Jane Roe going to Supreme Court.....

[dmp]

Welfare weakens the human spirit - name a famous, heroic, former welfare recipient (not including Rap artists).

My father is Heroic.

 

[Annie]

At what point does that happen? Most abortions, in fact over 99 percent take place after brain function begins at 40 days. Almost no abortion other than spontaneous abortion takes place at the zygote level. At 40 days there is brain function and a heartbeat the life is no longer undifferentiated cells.

Almost all abortions take place in the second trimester when the fetus actually attempts to move away from the devices used to terminate their life, ineffectual defense but a defense nonetheless.

Have you ever watched the video at silentscream.org? It may give you some interesting things on which to think at the least.

I am trying to be a little more upfront on my thoughts, recognizing I'm really not willing to get into arguments, I figure I'll do what I do best, link! :dev1:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/...xml&sSheet=/opinion/2005/01/23/ixopinion.html

Registration required:

Our own Holocaust
(Filed: 23/01/2005)

Thursday is the 60th anniversary of the Russian army's entry into Auschwitz. The discovery of the ruins of that death camp revealed to the world the scale of the Nazi extermination programme. More than a million people were murdered in Auschwitz, the overwhelming majority of them Jews. This grim anniversary will inevitably be an occasion for some smug self-congratulation from politicians: part of the point of reminding ourselves how awful the Nazis were is to tell ourselves of how good we are by comparison.

And yet the moral depravity of the Nazis is not as distant as those horrific pictures of gas chambers and mountains of corpses suggest. Hitler's holocaust began in the 1930s with a policy which was not merely popular in other countries, but frequently practised by them: the forced sterilisation of those deemed "unfit to reproduce" because they were thought to carry a genetic predisposition to mental or physical handicap. Socialist intellectuals in Britain such as George Bernard Shaw were enthusiastic proponents of that policy. The US Supreme Court ruled that forced sterilisation was compatible with the Constitution in 1927, when Oliver Wendell Holmes confidently stated that it was "better for all the world if society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind". Over the next decade, the United States forcibly sterilised more than 20,000 women – a number dwarfed by the Swedes, who only stopped forcibly sterilising women for carrying "defective genes" in the 1970s.

Forced sterilisation is not murder, of course. But the Nazis' slide from the forced sterilisation of the mentally handicapped to their mass murder suggests how slippery the slope from the one to the other can be. As the BBC's outstanding series on Auschwitz demonstrates, the Nazis decided that it was not worth feeding and nursing "gibbering idiots", and that they could not "burden future generations with their care". They claimed that the most "humane" alternative was to exterminate the people they called "useless eaters". They experimented with gas as a discreet method of killing the mentally handicapped before they transferred that innovation to killing Jews. By the summer of 1941, 70,000 disabled people had been killed by being invited into showers – which turned out to dispense not water but carbon monoxide. Three doctors would look at the medical records of a "patient". They would mark the records with a red cross if they thought the individual was a suitable candidate for "evacuation". A majority vote decided his or her fate. The advantages of gassing were that it was hidden from view: shooting people en masse had the effect of turning even SS men into depressed drunks.

There are disturbing parallels with our present laws on abortion. To abort an unborn child beyond 24 weeks' gestation is recognised in British law as infanticide – but only if the child is thought to be "normal". If doctors diagnose physical or mental handicap, including, it seems, a cleft palate, it is lawful to kill the unborn child at any time up to its birth. This is a programme for eliminating the handicapped. Its justification is that it is better "not to burden" either the present or future generations with their care. It differs in practice from the mass murder in Nazi Germany – but it is not easy to articulate how it differs at the level of moral principle. The state is killing unborn children because we do not want to live with them, or to bear the costs of looking after them. It is a justification the Nazis would have appreciated.

About 200,000 unborn children are aborted every year in England and Wales, many because doctors have decided they will be handicapped. That is a killing rate of nearly 550 a day: less than the number of people gassed daily at Auschwitz, but a horrifically large number none the less – and larger than the numbers of defenceless handicapped murdered by the Nazis.

We have successfully disguised the enormity of what we are doing from ourselves, just as the Nazis did. Next Thursday should not be an occasion for congratulating ourselves on how far we have come from the moral abyss of National Socialism. It should rather prompt an honest recognition of how disturbingly close our abortion laws have taken us to it.

 

[CivilLiberty]

LMAO--thats like "finders keepers"----so you "obviously" are in favor of women having 100% control over who lives to be born ?

That should be apparent from my many posts.

Andy

 

[dilloduck]

That should be apparent from my many posts.

Andy

fine---delegate all the authority to the women---( But why are they even killing the ones already born ?)

And let the rest of us fight for equal rights to our children !

 

[CivilLiberty]

At what point does that happen? Most abortions, in fact over 99 percent take place after brain function begins at 40 days. Almost no abortion other than spontaneous abortion takes place at the zygote level. At 40 days there is brain function and a heartbeat the life is no longer undifferentiated cells.

Almost all abortions take place in the second trimester when the fetus actually attempts to move away from the devices used to terminate their life, ineffectual defense but a defense nonetheless.

FALSE. 80% of abortions take place in the FIRST trimester.

And plenty of terminations happen at the zygote level, but they are not called abortions (result of morning after pill) and thus don't make it into the statistic.


Andy

 

[dilloduck]

That should be apparent from my many posts.

Andy

I've always wondered about guys who were all for abortions--is this some white knight thing you got going on or do you just not want to be responsible for what you may create ?

 

[CivilLiberty]

Andy you know as well as I do that just about every columnists or spokesperson from NOW and NARAL that speaks about the opposition does so in an extremely degrading and insulting way, and they do this precisely to make pro-lifers look extreme, closed minded, stupid, fanatical,

Many anti abortionists ARE fanatics, and so yes, they stand out.

.......It's really a very simple idea. The pro-chioce movement is very good at PR and they make a lot of money from abortions...

Right. Planned Parenthood is a NON PROFIT organization. This argument that there's some sort of corporate "abortion industry" is just plain loony.

If you want to separate yourself from the fanatic element, this would be a good argument to NOT use.

By the way most pro-lifers don't even spend time on trying to change the law, they spend their time changing minds one potential mother at a time by giving them viable alternatives to abortion, and praying to change minds and hearts.

All fine with that.

I completely support a position where you are against abortion, yet also against abortion prohibition laws.


Andy

 

[elephant]

Don't know what the "number" of legal abortions per capita has to do with anything, but:

I'd attribute the DECREASE in the 90s due to the fact that more people are practicing safe sex due to the AIDS scare, thus fewer accidents.


Regards,

Andy

Well it is an indicator of the fact that education and information, NOT CHANGING THE LAW, can achieve the result that prolifers seem so eager to achieve, but are too lazy to work for. I have been saying (you would have to read all the posts and see someone asked me to prove something - which was unprovable for numerous reasons - BUT DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME) that making abaortion illegal is not the answer. The government will not be able to achieve what prolifers want with a stroke of the pen. The prolifers must actually put in time and effort and if others agree with them the number of abortions will decline. The numbers were used as an indicator that this may very well be true.

And so prolifers should not try to convince you, Civil, that life begins at conception or that you will burn in hell for even supporting the right to choose (you have indicated that you will never believe these things), but instead direct their efforts at informing you how to make responsible decisions about sex and the responsibilities that come with being a sexually active adult.

Why are you so angry about a few statistics anyway? And if the quotes indicate you doubt their validity - I did the best I could. They came from the CDC database and then I put them in per thousand terms using the Census Bureau population info. Check for yourself. I doubt the CDC or Census are out to trick me. But you may have different ideas.

 

[dilloduck]

Many anti abortionists ARE fanatics, and so yes, they stand out.




Right. Planned Parenthood is a NON PROFIT organization. This argument that there's some sort of corporate "abortion industry" is just plain loony.

If you want to separate yourself from the fanatic element, this would be a good argument to NOT use.




All fine with that.

I completely support a position where you are against abortion, yet also against abortion prohibition laws.


Andy

how about equal rights for men and women laws?

 

[CivilLiberty]

I've always wondered about guys who were all for abortions--is this some white knight thing you got going on or do you just not want to be responsible for what you may create ?

Well, as we've noted before, I write the civil liberties column for About.com, and my interest is in civil liberties. Privacy, and the right to do what you will to your own body are core civil liberties.


Regards


Andy

 

[dilloduck]

Well, as we've noted before, I write the civil liberties column for About.com, and my interest is in civil liberties. Privacy, and the right to do what you will to your own body are core civil liberties.


Regards


Andy

and being a parent isn't a liberty that men have?

 

[CivilLiberty]

Well it is an indicator of the fact that education and information, NOT CHANGING THE LAW, can achieve the result that prolifers seem so eager to achieve, but are too lazy to work for.

I agree 1000%.

And so prolifers should not try to convince you, Civil, that life begins at conception or that you will burn in hell for even supporting the right to choose (you have indicated that you will never believe these things), but instead direct their efforts at informing you how to make responsible decisions about sex and the responsibilities that come with being a sexually active adult.

Yes, I'm all for education and free speech and free thinking. I'm NOT for prohibitions.

Why are you so angry about a few statistics anyway? And if the quotes indicate you doubt their validity - I did the best I could. They came from the CDC database and then I put them in per thousand terms using the Census Bureau population info. Check for yourself. I doubt the CDC or Census are out to trick me. But you may have different ideas.

I think you misunderstand - those stats don't make me angry, nor do I question them. I was merely pointing out that the causation may have to do with the self interest of not dying from a deadly disease.



Andy

 

[Bonnie]

Many anti abortionists ARE fanatics, and so yes, they stand out.

That is a completely untrue and extremeist statement!!! Most pro-life advocates are very peaceful people who devote a lot of their free time doing positive things to end abortion. One or two lunatics that shoot up clinics does not consitute "many" in any way shape matter or form

Right. Planned Parenthood is a NON PROFIT organization. This argument that there's some sort of corporate "abortion industry" is just plain loony.

Then tell me where Planned Prenthood, NOW, and NARAL get the huge amounts of money they regularly donate to pro-abortion candidates???

 

[dilloduck]

and being a parent isn't a liberty that men have?

Surely as an expert in the field you must realize that the rights of individuals clash---your whole reasoning for being pro Roe v Wade is that the fetus is in the woman therefore she should control it? bizarre !

 

[musicman]

FALSE. 80% of abortions take place in the FIRST trimester.

Andy

Assuming that's true, that would still put them solidly in the 99% of abortions which take place AFTER brain function begins.

 

[Annie]

Surely as an expert in the field you must realize that the rights of individuals clash---your whole reasoning for being pro Roe v Wade is that the fetus is in the woman therefore she should control it? bizarre !

it pains me to agree that men should have the same rights as women! However, to agree with Civil means a woman has to say that she is a victim, that she had NO Control prior to conception.

She does, with the exception of rape, statutory or otherwise. Thus, once concieved, seems to me both parents should have a say-actually neither should be able to execute the child. But, whether one or both want to keep.

 

[musicman]

And plenty of terminations happen at the zygote level....


Andy

"Plenty" - that's a nice, round number. How many, exactly, are there in a "plenty"?

 

[elephant]

Found a cure for Cancer and AIDS maybe, but your right we will never know.

What is this point of this particular argument against abortion? Please enlighten me.

 

[Bonnie]

What is this point of this particular argument against abortion? Please enlighten me.

Very simply that about 40 million babies have been killed by abortion since 1973 and one or more of those babies could have grown up to accomplish any of those things.

And you still haven't addressed my last post to you.

Ps careful your unreasonable anger towards religious people is really showing in many of your postings....
Never a good sign of a good debater.

 

[dilloduck]

it pains me to agree that men should have the same rights as women! However, to agree with Civil means a woman has to say that she is a victim, that she had NO Control prior to conception.

She does, with the exception of rape, statutory or otherwise. Thus, once concieved, seems to me both parents should have a say-actually neither should be able to execute the child. But, whether one or both want to keep.

This assumption that only women can nuture and parent a child makes me want to rattle off ad hominems. I know so many men that have equal or better parenting skills than women I can't count em all. Men have been stereotyped by the shitty dads and this has denied MILLIONS of Dads access to their children even though they are forced by the LAW to pay for them. What kind of equality is that???? If I am married and WE want to have a child and my wife aborts it,---I am deprived of raising and loving MY OWN CHILD.

Explain to my why I should allowed my own child to be killed , Andy.----I really wanna hear this one !!