Zone1 I've been an atheist for 60 years and have never once been tempted to believe in any god

[ding]

You seem to think people have t lock themselves into a single belief system them defend that system at all costs

I think you criticize what you don't believe to arrive at what you do believe.

 

[Blues Man]

Indirectly that is exactly what you are telling me.

No it's not.

 

[Blues Man]

I think you criticize what you don't believe to arrive at what you do believe.

No I criticize what I see as detrimental. And organized religions are detrimental.

 

[Blues Man]

Look up the etymology of the Hebrew word. Hebrew is not a subjective language, but a picturesque one. Missing the mark or the target.


How do you reach these conclusions? The mark or the target is divine law. Miss hitting/following divine law, in many cases, is not--as you seem to assume--"a little mistake."

Think about it. Ever try archery? When one misses the target, one usually does not dismiss it with a shrug of one's shoulders and then walk away. One tries again to hit the target.


Really. Rabbis know this, and I have heard several Catholic priests explain it as well. This is far from being hidden knowledge. It may not be seen by those who simply read, but it is plainly visible to those who study.

And therein lies the problem.

Your religion sets you up to fail because it orders you to be perfect while telling you you are inherently flawed. Then when you inevitably fail you are just supposed to try again and again and again like Sisyphus rolling his rock.

That to me is not something done to lift people up but rathe it's done to punish them for no other reason than they are not perfect



It's no different than telling a person he is sick then chastising him for not making himself well.

 

[Meriweather]

Your religion sets you up to fail because it orders you to be perfect while telling you you are inherently flawed. Then when you inevitably fail you are just supposed to try again and again and again like Sisyphus rolling his rock.

That to me is not something done to lift people up but rathe it's done to punish them for no other reason than they are not perfect

This is my problem: Note how you are telling me what 'my' religion "really" says when it says no such thing. You make things up, falsely attribute it to another religion or faith, and then begin shooting that faith down based on your own ignorance and errors of understanding and/or interpretation.

As I have recommended before: Let's stick with explaining our own beliefs and let others explain theirs.

 

[ding]

No it's not.

You should lean into it. Denying your true colors isn't healthy for you. It's ok that you hate people of faith and God and that everyone should see everything exactly as you do.

 

[ding]

No I criticize what I see as detrimental. And organized religions are detrimental.

No, you criticize your perception of it. But it's you that is fucked up. You shouldn't trust anything you believe.

For instance, it's illogical for you to believe religion is detrimental without believing religion should be abolished. See? You can't trust your own logic.

 

[Blues Man]

You should lean into it. Denying your true colors isn't healthy for you. It's ok that you hate people of faith and God and that everyone should see everything exactly as you do.

I don't hate anyone.

And all I am doing is disagreeing with you. I have never once said you have to agree with me nor have I ever told you what to believe.

It is my position that organized religions are to be avoided like the plague

 

[Blues Man]

No, you criticize your perception of it. But it's you that is fucked up. You shouldn't trust anything you believe.

For instance, it's illogical for you to believe religion is detrimental without believing religion should be abolished. See? You can't trust your own logic.

It is my opinion that organized religions are detrimental.

so yes that is how I perceive them.

And there is no logic in your last statement at all.

I can believe that religions are detrimental and not care if you participate in them.

I think eating meat is morally repugnant but I do not say we have to abolish the meat industry

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I personally have often wondered what happens to basically good people in other nations who have a different religion. They may have heard of Christianity but their background would make it hard to convert for many.

MY belief is that it is not yet their time. Heck, it may not really be "THE" time for so many professing Christians who do not live anything like Christ commanded them to live. Every human being will get their chance to receive the GIFT of eternal life.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

MY belief is that it is not yet their time. Heck, it may not really be "THE" time for so many professing Christians who do not live anything like Christ commanded them to live. Every human being will get their chance to receive the GIFT of eternal life.

Why not just give it to everyone? Why the "system"? What is this, chuck e cheese?

 

[Libby von H]

When I was 10 years old, we had a dog named Silver. A sealyham - sort of a largish Westie. He had been struck by a car when I was much younger and that had left him blind in one eye. We adapted. He adapted. But whenever he entered an unfamiliar space (the furniture moved, for instance) he would collide with things. I felt bad for him. Like most children my age I believed what I was told was the truth by my parents and the church they took me to. So I prayed as fervently and selflessly as I could manage that God would restore his vision. But, as would happen in any bad movie, his poor vision led Silver to wandering out in front of another car where he suffered another concussion which left him completely blind. Now all dogs go to heaven because all dogs are innocent. Every non-human form of life is innocent of the many sins the Bible spells out. Initially, I was angry. How could God cause my innocent dog to suffer, regardless of his motive or intent? The standard "mysterious ways" line didn't help at all. What did help was the realization that the best explanation was not that god was mysterious or unknowable, but that he simply wasn't there. The existence of the god described by the Bible and by our preacher and the believers I would talk with was simply not possible; not only because it violated all the laws of nature but because absolutely no evidence I could find supported the idea. Every thing I could learn about the world and how it worked refuted the idea of a caring, personal god who had created miraculous humans and a miraculous Earth to be their home and was everpresent, watching over us and, on proper supplication, violating the laws that he himself had set in place - if he felt like it.

As the years went by I simply became more and more convinced that there is a great deal about the working of the universe we do not yet know, but the basics - the principal of uniformitarianism, holds, everywhere and everywhen. Nothing is supernatural. No will directs or inspires the stream of events taking place over the passage of time. Only physics.

What signs or signals should I have caught that might have lured me back to my childhood faith? And how might my life have been different had I done so? I have lots of friends and I'm pretty sure most of them think I'm a nice guy. I buy fully and heartily into the Golden Rule. I believe it to be the sole basis of human civilization. How do you think my complete lack of divine faith hurt me? Will your god throw into a lake of fire because I led a good life but failed to do him obeisance? That is, of course, precisely what scriptures tells us. Why would ANY of you believe, much less WORSHIP such a god? He seems a monster. Would anyone care to correct me?

That only proves your dishonesty. You would not accord the same argument to someone saying "I have believed for X years and never tempted to not believe"---which actually shows you misunderstand both Faith and Reason
If you cannot prove your point, it is sheer admission of irrationality
and if you deny reasonableness to those who think there is a Creator/God then you sin by Pride
But the bottom line is, YOu deny any part to WILL and yet say everyoone else has bad will

 

[ding]

It is my opinion that organized religions are detrimental.

And the reason for your adversarial behaviors towards them.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

When I was 10 years old, we had a dog named Silver. A sealyham - sort of a largish Westie. He had been struck by a car when I was much younger and that had left him blind in one eye. We adapted. He adapted. But whenever he entered an unfamiliar space (the furniture moved, for instance) he would collide with things. I felt bad for him. Like most children my age I believed what I was told was the truth by my parents and the church they took me to. So I prayed as fervently and selflessly as I could manage that God would restore his vision. But, as would happen in any bad movie, his poor vision led Silver to wandering out in front of another car where he suffered another concussion which left him completely blind. Now all dogs go to heaven because all dogs are innocent. Every non-human form of life is innocent of the many sins the Bible spells out. Initially, I was angry. How could God cause my innocent dog to suffer, regardless of his motive or intent? The standard "mysterious ways" line didn't help at all. What did help was the realization that the best explanation was not that god was mysterious or unknowable, but that he simply wasn't there. The existence of the god described by the Bible and by our preacher and the believers I would talk with was simply not possible; not only because it violated all the laws of nature but because absolutely no evidence I could find supported the idea. Every thing I could learn about the world and how it worked refuted the idea of a caring, personal god who had created miraculous humans and a miraculous Earth to be their home and was everpresent, watching over us and, on proper supplication, violating the laws that he himself had set in place - if he felt like it.

As the years went by I simply became more and more convinced that there is a great deal about the working of the universe we do not yet know, but the basics - the principal of uniformitarianism, holds, everywhere and everywhen. Nothing is supernatural. No will directs or inspires the stream of events taking place over the passage of time. Only physics.

What signs or signals should I have caught that might have lured me back to my childhood faith? And how might my life have been different had I done so? I have lots of friends and I'm pretty sure most of them think I'm a nice guy. I buy fully and heartily into the Golden Rule. I believe it to be the sole basis of human civilization. How do you think my complete lack of divine faith hurt me? Will your god throw into a lake of fire because I led a good life but failed to do him obeisance? That is, of course, precisely what scriptures tells us. Why would ANY of you believe, much less WORSHIP such a god? He seems a monster. Would anyone care to correct me?

Nice OP. Nice personal touch with your dog. What you say is perfectly logical and consistent to me.

My wife grew up in China and is perhaps even more atheistic than you or I — as we had to struggle to free ourselves of inherited communal theistic religion, while the very idea to her always seemed quite naturally ridiculous. Her sense of herself and society and her very language is not filled with unconscious religious imagery, as ours is. She’s also an honest and good wife, with a few quaint little superstitions perhaps.

Talking about superstitions and atheism, while I agree with you that the whole organized rigmarole of Theistic religion is nonsense, it certainly was a fairly natural development, historically important, and produced great art while it molded our culture and many civilizations.

Even without religion there will always be pain, suffering and fear of unknowable aspects of life & death likely to create deep spiritual, social, even sometimes political perturbations. Individual superstitious belief often crops up in these situations, and can even grow into religious belief.

Should nuclear war or some other factor lead to the collapse of civilization, my bet is that religion will once again raise its head among the survivors, perhaps quite intensely.

 

[Blues Man]

And the reason for your adversarial behaviors towards them.

So what?

Why do I have to pretend that these institutions are "good"?

To spare your tender feelings?

If you don't like what I say stop listening.

 

[ding]

So what?

Why do I have to pretend that these institutions are "good"?

To spare your tender feelings?

If you don't like what I say stop listening.

And yet you deny your are trying to subordinate religion while simultaneously rationalizing why you subordinate them. Your cluelessness is off the chart.

 

[Blues Man]

And yet you deny your are trying to subordinate religion while simultaneously rationalizing why you subordinate them. Your cluelessness is off the chart.

Criticizing truthfully is not subordination.

You want to say that religion is a sacred cow and cannot be held in anything but a positive light.

IOW you want to tell lies

 

[ding]

Criticizing truthfully is not subordination.

You want to say that religion is a sacred cow and cannot be held in anything but a positive light.

IOW you want to tell lies

You are so full of shit. This is personal for you.

 

[Blues Man]

You are so full of shit. This is personal for you.

No it's personal for YOU.

And YOU are an endless source of entertainment

Go ahead and criticize my beliefs and see how upset I get.

You're going to be sorely disappointed

 

[ding]

No it's personal for YOU.

And YOU are an endless source of entertainment

Go ahead and criticize my beliefs and see how upset I get.

You're going to be sorely disappointed

Yes, it is personal for me. Did you expect I would invite you in for milk and cookies as you try to tear down my faith? It's like you are devoid of logic and reasoning abilities.