Irgun and Haganah were created to protect the local Jewish communities from being attacked like they have been several times. And where did you read that they milled Arabs and Brits to prevent a state being created by the so called 'Palestinians'??? It was the Jews who accepted the partition plan .
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Irgun and Haganah were created to protect the local Jewish communities from being attacked like they have been several times. And where did you read that they milled Arabs and Brits to prevent a state being created by the so called 'Palestinians'??? It was the Jews who accepted the partition plan .
Beelzebub
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Palestine was in fact in a pre-state stage.
The British mandate should have been extended, as they had failed to do what was envisaged in bringing Palestine to statehood, with all the necessary institutions.
This was due to both the interruption of WWII and terrorist groups such as Irgun and Haganah, which had murdered Arabs and British to prevent a state being created by the indigenous people.
Good old Ariel Sharon - you remember him , the war criminal - he had a big hand in that. Partly why the Zionists love him as he was one of their terrorists.
Irgun and Haganah were created to protect the local Jewish communities from being attacked like they have been several times. And where did you read that they milled Arabs and Brits to prevent a state being created by the so called 'Palestinians'??? It was the Jews who accepted the partition plan .
Accepting partition was hardly in good faith. They felt that they could get that foothold and expand it. And partition was not the expectation of the Mandate, just an apparent face-saver for the UN when the European invaders proved they were not going to try to get along with the natives.
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Yep. You could be right.
Can you put your finger on what was done wrong?
The purpose of the mandate was to bring Palestine to independence in the best interest of the native people. Instead they pushed the natives aside, like the good colonialists that they were, and pushed the agenda of foreigners. This violated the League of Nation Covenant, international law, and the rights of the native population.
The war they started continues today.
They tried to bring Palestine into independence. But the Palestinians rejected it.
That was their biggest mistake because now, they are trying to negotiate for less than what the partition plan would have given them.
Palestine was in fact in a pre-state stage.
The British mandate should have been extended, as they had failed to do what was envisaged in bringing Palestine to statehood, with all the necessary institutions.
This was due to both the interruption of WWII and terrorist groups such as Irgun and Haganah, which had murdered Arabs and British to prevent a state being created by the indigenous people.
Good old Ariel Sharon - you remember him , the war criminal - he had a big hand in that. Partly why the Zionists love him as he was one of their terrorists.
Irgun and Haganah were created to protect the local Jewish communities from being attacked like they have been several times. And where did you read that they milled Arabs and Brits to prevent a state being created by the so called 'Palestinians'??? It was the Jews who accepted the partition plan .
Accepting partition was hardly in good faith. They felt that they could get that foothold and expand it. And partition was not the expectation of the Mandate, just an apparent face-saver for the UN when the European invaders proved they were not going to try to get along with the natives.
They felt like they could expand it?? How? You're making crap up.
And yes their acceptance was in good faith, considering it was half of what they were offered originally.
Looks like you joined this forum to spew the usual Palestinian propaganda.
RoccoR
Gold Member
et al,
Essentially, our friend "Beelzebub" is correct. While under mandate, the Jewish Agency was never truly made an offer of any portion of the Territory by a competent authority. But then, neither were the Arab Palestinians.
The offer only came in the form of GA/RES/181(II), not to be implemented during the Mandate --- but only after termination.
What I chuckled at was the observation that "Palestine was in fact in a pre-state stage." (Sorry "toastman!") While in some ways, this does accurately describe the condition, the Arab Palestine was pandering a "pre-state" condition for 8 Centuries or more; depending on how deep the perspective runs. Even today, the November 1988 State of Palestine is barely able to function as an autonomously run entity. And it is not because of the Israeli Occupation. As I said, the Japanese and Germans both, were able to reinitialize their states under occupation and have become two of the most powerful and influential nations on the planet.
Most Respectfully,
R
Essentially, our friend "Beelzebub" is correct. While under mandate, the Jewish Agency was never truly made an offer of any portion of the Territory by a competent authority. But then, neither were the Arab Palestinians.
(COMMENT)Toastman:
Zionists were never offered Palestine or Palestine and Trans Jordan as their own exclusive state.
Never.
The offer only came in the form of GA/RES/181(II), not to be implemented during the Mandate --- but only after termination.
What I chuckled at was the observation that "Palestine was in fact in a pre-state stage." (Sorry "toastman!") While in some ways, this does accurately describe the condition, the Arab Palestine was pandering a "pre-state" condition for 8 Centuries or more; depending on how deep the perspective runs. Even today, the November 1988 State of Palestine is barely able to function as an autonomously run entity. And it is not because of the Israeli Occupation. As I said, the Japanese and Germans both, were able to reinitialize their states under occupation and have become two of the most powerful and influential nations on the planet.
Most Respectfully,
R
Beelzebub
VIP Member
- May 6, 2014
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et al,
Essentially, our friend "Beelzebub" is correct. While under mandate, the Jewish Agency was never truly made an offer of any portion of the Territory by a competent authority. But then, neither were the Arab Palestinians.
(COMMENT)Toastman:
Zionists were never offered Palestine or Palestine and Trans Jordan as their own exclusive state.
Never.
The offer only came in the form of GA/RES/181(II), not to be implemented during the Mandate --- but only after termination.
What I chuckled at was the observation that "Palestine was in fact in a pre-state stage." (Sorry "toastman!") While in some ways, this does accurately describe the condition, the Arab Palestine was pandering a "pre-state" condition for 8 Centuries or more; depending on how deep the perspective runs. Even today, the November 1988 State of Palestine is barely able to function as an autonomously run entity. And it is not because of the Israeli Occupation. As I said, the Japanese and Germans both, were able to reinitialize their states under occupation and have become two of the most powerful and influential nations on the planet.
Most Respectfully,
R
I agree.
However, the United Nations Mandate to bring Palestine to statehood after long occupation by the Ottoman Empire was more a pregnancy than a wished for tryst.
As to running Palestine now, as a Post War Germany or Japan: Palestine is more akin to an open prison. So your claim that they have the same opportunity is somewhat disingenuous.
Kondor3
Cafeteria Centrist
Perhaps it is more accurate to say that the Palestinians HAD (past-tense) the same opportunity.
They could have declared Statehood simultaneously with Israel and carved off a slice of Old Palestine for themselves, and made that bid for Statehood 'stick', just as the Jews of Palestine did. But they didn't.
They could have negotiated a permanent division of Old Palestine between Jews and Muslims, as Equals or Near-Equals, with parity, at almost any time between 1948 and 1967. But they didn't.
They could have negotiated a permanent division of Old Palestine between Jews and Muslims, as the Lesser Partner, with a lesser outcome, at anytime between 1967 and the outbreak of Intifada I. But they didn't.
They could have pleaded with the Israelis to give them a second chance at a Lesser Outcome, at various stages along the way, between the outbreak of Intifada I and our present time. But they didn't.
They have missed so many chances and opportunities that they are now a "Standing Joke" and "Classic Model of What NOT to Do" in most political science and discussion and diplomatic circles.
They have repeatedly launched terror attacks outside their boundaries at innocent non-Jewish / non-Israeli targets over the past 40 years and more, and made many unforgiving enemies as a result, who might otherwise have proven more sympathetic.
They are brain dead in the contexts of Diplomacy and Public Relations.
They are a melange of blood lines, including both long-resident and recently-migrated ancestral stock from the surrounding region, and their claims to ownership and sovereignty are highly suspect, ancient and untraceable for the most part, and rendered obsolete by the events of the past 66 years and more, including Israeli victories on the battlefield, and there is no international momentum to overturn those battlefield decisions by coercive military measures from the UN et al, and there never will be.
The world at-large, beyond the domain of Islam, and certainly throughout much of The West, is bone-tired of their intransigence and stupidity and savagery, they've long-since burned through most of whatever goodwill that they once might have claimed, and they've pretty-much played out their hand, with no more trump cards left to play which are likely to do them the slightest good.
Their own neighboring Muslim states (Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, et al) have pretty much washed their hands of them, having repeatedly wasted much blood and treasure on their behalf to no practical and useful end, to the point where some of those Muslim neighbors (Egypt, Jordan) are actually collaborating with the Israelis in connection with blockading and/or monitoring and containing the mad-dog Palestinians.
It's over.
It's been over for 66 years, by many reasonable criteria, and it's certainly been over for 47 years, given that the 1967 Six Day War put the Israelis in a very long-term ascendant and superior position over both the Palestinians and their Muslim neighbor-states.
There is no Arab cavalry coming over the hill to rescue the Palestinians this time.
It's time for the Palestinians to throw in the towel, pack their bags, and leave - for good; writing off old claims as un-enforceable and obsolete, and setting about the task of building new and happy lives elsewhere, in some place or another that actually wants and will accept some of them, and walking away from a hopeless situation.
It's all well-and-good to beat one's breast and to loudly shout 'Never surrender', but it will be quicker and easier and better for the Palestinians, to calm themselves, regain a measure of sanity, and begin negotiations for collective relocation assistance, from the Israelis, the UN, and their Muslim neighbors; which is about the only halfway decent Deal which they can probably and realistically negotiate at this very late stage in the game. In the end, the result will be the same. Best to get something for your trouble and some help relocating, on the way out the door, while the possibility for obtaining such assistance still exists.
They could have declared Statehood simultaneously with Israel and carved off a slice of Old Palestine for themselves, and made that bid for Statehood 'stick', just as the Jews of Palestine did. But they didn't.
They could have negotiated a permanent division of Old Palestine between Jews and Muslims, as Equals or Near-Equals, with parity, at almost any time between 1948 and 1967. But they didn't.
They could have negotiated a permanent division of Old Palestine between Jews and Muslims, as the Lesser Partner, with a lesser outcome, at anytime between 1967 and the outbreak of Intifada I. But they didn't.
They could have pleaded with the Israelis to give them a second chance at a Lesser Outcome, at various stages along the way, between the outbreak of Intifada I and our present time. But they didn't.
They have missed so many chances and opportunities that they are now a "Standing Joke" and "Classic Model of What NOT to Do" in most political science and discussion and diplomatic circles.
They have repeatedly launched terror attacks outside their boundaries at innocent non-Jewish / non-Israeli targets over the past 40 years and more, and made many unforgiving enemies as a result, who might otherwise have proven more sympathetic.
They are brain dead in the contexts of Diplomacy and Public Relations.
They are a melange of blood lines, including both long-resident and recently-migrated ancestral stock from the surrounding region, and their claims to ownership and sovereignty are highly suspect, ancient and untraceable for the most part, and rendered obsolete by the events of the past 66 years and more, including Israeli victories on the battlefield, and there is no international momentum to overturn those battlefield decisions by coercive military measures from the UN et al, and there never will be.
The world at-large, beyond the domain of Islam, and certainly throughout much of The West, is bone-tired of their intransigence and stupidity and savagery, they've long-since burned through most of whatever goodwill that they once might have claimed, and they've pretty-much played out their hand, with no more trump cards left to play which are likely to do them the slightest good.
Their own neighboring Muslim states (Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, et al) have pretty much washed their hands of them, having repeatedly wasted much blood and treasure on their behalf to no practical and useful end, to the point where some of those Muslim neighbors (Egypt, Jordan) are actually collaborating with the Israelis in connection with blockading and/or monitoring and containing the mad-dog Palestinians.
It's over.
It's been over for 66 years, by many reasonable criteria, and it's certainly been over for 47 years, given that the 1967 Six Day War put the Israelis in a very long-term ascendant and superior position over both the Palestinians and their Muslim neighbor-states.
There is no Arab cavalry coming over the hill to rescue the Palestinians this time.
It's time for the Palestinians to throw in the towel, pack their bags, and leave - for good; writing off old claims as un-enforceable and obsolete, and setting about the task of building new and happy lives elsewhere, in some place or another that actually wants and will accept some of them, and walking away from a hopeless situation.
It's all well-and-good to beat one's breast and to loudly shout 'Never surrender', but it will be quicker and easier and better for the Palestinians, to calm themselves, regain a measure of sanity, and begin negotiations for collective relocation assistance, from the Israelis, the UN, and their Muslim neighbors; which is about the only halfway decent Deal which they can probably and realistically negotiate at this very late stage in the game. In the end, the result will be the same. Best to get something for your trouble and some help relocating, on the way out the door, while the possibility for obtaining such assistance still exists.
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Be fair P F Tinmore.
WWII was quite a distraction.
There was a lot of illicit immigration into Palestine with Nazi Germany teaming up with German Zionists to arm them, and force them into the Mandate area, massively in excess of permitted numbers, even in the 1930's.
Add to that American support for Zionism, muchly as an lever to reduce British influence, and the fact that Britain had spend most of its wealth fighting WWI, it was a tough job.
And, Palestine had NOTHING to begin, having been occupied continually by the Ottoman forces, who did nothing to educate or allow autonomous Palestinian institutions.
It was not like in India, where a relatively benign occupation had left the nation with many skilled and visionary leaders.
I am being fair. Britain got the mandate to bring Palestine to independence. They fucked up so bad that they cut and ran leaving the problems they created to the UN.
And the dufus crowd at the UN has done nothing since to correct the problem.
WRONG as history shows the Nazi muslim Hussieni started his blood libels and stirred up a hornets nest. This led to the arab muslims becoming violent and using terrorism to get their way. The British were very nearly bankrupt from WW2 so did not have the funds to put down the arab muslim riots so handed the reigns over to the UN who screwed up by giving the arab muslims even more land. What should have happened is the UN should have kept to the agreements and told the arabs that any action would result in armed intervention and sanctions.
So once again history shows that in is arab muslim violence and terrorism behind the worlds problems.
Yep. You could be right.
Can you put your finger on what was done wrong?
I can the British did not take out Hussieni when they had the chance, instead they tried to reason with him and ended up losing
Beelzebub
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Yep. You could be right.
Can you put your finger on what was done wrong?
I can the British did not take out Hussieni when they had the chance, instead they tried to reason with him and ended up losing
That question wasn't to you Phoney.
But you missed the question which was.
Maybe you can string together something more meaningful than the above ... ?
Yep. You could be right.
Can you put your finger on what was done wrong?
The purpose of the mandate was to bring Palestine to independence in the best interest of the native people. Instead they pushed the natives aside, like the good colonialists that they were, and pushed the agenda of foreigners. This violated the League of Nation Covenant, international law, and the rights of the native population.
The war they started continues today.
WRONG the native arab muslims received 95% of Palestine for their help in beating the Ottoman empire. That was always the deal as was giving the Jews the NATIONAL HOME that all races have as enshrined in the LoN and U.N. charters. Read the remit of the mandate and you see that it clearly states to assist the indigenous, not to force independence on them. You should really read the UN and International books written on the history of the mandate, not the ones produced by ISLAMONAZIS
Interesting premise.
One of the duties of the mandate for Palestine was to assist immigrating Jews in obtaining Palestinian citizenship. These Jews were to become citizens of what? Citizens of nothing as Israeli propaganda would have us to believe?
Something here makes no sense. Perhaps you could clear that up for us.
They were to be part of Eretz-Israel
Where was that term mentioned in the LoN covenant or the Mandate?
It wasn't as it did not have that name then, it was called the NATIONAL HOME FOR THE JEWS . By the way the Palestinian citizenship referred to was under the mandate making in British mandate Palestinian.
Unless you can find a Palestine passport from before 1988 somewhere ?
montelatici
Gold Member
- Feb 5, 2014
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They were to be part of Eretz-Israel
Where was that term mentioned in the LoN covenant or the Mandate?
It wasn't as it did not have that name then, it was called the NATIONAL HOME FOR THE JEWS . By the way the Palestinian citizenship referred to was under the mandate making in British mandate Palestinian.
Unless you can find a Palestine passport from before 1988 somewhere ?
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Gaza/al-Khisas/Picture9516.jpg
Interesting premise.
One of the duties of the mandate for Palestine was to assist immigrating Jews in obtaining Palestinian citizenship. These Jews were to become citizens of what? Citizens of nothing as Israeli propaganda would have us to believe?
Something here makes no sense. Perhaps you could clear that up for us.
They were to be part of Eretz-Israel
Not according to the Mandate. As we all now know, after reading the source document, a Jewish National Home (not an independent state) was to be established within Palestine and the Jews were to become Palestinians as were the existing non-Jewish Palestinians per Article 7.
"The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine."
The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate
You missed out the part that says Palestinian mandate citizenship, and the RESURECTED NATIONAL HOME OF THE JEWS . Both destroy your arguments as they mean the polar opposite of what you have posted.
The British enacted such a law and gave the inhabitants British mandate citizenship. ( note it does not say nationality, but citizenship) And that the Jews were to be given land to RESURECT THEIR NATIONAL HOME ( note not a muslim national home but a Jewish one ) Further to this in agreement with the human rights laws of the time the non Jews were not to be adversely affected and would be given the opportunity to become citizens of the NATIONAL HOME with full rights. Now as then enemies of a country that reside in that country can be either evicted or incarcerated to bring about an end to hostilities.
Where was that term mentioned in the LoN covenant or the Mandate?
It wasn't as it did not have that name then, it was called the NATIONAL HOME FOR THE JEWS . By the way the Palestinian citizenship referred to was under the mandate making in British mandate Palestinian.
Unless you can find a Palestine passport from before 1988 somewhere ?
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Gaza/al-Khisas/Picture9516.jpg
No date so a massive fail. try again
Interesting premise.
One of the duties of the mandate for Palestine was to assist immigrating Jews in obtaining Palestinian citizenship. These Jews were to become citizens of what? Citizens of nothing as Israeli propaganda would have us to believe?
Something here makes no sense. Perhaps you could clear that up for us.
What's with the deflection Tinmore? And why are you unable to accept simple facts??
What fact are you talking about?
That the citizenship mentioned was that of British mandate Palestinian and not as a citizen of the nation of Palestine.
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