Jerry Falwell just died

[Truthmatters]

I’d like to share a personal experience to illustrate the previous post:

When I was 14 one of my teachers asked us all to stand up and pray before class.

Ignore completely any individual who tells you this is a harmless exercise of faith.

I still remember how ashamed I was, still remember all the embarrassment I felt in front of my classmates when I refused to do so and she started criticizing me.

It was not “a harmless exercise of faith”. It was an abuse, it was a disrespect, it was a violence.

When I remember these facts today I often wonder if they really happened in the West or in Saudi Arabia.

What happened to me was the result of an utterly incompetent secular state, a state that failed in its duty to enforce its own secularity to protect its minorities from disrespect and embarassament in public space (it was a public school).

This personal experience I’ve just shared with you illustrates perfectly the main point of my previous post:

Any serious democratic state has to have legal mechanisms to prevent the Jerry Falwells of the world or any other religious pressure group (and even the authoritarian “will of the majority”) from undermining the secular basis of the state.

Great example Jose,

The people who are honest enough to admitt they just dont believe the same religion as the mainstream are heroic.

What a great 14 year old you were.

You could have stood and pretended to believe as Im sure some do.
I all through high school sais the pledge of religion but never spoke the God line.

I never had anyone try to force me to pray though and would have done much the same as you did.

This country was partly created for the purpose of religious freedom.

I really wish More of the Christain majority would remember this fact.

 

[mattskramer]

Great example Jose,

The people who are honest enough to admitt they just dont believe the same religion as the mainstream are heroic.

What a great 14 year old you were.

You could have stood and pretended to believe as Im sure some do.
I all through high school sais the pledge of religion but never spoke the God line.

I never had anyone try to force me to pray though and would have done much the same as you did.

This country was partly created for the purpose of religious freedom.

I really wish More of the Christain majority would remember this fact.

I recall attending my public tax-supported high school. An atheist friend and I attended. At the start of the school day, a Christian prayer was recited over the public address system. My friend remained respectfully silent but would not bow his head. We then stood to give the “Pledge of Allegiance”. He stood up but that was all that he would do. People tended to shy away from him but I had great respect for him. It took courage for him to do what he did.

I could not do it. Being an agnostic, I still followed the crowed. I bowed my head and said “Amen” to the Christian prayer that the students heard in the public school. I stood up, placed my hand over my heart, and vocally recited the entire “Pledge” though I did not agree with all of it. I guess that some people could say that I lied. I think that that would have been better than to be shunned and thought a troublemaker.

 

[Truthmatters]

I luckily never had to deal with a morning prayer.

I will bow my head when people pray out of respect for them.

I Kinda liked the idea of the pledge but not the god line so I did not say it.

This is supposed to be a country of personal choice ,I dont tell people Im an athiest unless it comes up.

Its none of their business what I believe unless I choose to tell them.

 

[Alucard]

You know Bully


Let’s use common sense here:

If you want to study you go to a school.

If you want to pray outloud you go to a church.

If you want a hooker you go to a whorehouse.

Lets use common sense... why shouldnt Religion be taught in public schools?

 

[Truthmatters]

I would have no problem with religion being taught in puplic school.

Its a great idea.

A world religions class which teaches the kids all the major religions of the world, their histories and their beliefs would be a wonderful Idea.

 

[red states rule]

yay.. MOM JOKES....



wow...

now THAT is savvy debate right therre...


werent you JUST talking about all the hateful shit that libs say?


hey, at least you waited until after mothers day, dude..


what would dick morris say about mom jokes?

What "mom joke"

He has been whining about my rep points and I had enough of it

Since he has been whining about it I told him to call his mother and whine to her

 

[red states rule]

Lets use common sense... why shouldnt Religion be tought in public schools?

It goes against the libs agenda to remove all references of God from the public view

 

[Truthmatters]

Like I said it wouold be great to have all HS students take a world religions course.

 

[Alucard]

It goes against the libs agenda to remove all references of God from the public view

They'll just avoid the question...

 

[Superlative]

What "mom joke"

He has been whining about my rep points and I had enough of it

Since he has been whining about it I told him to call his mother and whine to her

Do what you are best at, and label it what ever you want.

There was no whining, just stating that in my opinion you didnt deserve any rep points.

Ill say it again cause you ignored it the first 3 times I called you out.

You dont attack anyone, cause you dont think for yourself, you let other people's words and opinions do the talking for you.

You counter one persons argument with someone elses.

Cause you have no opinion of your own.

Just right wing Copy ad Paste Op-Eds, and talking points.

 

[Truthmatters]

Uh guys, I just answered .....twice

 

[red states rule]

Do what you are best at, and label it what ever you want.

There was no whining, just stating that in my opinion you didnt deserve any rep points.

Ill say it again cause you ignored it the first 3 times I called you out.

You dont attack anyone, cause you dont think for yourself, you let other people's words and opinions do the talking for you.

You counter one persons argument with someone elses.

Cause you have no opinion of your own.

Just right wing Copy ad Paste Op-Eds, and talking points.

Was mommy unavailable so you are still whining here?

 

[red states rule]

They'll just avoid the question...

Libs usually avoid the truth

 

[Truthmatters]

whining?

what exactly do you consider whining ....any speach you dont like?

 

[Truthmatters]

Libs usually avoid the truth

Im a liberal!

I answered you twice!

Yes world religions class should be taught in high school

 

[Superlative]

Was mommy unavailable so you are still whining here?

oooooh, another uninventive one liner, how,

expected.

How about addressing the fact that I called you out?

Or, as usual are you going to ignore it, and attack me presonally to deflect the issue?

 

[Shogun]

Shogun
During these online debates dozens of subtopics pop up all the time and people often start them debating one thing and end up debating another, so let’s try to keep focused on the main issue here:
A democratic state has a number of features that contitute its core (meaning, without them it it isn’t a democracy any longer): the democratic process itself, the secular nature of the state, racial and gender equality etc.
I think the core values of a democratic state should be protected from the results of the electoral process by “stone clauses” which forbids the three branches of government from altering them while you believe they must be subjected to the will of the majority like any other ideal/law of the state.

This seems to be the fundamental difference between us.

Shogun, we are in fact discussing one of the oldest issues in political science:

Can the democratic process be used to overthrow democracy itself?

Can the majority of the population use the electoral process to chip away at the secular nature of the state that protects the non-religious and religious minorities against the interferences and humiliations of a confessional state (like school prayer)?

The importance and relevance of this issue is dramatic and I refuse to sit on the fence.

I take the side of the protection of the core values of democracy against the will of the majority and their pressure groups.

I can’t conceive the dilapidation of the basic principles of a secular democracy as being “a right of the electorate”.

Some people equate democracy with this “right” but they can’t even imagine how tragically mistaken they are.

This is the total corruption of all the ideals the modern democratic state stands for.

The very nature of the democratic system carries in itself the danger of its own destruction.

So I think the key elements that make up a secular democratic state should be protected not only from pressure groups like the one led by Falwell but should be protected also from the electoral process itself.

“Stone clauses” basically mean:

No matter how powerful your lobby is and no matter the size of your majority, the key elements of the democratic state simply cannot be compromised.

you give me opinons.. which is fine.. as long as you realize that yours is not the only opinion on the matter and, im betting, will fluxuate according to the issue at hand and the position in which you find yourself argueing.


for example,

the US was still a democracy before womens suffrage and civil rights. religion was venerated in school for at least 75% of our American history. indeed, slavery too. You have an opinon based on your understanding of those issues THIS SIDE of their historic relevance that is the direct product of the historic result of each issue. Sure sure.. civil rights are a positive product OF the democratic process but it simply isnt true to insist that they are mutually exclusive while considering the reality of our nations history. NOW, once these types of social variables are seperated from what you suggest is a "core value of a democratic state" we can see that, as with current unequal rights for gays, democracy is not at all reliant upon "core values" in order to function to the need of its current society. Again, ill remind you that civil rights and womens suffrage were VOTED ON and LEGISLATED into being. UNLIKE, as some will argue, The SCOTUS declaring a ban on gay marriage unconstitutional based on subjective opinions of 9 people.



We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


says nothing about "core values" that cannot be ammended in accordance to the will of the people who vote and elect representatives.

indeed, I would suggest that your idea of CORE VALUES will greatly differ than that of your fellow Americans.. Thus, we vote to include (race, gender) or exclude (weight, beauty, sexual preferance) that which qualifies for protection from the will of the majority. the FACT remains that some values are protected and some are not. the FACT remains that those that are protected are the product of a vote by the majority.


Hell, according to your logic of "core values" then we would have stagnated long ago by people who would have been busy argueing THEIR opinon of valid "core values" while blacks were still second class citizens..

Iit is the very fluidity of values to be voted on by the majority in a democracy that produced the very civil rights we are so proud of and seem to believe cannot be seperated from the concept of democrocy...



interesing discussion though.. better than usual on ths board.

 

[red states rule]

oooooh, another uninventive one liner, how,

expected.

How about addressing the fact that I called you out?

Or, as usual are you going to ignore it, and attack me presonally to deflect the issue?

yea, mommy is still unavailable

 

[Superlative]

yea, mommy is still unavailable

No worries, I just called your mom, and she told me I was wasting my time asking you to do anything other than copy and paste other peoples words.

Plagiarist.

 

[red states rule]

No worries, I just called your mom, and she told me I was wasting my time asking you to do anything other than copy and paste other peoples words.

Plagiarist.

My, my - we are a testy lib today

Woke up on the wrong side of the slab this morning?