Jesus “tells us to give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s”

[BluePhantom]

If you want to say all marriage is now called civil unions, I am fine with that. The key here is that it must apply to everyone, not just one segment. If you want to get the government out of the marriage business entirely, that is fine as well. But so long as the government is in the marriage business, then it should not be deciding who is entitled and who is not. So long as it involves competent adults, the decision should be theirs alone.

T H A N K Y O U !
PratchettFan
A G R E E D

This is what I'm saying is being left out of the arguments.
This where I believe all people can agree.

The rest can be debated in private but NOT in public courts and legislatures on public tax dollars. Why should taxpayers be punished because of people dragging their personal political and religious beliefs into courts trying to make public laws against the beliefs of others?

Well I think that's where the majority of the rational thinking population can agree. Hell they should put the three of us in charge. We can sort this out by the end of the night.

 

[Agit8r]

Yes, and the key difference is this is by FREE CHOICE and NOT imposed by the State.
THAT'S the point people seem to miss.

Even President Obama, when he finally CHOSE (by free will, not by force of law) to support gay marriage,
instead of protecting this equal choice for others to make FREELY as he did, he then made the political leap
that gay marriage should be endorsed by law. But that's NOT how HE made his choice by free will!

=========================
It is only fair to treat BOTH the beliefs for gay marriage and for traditional marriage only,
as equal beliefs. So it is NOT just a matter of the State "not imposing the traditional marriage through the State"
it is equally a matter of the State "not imposing gay marriage through the State."

I should be amazed by the number of people who can only see THEIR belief and can't respect the other.

But since this is so common, instead it amazes me when I actually find people who
treat BOTH beliefs equally as protected by law. For some reason, those people are rare,
which is sad, because that viewpoint is the one that is fair to both beliefs, and yet very few grasp that.

The only people that marriage imposes upon are those wed by it.

 

[emilynghiem]

The only people that marriage imposes upon are those wed by it.

Hi Agit8r
Tell that to the Atheists and legal groups who sue to remove Crosses.
How is this imposing on them? Yet they win, claiming to believe in separation of church and state.

 

[Agit8r]

The only people that marriage imposes upon are those wed by it.

Hi Agit8r
Tell that to the Atheists and legal groups who sue to remove Crosses.
How is this imposing on them? Yet they win, claiming to believe in separation of church and state.

Well, only they could answer that question. Perhaps it violates their conscience to see them. To me they are just like totem poles or minarets. Who cares. Now if we are talking about newly installing religious fixtures on public property in this day and age, I would say that money should be spent on something with actual utility to the whole community.

 

[TimothysAlaska]

If the Government legalizes same sex marriage, that is imposing it's will on those who do not support same sex marriage. If those who oppose same sex marriage should win the debate, then, yes, they are imposing their will on the supporters of same sex marriage. That's how Government works.

Now, why don't we allow each State to determine if they want to oppose or support same sex marriage, rather than the Federal Government? Each side has the right to petition for their beliefs, and the outcome will always be that one side wins, and one side does not. Either way, the will of one will be imposed on the will of the other.

Does gay marriage impede upon any of your daily tasks? Does gay marriage injury you physically? It is kind of like watching tv if you don't like it turn the channel.

Legalizing it will not alter your heterosexual marriage at all, in fact marriage is a contract between 2 adults, according to the government in every state. so your saying only heterosexuals can have this contract? Or that each state should decide if only heterosexuals can have this contract.

See what your doing is placing your religion on all marriages which according to the state is a binding contract. There are a lot of different religions in the USA. So by placing your religious views on all marriages you are again sponsoring a state/gov religion. Unconstitutional. Marriage is what you and your significant other makes it, and in your case it is what your religion makes it. Not everybody wants to be in your religion, so don't force your religious views on people you will never meet.


If you are Christian then you should believe in redemption/ repentance, instead of forcing your will on people by legislation, how about be a good Christian and pray for their souls instead of impeding on their free will, which free will is a Christian tenant.

 

[Politico]

Doesn't answer my question though.......or, actually it does answer my question, maybe not intentionally, but the answer is there.

What is the question? The whole crucifixion thing came about as a result of no one being willing to stand up for their convictions. Jesus was handed around like a whore at Woodstock.

 

[TimothysAlaska]

Umm

The only people that marriage imposes upon are those wed by it.

Hi Agit8r
Tell that to the Atheists and legal groups who sue to remove Crosses.
How is this imposing on them? Yet they win, claiming to believe in separation of church and state.

umm dumb argument, here is the rational on why removing crosses and Ten Commandments from government places. Christians are the majority in this country, but slowly certain areas are blooming into other religions. Would you feel better if Buddha were at the court you were in, or that during a court proceeding you swear upon the Koran or the crescent moon was on a court house? Or heck if even a satanic symbol were placed on it. If you allow it now down the road there will be no precedence to say other religions cannot have their input in government buildings. Stop it now. And keep the religious symbolism in the churches temples where they belong. Totally different then gay marriage.

 

[tipofthespear]

If you are Christian then you should believe in redemption/ repentance, instead of forcing your will on people by legislation, how about be a good Christian and pray for their souls instead of impeding on their free will, which free will is a Christian tenant.

Isn't it odd that you guys don't mind in the least "forcing your will" on Christians, but, oh golly gee, don't you Christians try and "force your will" on us........

I certainly believe in redemption/repentance and free will. If you understood the Christian Faith, you would know that Salvation is a personal relationship between God and man.
The Government deciding to legalize same sex marriage is not about a personal relationship, it is about defining the Institution of Marriage of which God is the Creator.
Government ONLY became involved in Marriage when it realized that there was a profit to be made.

Christians have the same right to campaign for their Faith/beliefs as do unbelievers. Marriage has not one thing to do with Salvation by the way......so that part of your argument is worthless.

• 
• 
• 

Report

 

[PratchettFan]

If you are Christian then you should believe in redemption/ repentance, instead of forcing your will on people by legislation, how about be a good Christian and pray for their souls instead of impeding on their free will, which free will is a Christian tenant.

Isn't it odd that you guys don't mind in the least "forcing your will" on Christians, but, oh golly gee, don't you Christians try and "force your will" on us........

I certainly believe in redemption/repentance and free will. If you understood the Christian Faith, you would know that Salvation is a personal relationship between God and man.
The Government deciding to legalize same sex marriage is not about a personal relationship, it is about defining the Institution of Marriage of which God is the Creator.
Government ONLY became involved in Marriage when it realized that there was a profit to be made.

Christians have the same right to campaign for their Faith/beliefs as do unbelievers. Marriage has not one thing to do with Salvation by the way......so that part of your argument is worthless.

• 
• 
• 

Report

Of course you have the right to campaign and express you opinions as you please. No one is saying otherwise. But that does not change the nature of your argument. Your position is not allowing you to force your beliefs on others is allowing others to force their beliefs upon you. I say again, this is why the argument is losing in court. "Because I don't like it" is not a valid reason to deny anyone equal protection under the law.

 

[PostmodernProph]

“It is possible to have deep and passionately-held convictions without seeking to have those convictions imposed by the State on fellow citizens who do not share them”.

Fr Iggy O Donovan calls for Yes vote in marriage referendum

if the vote is 'Yes' won't the State impose same sex marriage upon all of society even though some citizens do not share that belief?.......

 

[PostmodernProph]

The only people that marriage imposes upon are those wed by it.

and yet we have already seen threats made against bakers and florists for refusing to provide services for same sex marriages......

 

[TimothysAlaska]

If you are Christian then you should believe in redemption/ repentance, instead of forcing your will on people by legislation, how about be a good Christian and pray for their souls instead of impeding on their free will, which free will is a Christian tenant.

Isn't it odd that you guys don't mind in the least "forcing your will" on Christians, but, oh golly gee, don't you Christians try and "force your will" on us........

I certainly believe in redemption/repentance and free will. If you understood the Christian Faith, you would know that Salvation is a personal relationship between God and man.
The Government deciding to legalize same sex marriage is not about a personal relationship, it is about defining the Institution of Marriage of which God is the Creator.
Government ONLY became involved in Marriage when it realized that there was a profit to be made.

Christians have the same right to campaign for their Faith/beliefs as do unbelievers. Marriage has not one thing to do with Salvation by the way......so that part of your argument is worthless.

• 
• 
• 

Report

Am I forcing you to marry a gay person? No! So how am I forcing my will upon anybody? Your forcing gay people to marry a women if they want to get married! again I don't understand your argument!

 

[TimothysAlaska]

T

The only people that marriage imposes upon are those wed by it.

and yet we have already seen threats made against bakers and florists for refusing to provide services for same sex marriages......

they own a business and do business with those people but only if it's not for a wedding! So businesses get to pick and choose when to sell to someone is appropriate? When they do business with that person all the time? Look if they never said it was for a gay wedding they would have sold their wares to the people no problem. And from what I read it was because the government stepped in and not the individuals involved so your argument holds no water.

 

[TimothysAlaska]

If you are Christian then you should believe in redemption/ repentance, instead of forcing your will on people by legislation, how about be a good Christian and pray for their souls instead of impeding on their free will, which free will is a Christian tenant.

Isn't it odd that you guys don't mind in the least "forcing your will" on Christians, but, oh golly gee, don't you Christians try and "force your will" on us........

I certainly believe in redemption/repentance and free will. If you understood the Christian Faith, you would know that Salvation is a personal relationship between God and man.
The Government deciding to legalize same sex marriage is not about a personal relationship, it is about defining the Institution of Marriage of which God is the Creator.
Government ONLY became involved in Marriage when it realized that there was a profit to be made.

Christians have the same right to campaign for their Faith/beliefs as do unbelievers. Marriage has not one thing to do with Salvation by the way......so that part of your argument is worthless.

• 
• 
• 

Report

Again you would be correct if America had only one religion....from your statement we should not recognize Buddhists as being married, Hindus as being married because it is not your god. Your marriage is between you your spouse aand whatever god or not god you believe. Why can't you understand that your religion is not the only one and that marriage is for everybody. Or are you guys saying that only Christians are married. I don't understand what your saying. Your religion says it is between a man and a woman....ok so you want the government to say what your religion says, An atheist can't get married now according to the state from your argument?

It does not matter why the government got involved with marriage. It is a fact they are involved it it. Christians do not own the patent on marriage. Marriage is what you and your spouse make it. As a Christian why do you guys divorce? That is just as sinful as gay marriage according to the Old Testament. Or holding idols it's against the Ten Commandments crucifixes I never saw the disclaimer in the bible that says you can have an idol only if it is god. Or graven images I am sure you have a picture of Jesus in your bible. Let's talk about all the things that you as a Christian fail and let's legislate that!

 

[TimothysAlaska]

“It is possible to have deep and passionately-held convictions without seeking to have those convictions imposed by the State on fellow citizens who do not share them”.

Fr Iggy O Donovan calls for Yes vote in marriage referendum

if the vote is 'Yes' won't the State impose same sex marriage upon all of society even though some citizens do not share that belief?.......

You would be correct if the state forced you into a gay marriage. But they are not! You can marry a woman if you want. It's not forcing you to do it nor is it forcing you to agree with it. Only that it is allowed

 

[tipofthespear]

It does not matter why the government got involved with marriage. It is a fact they are involved it it. Christians do not own the patent on marriage. Marriage is what you and your spouse make it. As a Christian why do you guys divorce? That is just as sinful as gay marriage according to the Old Testament. Or holding idols it's against the Ten Commandments crucifixes I never saw the disclaimer in the bible that says you can have an idol only if it is god. Or graven images I am sure you have a picture of Jesus in your bible. Let's talk about all the things that you as a Christian fail and let's legislate that!

Care to reveal the origin of the marriage celebration? That might help you. If you do not understand Scripture, pleas don't try and support your assertions with Scripture. The rest of your comments reveal your lack of understanding of Scripture and the Christian Faith.

 

[TimothysAlaska]

It does not matter why the government got involved with marriage. It is a fact they are involved it it. Christians do not own the patent on marriage. Marriage is what you and your spouse make it. As a Christian why do you guys divorce? That is just as sinful as gay marriage according to the Old Testament. Or holding idols it's against the Ten Commandments crucifixes I never saw the disclaimer in the bible that says you can have an idol only if it is god. Or graven images I am sure you have a picture of Jesus in your bible. Let's talk about all the things that you as a Christian fail and let's legislate that!

Care to reveal the origin of the marriage celebration? That might help you. If you do not understand Scripture, pleas don't try and support your assertions with Scripture. The rest of your comments reveal your lack of understanding of Scripture and the Christian Faith.

Ok so nobody got married before Christianity. You need to read the history books because Christianity did not start till after Jesus sacrifice on the cross. I understand Christianity perfectly well. I also understand that churches today are hypocrites that pick and chose what to follow and so not repent the things they do not follow! But be judgmental against everybody but yourselves.... You realize that judgement is reserved for god but again you won't repent that either.... And to think you actually believe that Christians own the patent on marriage. In your marriage maybe but I guess the billions of pagans that lived and died were never married either!!

I have to ask what form of Christianity do you worship? Because you seriously need to take a history lesson

 

[PostmodernProph]

T

The only people that marriage imposes upon are those wed by it.

and yet we have already seen threats made against bakers and florists for refusing to provide services for same sex marriages......

they own a business and do business with those people but only if it's not for a wedding! So businesses get to pick and choose when to sell to someone is appropriate? When they do business with that person all the time? Look if they never said it was for a gay wedding they would have sold their wares to the people no problem. And from what I read it was because the government stepped in and not the individuals involved so your argument holds no water.

obviously, if they can no longer decide for themselves if it is appropriate then something has been imposed upon them....you may not like the answer but it doesn't change it.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

“It is possible to have deep and passionately-held convictions without seeking to have those convictions imposed by the State on fellow citizens who do not share them”.

Fr Iggy O Donovan calls for Yes vote in marriage referendum

if the vote is 'Yes' won't the State impose same sex marriage upon all of society even though some citizens do not share that belief?.......

You would be correct if the state forced you into a gay marriage. But they are not! You can marry a woman if you want. It's not forcing you to do it nor is it forcing you to agree with it. Only that it is allowed

you mean only if the state now gets to tell you if it is appropriate instead of being allowed to make that decision for yourself.....

 

[TimothysAlaska]

Huh

“It is possible to have deep and passionately-held convictions without seeking to have those convictions imposed by the State on fellow citizens who do not share them”.

Fr Iggy O Donovan calls for Yes vote in marriage referendum

if the vote is 'Yes' won't the State impose same sex marriage upon all of society even though some citizens do not share that belief?.......

You would be correct if the state forced you into a gay marriage. But they are not! You can marry a woman if you want. It's not forcing you to do it nor is it forcing you to agree with it. Only that it is allowed

you mean only if the state now gets to tell you if it is appropriate instead of being allowed to make that decision for yourself.....

huh? Yes the state can tell you what is appropriate...ie like not being intoxicated in public! but that is different then letting someone get married, marriage is a contract it's neither appropriate or non appropriate, you make the decisions in your own life.