[Shusha]

You are right, it is not a valid argument now, however - it might not have come to this if Israel had made a good faith effort to work with them in the beginning. They didn't at all.

As easily argue that Hamas did not make a good faith effort to make peace with Israel. You are forgetting the REASON why Israel did not work with them from the beginning -- they refused peace; they refused to abide by existing agreements and they refused to recognize Israel. So on what grounds was there good faith which Israel could work with?

 

[Coyote]

You are right, it is not a valid argument now, however - it might not have come to this if Israel had made a good faith effort to work with them in the beginning. They didn't at all.

As easily argue that Hamas did not make a good faith effort to make peace with Israel. You are forgetting the REASON why Israel did not work with them from the beginning -- they refused peace; they refused to abide by existing agreements and they refused to recognize Israel. So on what grounds was there good faith which Israel could work with?

When they were elected into power - did Israel give them a chance?

 

[Coyote]

The problem is, imo - the blockade went up with the election of Hamas - a democratic election. No attempt to try to work with Hamas, etc.

And I think that sidelines the actual problem.

The problem is the insistent refusal of peace on the part of Gaza. Both the citizens and their leadership. What would happen if there was no more violence? If Hamas, as government of Gaza, actually made sure that not a singe weapon was imported, or a single rocket launched, or a single suicide bomber crossed the border?

What would happen, in the context of this very discussion, if the government of Gaza were the ones which prevented their own citizens from getting too close to the fence? If they policed the protest? If the government of Gaza searched every person coming to the protest? If they confiscated guns, bombs, slingshots, tires, firebombs, knives, swastikas, drones? And turned away all those who brought them? Or arrested them?

If that happened - the conflict would likely be on it's way to an end.

 

[Weatherman2020]

And the solution to that problem is a renunciation of violence and peace with their neighbors. You can't expect a foreign State to risk their own security in order to provide a livelihood to citizens of another country. Its ridiculous.

Of course not. But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.

Their economy is in shambles?
Would it improve if they spent less on rockets and tunnels?

Or if there wasn't a blockade - you can't say it has no effect.

Blockade? What's that nation to the south called and who runs it?

There are two nations two the south dude.

And Egypt is just as problematic.

Why is Egypt blockading those poor starving Pals?