i've re-considered the entire Ukraine case.. enter *your* opinions please..

[AZrailwhale]

My question didn’t assume mindless hypotheticals.

And your point is of course pointless anyway. Let’s see why. Let’s use Vietnam as an example to fill in your idiotic blanks.
We did invade Vietnam. They obviously hadn’t invaded us. Vietnam was a sovereign nation at the time. So obviously, we were to blame for our decision and action of going into fight that “police action” barring other factors.

But let’s go further. Let’s say for the sake of the discussion that no other factors justified our military action. And, now?

Can we undo history? Nope. But can we potentially help stop Russia from the wrong that it IS NOW COMMITTING? Yes.

But your pointless is otherwise still useless.

We didn't invade the RVN. The REPUBLIC of VIETNAM was embroiled in a war against the PRVN. PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC of VIETNAM. The sitting government of the RVN requested our support under the SEATO treaty of which we were both signatories. The PRVN requested support from the People's Republic of China and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Both the RVN and PRVN were sovereign countries, free to make treaties and request foreign assistance.

 

[AZrailwhale]

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat rediculous bullshit, it's still just bullshit.

There was never any emminent threat from Ukraine to Russia and they haze ZERO legitimate claim to any Ukranian lands PERIOD.

Anyone who can read a map can see why Russia invaded Ukraine. Russia wanted a secure land bridge to Sevastopol. Sevastopol is Russia's only year-round ice-free port. That makes it an important port to the Russian surface navy (such as it is anymore).

 

[AntonToo]

Anyone who can read a map can see why Russia invaded Ukraine. Russia wanted a secure land bridge to Sevastopol. Sevastopol is Russia's only year-round ice-free port. That makes it an important port tot eh Russian surface navy (such as it is anymore).

Wanting another country's land is not a legitimate reason for an invasion.

Can't believe I have to explain that.

 

[AZrailwhale]

The US has always had a peculiar interpretation of crimes against humanity:
Since the demise of the USSR, we don't even try to hide the farce.

Noam Chomsky: How the US "Politically Vulgarizes" Genocide and War Crimes

"We could, for example, listen to Justice Robert Jackson — the chief prosecutor of Nuremberg — his injunction to the tribunal. He spoke to the tribunal and said: We have to recognize that crimes are crimes whether they commit them or we commit them. We are handing these defendants, he said, a poisoned chalice, and if we sip from it, we must be subject to the same conditions. If not, the whole trial is a farce.

"Is that applied when Britain and the United States invaded Iraq?

"It is a textbook example of aggression with absolutely no justification, [a] textbook example of what the Nuremberg tribunal called the 'supreme international crime,' which differs from other war crimes in that it includes all of the evil that follows.

"For example, the rise of ISIS [also known as Daesh] and the death of millions of people, includes all of that.

"Can you find any commentary in the United States even calling [the US-UK invasion] a crime?"

Let's see, Iraq was invading its neighbors, raping and killing civilians and looting Kuwait. The UN warned Iraq that its conduct was illegal and unacceptable, and Iraq ignored the warning. The UN unanimously passed Resolution 660 declaring Iraq's annexation of Kuwait illegal and authorizing military action by member nations to expel Iraq. The second UN/Iraq War was the direct result of Iraq violating no less than nine UN resolutions about Iraq violating the terms of the cease-fire that stopped combat in the first UN/Iraq war. So Chomsky is full of crap as usual.

 

[BackAgain]

We didn't invade the RVN. The REPUBLIC of VIETNAM was embroiled in a war against the PRVN. PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC of VIETNAM. The sitting government of the RVN requested our support under the SEATO treaty of which we were both signatories. The PRVN requested support from the People's Republic of China and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Both the RVN and PRVN were sovereign countries, free to make treaties and request foreign assistance.

Every word of that ^ post is simply beside the point.

 

[AlexanderPK]

Wanting someone else's land is not a legitimate reason for an invasion.

Can't believe I have to explain that.

What have legitimacy and the West got in common? If you throw it out the window every day of the week why should we have to bother? We just want to wring the neck of that fucking Nazy regime you installed there in 2014.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Wanting another country's land is not a legitimate reason for an invasion.

Can't believe I have to explain that.

I never said Russia's conduct was legitimate. I have been against Russia's UNPROVOKED INVASION from the beginning. But the first step in defeating an enemy is learning their true objective. Then you can prevent them from achieving that. That's why for any lasting peace, Russia will have to be fully repelled and the 1991 borders of Ukraine restored AND the lease of Sevastopol to the Russian Navy cancelled. That will remove any justification for future invasions.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Every word of that ^ post is simply beside the point.

No that is the point. The only invasion was that of PRVN forces invading the RVN against international law. Of course, a case could be made that the PRVN also invaded Cambodia and Laos when it built bases there and routed war material through both countries on the Ho Chi Minh Trail in violation of international law on neutrality.

 

[AZrailwhale]

I’m trying to enlighten you, but war loving idiots like you are a tough nut to crack.

How many Ukrainians must die for you to be happy?

How many Americans died in the Revolution and War of 1812 repelling British aggression? There are worse deaths than those suffered defending your country from an invader.

 

[AntonToo]

What have legitimacy and the West got in common? If you throw it out the window every day of the week why should we have to bother? We just want to wring the neck of that fucking Nazy regime you installed there in 2014.

You are asking why you have to bother with legitimacy?

Good job conceding the argument.

If all you have is "but what about others!!" To justify your invasion then maybe it's time to take hard look in the mirror Sasha.

Zelensky's government was dully elected. He is a Jew who's uncles died fighting Nazis along side Russians. Take your insane Nazi bs is shove it up your ass, no one outside of Kremlin propaganda bubble is buying that nonsense.

 

[para bellum]

Sevastopol is Russia's only year-round ice-free port. That makes it an important port tot eh Russian surface navy (such as it is anymore).

They also have Novorossiysk (and Sochi, but that is geared for commercial passenger traffic).

For most of the war there have been 4 Kilo-class SSK's in Sevastopol. Then Ukraine started doing the drone attacks in Crimea.

The Kilos don't need to be close to Ukraine to fire their Kaliber missiles, but they are vulnerable when they are tied to the pier. So about 3 weeks ago, they joined the remaining phibs at Novorossiysk to get them out of drone range.

Novorossiysk was pretty run-down from decades of neglect, and Russia poured a lot of money into Sevestapol. But there have been investments made in Novorossiysk in recent years, and it's a large all-season port and probably the most important port to Russia in the Black Sea.

Plus Russia had a deal for long-term tenancy at Sevestapol- Putin didn't need to invade Ukraine to get that...

 

[AlexanderPK]

Why do you have to bother with legitimacy?

Good job conceding the argument.

If all you have is "but what about others!!" To justify your invasion then maybe it's time to take hard look in the mirror Sasha.

Your legitimacy means shit to us. It's been vaporising slowly since the break up of the USSR. Now it's completely vanished. You just don't have decency, the America I mean. If you're a scumbag and you act like a scumbag to me why should you expect me to be nice in return. You have to learn to howl if you have to live with the wolfs. Is that the saying that you have in English?

 

[AntonToo]

Your legitimacy means shit to us. It's been vaporising slowly since the break up of the USSR. Now it's completely vanished. You just don't have decency, the America I mean. If you're a scumbag and you act like a scumbag to me why should you expect me to be nice in return. You have to learn to howl if you have to live with the wolfs. Is that the saying that you have in English?

So just to review: you Putinists are invading, bombing and land stealing the shit out of Ukraine....because America is supposedly bad.

Did I get the entire elegance of your stupid argument?

 

[AZrailwhale]

They also have Novorossiysk (and Sochi, but that is geared for commercial passenger traffic).

For most of the war there have been 4 Kilo-class SSK's in Sevastopol. Then Ukraine started doing the drone attacks in Crimea.

The Kilos don't need to be close to Ukraine to fire their Kaliber missiles, but they are vulnerable when they are tied to the pier. So about 3 weeks ago, they joined the remaining phibs at Novorossiysk to get them out of drone range.

Novorossiysk was pretty run-down from decades of neglect, and Russia poured a lot of money into Sevestapol. But there have been investments made in Novorossiysk in recent years, and it's a large all-season port and probably the most important port to Russia in the Black Sea.

Plus Russia had a deal for long-term tenancy at Sevestapol- Putin didn't need to invade Ukraine to get that...

He had an occupancy deal, but access was controlled by Ukraine. Like Berlin in the late forties when the Soviets blockaded all surface access, Ukraine could shut down Russian access at will making the port useless.

 

[alexa]

Let's see, Iraq was invading its neighbors, raping and killing civilians and looting Kuwait. The UN warned Iraq that its conduct was illegal and unacceptable, and Iraq ignored the warning. The UN unanimously passed Resolution 660 declaring Iraq's annexation of Kuwait illegal and authorizing military action by member nations to expel Iraq.

OK the 2nd Iraq war is what he is speaking of

The second UN/Iraq War was the direct result of Iraq violating no less than nine UN resolutions about Iraq violating the terms of the cease-fire that stopped combat in the first UN/Iraq war. So Chomsky is full of crap as usual.

Well then it is a pity that the US and UK did not hear the UN saying that it was an illegal war. I heard nothing about Iraq violating 9 UN resolutions but I do know that we in the UK were told that Iraq had WMD's which could reach the UK in 45 minutes and so we must go to war with them to stop this and I do know that one of our intelligence officers said that when they told the British Government that they could find no evidence of Iraq being a danger to us - that Iran was very definitely more of a danger, they were told to create information which could be used to justify a war. So lets be clear the Iraq war was fought because the UK and US wanted to fight. Chomsky is talking of misusing the word Genocide. He says

Is that applied when Britain and the United States invaded Iraq? It is a textbook example of aggression with absolutely no justification, [a] textbook example of what the Nuremberg tribunal called the “supreme international crime,” which differs from other war crimes in that it includes all of the evil that follows. For example, the rise of ISIS [also known as Daesh] and the death of millions of people, includes all of that. Can you find any commentary in the United States even calling [the US-UK invasion] a crime?[/quote

Noam Chomsky: How the US “Politically Vulgarizes” Genocide and War Crimes

The US has never used the terms genocide or war crimes to define its own historical and current actions.

truthout.org

It is a textbook example of aggression with absolutely no justification - fake reasons were given for the war and he correctly Blames the US/UK for the millions who died because of that aggression.

If as he says, in the US this war was not seen as a crime, then that if very different from the UK.

 

[AntonToo]

Do the truth and conviction by your stupid court always correlate?

No justice system is 100% perfect, but American justice system is one of the best in the world. (unlike corrupt Russian clown courts).

Absolutely it's trustworthy.

 

[AntonToo]

You made a martyr of a criminal and a drug addict and sentenced Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey for God doesn't know what they presumably did a century ago.

....so sexually molesting people is no big deal and having some prescribed, personal use weed on you is grounds for 10 year prison sentence.

This is exactly why people think Russia is a backward country.

 

[georgephillip]

You are repeating exactly what I said, there was no civil war until Russia formed these militia and sent them to provide a pretext for the invasion.

The civil war started when a violent mob lead by neo-Nazis and supported by Victoria Nuland, John McCain, and Joe Biden drove a duly elected president from office by murdering police officers and protestors.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...this-one-map-helps-explain-ukraines-protests/

"No single datapoint could capture or explain all of that. But the map below comes perhaps as close as anything could. It shows Ukraine, color-coded by the country's major ethnic and linguistic divisions."

A majority of Ukrainians voted for Yanukovych in 2010, and they weren't going to allow Nazis to take over. Ukraine is the second most corrupt state in Europe, and it was never worth a single US dollar.

It still isn't.

 

[AlexanderPK]

Take your insane Nazi bs is shove it up your ass, no one outside of Kremlin propaganda bubble is buying that nonsense.

Weren't you trying to say the whole world is not buying? Do I have to school you that China and India make more than half of the world? There's also Africa and South America and others too. What part of the World do they make together? So you better shove yours up Biden's and company's.

 

[AntonToo]

Weren't you trying to say the whole world is not buying? Do I have to school you that China and India make more than half of the world? There's also Africa and South America and others too. What part of the World do they make together? So you better shove yours up Biden's and company's.

Yep, go sell that bullshit to Chinese, along with whatever you can dig from under your feet, for heavy discount.