Zone1 I've been an atheist for 60 years and have never once been tempted to believe in any god

[Blues Man]

Yes, it is personal for me. Did you expect I would invite you in for milk and cookies as you try to tear down my faith? It's like you are devoid of logic and reasoning abilities.

Do you think I give a flying fuck if you invite me over for milk and cookies?

Besides I am a vegan and won't contribute to your torture and mistreatment of animals.

 

[ding]

Do you think I give a flying fuck if you invite me over for milk and cookies?

Besides I am a vegan and won't contribute to your torture and mistreatment of animals.

I think you know what you are doing is wrong and that's why you won't own what you are doing.

Please tell me more about how Christianity is a blight on humanity and how you are really just criticizing Christianity for the good of humanity.

 

[Blues Man]

I think you know what you are doing is wrong and that's why you won't own what you are doing.

Please tell me more about how Christianity is a blight on humanity and how you are really just criticizing Christianity for the good of humanity.

Where did I say I was doing anything for the good of humanity?

Please quote the post.

 

[ding]

Where did I say I was doing anything for the good of humanity?

Please quote the post.

If you believe Christianity is detrimental to society and a blight on humanity then the logical conclusion of your attacks on Christianity are that you are doing it for the good of humanity.

 

[Blues Man]

If you believe Christianity is detrimental to society and a blight on humanity then the logical conclusion of your attacks on Christianity are that you are doing it for the good of humanity.

No it isn't.

People do all kinds of shit that is detrimental and that in no way means I must stop them from doing so.

It's like the line in a Batman movie.

I'm not going to kill you but I don't have to save you. I don't have to save anyone from what I think are their own poor decisions.

 

[Libby von H]

Confucianism is far more concerned with social order and that people respect their superiors that it is with the individual living in balance with the way

But the great Chinese explicator of Confucianism in the West converted to Catholicism ,JOHN C H WU

"
A graduate of the University of Michigan Law School, he was the principal author of the constitution of the Republic of China.[2] He maintained a correspondence with U.S. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. and later produced scholarly work examining Holmes' legal thought. Previously a Methodist, he was a convert to Roman Catholicism after reading Thérèse of Lisieux's biography.



Wu served as an adviser in the Chinese delegation to the 1945 United Nations Conference on International Organization in San Francisco and served as the Chinese ambassador to the Vatican in 1947-49.[3] In 1957, Wu was appointed a judge of the Permanent Court of Arbitration in the Hague.[3] After the Chinese Communist Revolution, Wu worked as a professor at the Seton Hall University School of Law in New Jersey until retiring to Taiwan in 1967"

• Chinese Humanism and Christian spirituality (Jamaica, New York: St. John's University Press, 1965)
• Beyond East and West (New York: Sheed and Ward, 1951) (Taipei: Mei Ya Publications, 1951) (New York: Sheed and Ward, 1952) (Taipei: Mei Ya Publications, 1969) (Beijing: She hui ke xue wen xian chu ban she, 2002)
• From Confucianism to Catholicism (Huntingdon, Indiana: Our Sunday Visitor Press, 1949)

 

[Libby von H]

Doesn;t that contradict the entire idea of free will?

Guess what ? You'd never think it possible but you are both wrong.
Free will that does not have an absolutely fixed pre-determined end (as in ends and means) is a random will

 

[Libby von H]

No it isn't.

People do all kinds of shit that is detrimental and that in no way means I must stop them from doing so.

It's like the line in a Batman movie.

I'm not going to kill you but I don't have to save you. I don't have to save anyone from what I think are their own poor decisions.

Oops another case of word homicide.
It is your duty to work for the good for everyone, period. You should be praying for them at least. And you should never just consign them gleefully to destruction.

“The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those who in time of moral crisis preserve their neutrality.”

 

[Blues Man]

But the great Chinese explicator of Confucianism in the West converted to Catholicism ,JOHN C H WU

"
A graduate of the University of Michigan Law School, he was the principal author of the constitution of the Republic of China.[2] He maintained a correspondence with U.S. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. and later produced scholarly work examining Holmes' legal thought. Previously a Methodist, he was a convert to Roman Catholicism after reading Thérèse of Lisieux's biography.



Wu served as an adviser in the Chinese delegation to the 1945 United Nations Conference on International Organization in San Francisco and served as the Chinese ambassador to the Vatican in 1947-49.[3] In 1957, Wu was appointed a judge of the Permanent Court of Arbitration in the Hague.[3] After the Chinese Communist Revolution, Wu worked as a professor at the Seton Hall University School of Law in New Jersey until retiring to Taiwan in 1967"

• Chinese Humanism and Christian spirituality (Jamaica, New York: St. John's University Press, 1965)
• Beyond East and West (New York: Sheed and Ward, 1951) (Taipei: Mei Ya Publications, 1951) (New York: Sheed and Ward, 1952) (Taipei: Mei Ya Publications, 1969) (Beijing: She hui ke xue wen xian chu ban she, 2002)
• From Confucianism to Catholicism (Huntingdon, Indiana: Our Sunday Visitor Press, 1949)

So what?

Lots of people do stupid things.

I was never much for Confucianism anyway too many stupid rituals and an authoritarian style just like religion Maybe that's why WU liked it

 

[Blues Man]

Oops another case of word homicide.
It is your duty to work for the good for everyone, period. You should be praying for them at least. And you should never just consign them gleefully to destruction.

“The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those who in time of moral crisis preserve their neutrality.”

No it is not my duty to do anything. And I'm not going to pray to a god that would kill people because he got miffed. When you think about it that's the last thing anyone who cared about people would do.

I am the arbiter of my actions not you, not some god and not the government.

and I guess Pope Pius XII is burning the hottest part of hell right now huh?

And I see no moral crisis in the works

But it is funny you talking of morals when you claimed to be leaving the forum for your moral objection to the advertising and yet here you are you and your weak moral convictions telling me what to do.

 

[Mashmont]

If you believe Christianity is detrimental to society and a blight on humanity then the logical conclusion of your attacks on Christianity are that you are doing it for the good of humanity.

The fact of the matter is the Catholic Church has done far more good for the world than any other organization in history

 

[ding]

The fact of the matter is the Catholic Church has done far more good for the world than any other organization in history

By any objective measure no other institution has shaped Western Civilization more.

 

[ding]

No it isn't.

People do all kinds of shit that is detrimental and that in no way means I must stop them from doing so.

It's like the line in a Batman movie.

I'm not going to kill you but I don't have to save you. I don't have to save anyone from what I think are their own poor decisions.

It's hilarious that you think you are hiding your contempt. You see Christianity as harmful and detrimental to humanity and you expect me to believe that you aren't actively arguing for its end. How dumb are you?

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

By any objective measure no other institution has shaped Western Civilization more.

In some ways that is — for better and worse — true.

Religious superstition, a kind of organized insanity, is today generally detrimental. That is my view. At best it is a kind of crutch, an “ideology” like so many others. A very old one. It does provide for its faithful a pseudo-consolation in facing life’s many difficulties, and also a sense of salvation and superiority, based on long-lasting “institutional authority.”

But its antiquity is precisely its greatest weakness, as it has become less relevant, more reactionary, and even laughably unbelievable in modern times. Like modern nationalism and other mass ideologies, it does provide a collective identity … that often actually divides, has led to countless wars, and upholds narrow millennia-old absurdities which oppose more modern Enlightened views.

This doesn’t mean Protestant Christianity or Catholicism of Eastern Orthodoxy or Judaism have not contributed in different ways to Western civilization! Far from it. They shape our very language. They have shaped and molded countless Western countries’ different histories.

My own belief is that “Western Civilization” would have evolved in the same general direction without any of these particular Judeo-Christian institutions, probably even under a triumphant Islam. Developing capitalism would most likely still have forced humankind into the modern world, along with the “Golden Rule” and a complex morality … in any case.

Greek and Roman origins of “Western Civilization” in the diverse Mediterranean trading civilizations of the past, combined with diverse Eastern influences, were the philosophic / religious and eventually “imperial” and “national” ideologies available. They were all that was needed to evolve over centuries into our present prevailing — if also crisis ridden — “liberal democratic” form of capitalism.

Moral philosophy and laws exist everywhere there are large societies. Judiasm, Christianity, even less the Catholic Church, were never “necessary” to their development. Enlightened thinking and scientific, social and political development — these were essential.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Criticizing truthfully is not subordination.

Of course it isn't. Ding cannot handle your points directly. So he invents low hanging fruit for himself.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Where did I say I was doing anything for the good of humanity?

Please quote the post.

See what I mean? Notice how you have to do that with literally most of your posts, when you are posting with him.

All he has to do is stop, and people would actually post with him.

 

[Blues Man]

It's hilarious that you think you are hiding your contempt. You see Christianity as harmful and detrimental to humanity and you expect me to believe that you aren't actively arguing for its end. How dumb are you?

I have never hidden by contempt for organized religion.

But I am not actively working to subordinate or abolish it. You people can make your own choices.

 

[Mashmont]

In some ways that is — for better and worse — true.

Religious superstition, a kind of organized insanity, is today generally detrimental. That is my view. At best it is a kind of crutch, an “ideology” like so many others. A very old one. It does provide for its faithful a pseudo-consolation in facing life’s many difficulties, and also a sense of salvation and superiority, based on long-lasting “institutional authority.”

But its antiquity is precisely its greatest weakness, as it has become less relevant, more reactionary, and even laughably unbelievable in modern times. Like modern nationalism and other mass ideologies, it does provide a collective identity … that often actually divides, has led to countless wars, and upholds narrow millennia-old absurdities which oppose more modern Enlightened views.

This doesn’t mean Protestant Christianity or Catholicism of Eastern Orthodoxy or Judaism have not contributed in different ways to Western civilization! Far from it. They shape our very language. They have shaped and molded countless Western countries’ different histories.

My own belief is that “Western Civilization” would have evolved in the same general direction without any of these particular Judeo-Christian institutions, probably even under a triumphant Islam. Developing capitalism would most likely still have forced humankind into the modern world, along with the “Golden Rule” and a complex morality … in any case.

Greek and Roman origins of “Western Civilization” in the diverse Mediterranean trading civilizations of the past, combined with diverse Eastern influences, were the philosophic / religious and eventually “imperial” and “national” ideologies available. They were all that was needed to evolve over centuries into our present prevailing — if also crisis ridden — “liberal democratic” form of capitalism.

Moral philosophy and laws exist everywhere there are large societies. Judiasm, Christianity, even less the Catholic Church, were never “necessary” to their development. Enlightened thinking and scientific, social and political development — these were essential.

You say religion is detrimental. But could anything be more detrimental than atheism? 100 million deaths in the last century by murderous atheist regimes. The five officially atheist governments in the world today: Cuba, China, North Korea, Vietnam, and Laos, are all abject hellhole prisons.

Taken personally, atheists lead all belief groups in alcoholism, drug abuse, broken relationships, and suicides. Devout practicing Christians have the least number of these things.

 

[ding]

In some ways that is — for better and worse — true.

Religious superstition, a kind of organized insanity, is today generally detrimental. That is my view. At best it is a kind of crutch, an “ideology” like so many others. A very old one. It does provide for its faithful a pseudo-consolation in facing life’s many difficulties, and also a sense of salvation and superiority, based on long-lasting “institutional authority.”

But its antiquity is precisely its greatest weakness, as it has become less relevant, more reactionary, and even laughably unbelievable in modern times. Like modern nationalism and other mass ideologies, it does provide a collective identity … that often actually divides, has led to countless wars, and upholds narrow millennia-old absurdities which oppose more modern Enlightened views.

This doesn’t mean Protestant Christianity or Catholicism of Eastern Orthodoxy or Judaism have not contributed in different ways to Western civilization! Far from it. They shape our very language. They have shaped and molded countless Western countries’ different histories.

My own belief is that “Western Civilization” would have evolved in the same general direction without any of these particular Judeo-Christian institutions, probably even under a triumphant Islam. Developing capitalism would most likely still have forced humankind into the modern world, along with the “Golden Rule” and a complex morality … in any case.

Greek and Roman origins of “Western Civilization” in the diverse Mediterranean trading civilizations of the past, combined with diverse Eastern influences, were the philosophic / religious and eventually “imperial” and “national” ideologies available. They were all that was needed to evolve over centuries into our present prevailing — if also crisis ridden — “liberal democratic” form of capitalism.

Moral philosophy and laws exist everywhere there are large societies. Judiasm, Christianity, even less the Catholic Church, were never “necessary” to their development. Enlightened thinking and scientific, social and political development — these were essential.

Path not taken so we will never really know which direction would have been chosen. The fact remains though that:

1. Modern science was born in the Catholic Church
2. Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market economics five hundred years before Adam Smith
3. The Catholic Church invented the university
4. Western law grew out of Church canon law
5. The Catholic Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life

People can argue and disagree all they want but until they can name another institution that shaped Western Civilization more than the HRCC it's turtles all the way down.

 

[Blues Man]

You say religion is detrimental. But could anything be more detrimental than atheism? 100 million deaths in the last century by murderous atheist regimes. The five officially atheist governments in the world today: Cuba, China, North Korea, Vietnam, and Laos, are all abject hellhole prisons.

Taken personally, atheists lead all belief groups in alcoholism, drug abuse, broken relationships, and suicides. Devout practicing Christians have the least amount of these things.

All authoritarian regimes are guilty of such crimes.

How many people did the RCC murder it it's long history?