Just What is Libertarianism?

[bripat9643]

If Libertarians believe in the concept of "No harm, no foul" I am OK with it

Smoking a joint does not harm anyone.....leave it alone
Prostitution does not harm anyone.....leave it alone
Gays are not harming anyone.....leave them alone

But they go beyond that in a blind fanaticism that the founding fathers somehow knew everything this country would ever need

You know, the founders never supported welfare so we shouldn't do it
You know, the founders never said we should have healthcare, social security or schools....so we don't need them

Opposition to these programs is merely a consistent application of "No harm, no foul". We think mutual support and communal welfare should be voluntary. We can care for our families, friends, neighbors and communities without passing laws that will, ultimately, send people to jail of they don't do as their told.

It's not that we don't need community programs to help the people who fall through the cracks, but they don't need to be run by government. The coercive aspect of government makes it something we should resort to reluctantly.

Sorry

Allowing people to go hungry is an egregeous foul
Feeding and housing the poor should not be voluntary and the government is better suited to do it than local charities

"No harm, no foul" is not the libertarian principle. I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.

You just admitted you are opposed to freedom, so what is the debate about?

 

[rightwinger]

Your job is part of the greater good. You provide a good or service which benefits society as a whole and are paid for it

You drive to work and use roads that society has provided and follow traffic laws that make multiple users driving the roads safer. You get home and are protected by police and fire provided by society. You use sewers and water systems that have been provided by society. You use electricity and energy from networks developed by society

No not all jobs benefit society as a whole.

Most are geared towards individual consumption

If society is willing to pay for it, then it benefits
Your job does not exist in a vacuum, someone must need it

Don't confuse wants and needs.

No one needs an i phone
No one needs an x box
No one needs a liter if bourbon.

If society wants it...they need it

May not lead to survival of the society but it is something that leads to more enjoyment as part of a society

Nobody could develop an x-box on their own. But the fact that your society has developed one makes your life in that society more enjoyable. One of the reasons we formed societies

Lets say you belong to a small tribe. You may not hunt or fish but you play music. The tribe does not need your music, but they are willing to share their food with you because they enjoy your music

That's called the division of labor. Government isn't required for that to function.

Society didn't develop the X-box. A specific set of people working for a specific corporation developed it.

Also, "want" and "need" are two separate things.

Who said anything about Government?

Government is formed by a society and does the functions that the society requests
At a bare minimum, a society provides what we need to survive

Advanced societies provide what the people want

 

[rightwinger]

If Libertarians believe in the concept of "No harm, no foul" I am OK with it

Smoking a joint does not harm anyone.....leave it alone
Prostitution does not harm anyone.....leave it alone
Gays are not harming anyone.....leave them alone

But they go beyond that in a blind fanaticism that the founding fathers somehow knew everything this country would ever need

You know, the founders never supported welfare so we shouldn't do it
You know, the founders never said we should have healthcare, social security or schools....so we don't need them

Opposition to these programs is merely a consistent application of "No harm, no foul". We think mutual support and communal welfare should be voluntary. We can care for our families, friends, neighbors and communities without passing laws that will, ultimately, send people to jail of they don't do as their told.

It's not that we don't need community programs to help the people who fall through the cracks, but they don't need to be run by government. The coercive aspect of government makes it something we should resort to reluctantly.

Sorry

Allowing people to go hungry is an egregeous foul
Feeding and housing the poor should not be voluntary and the government is better suited to do it than local charities

"No harm, no foul" is not the libertarian principle. I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.

You just admitted you are opposed to freedom, so what is the debate about?

Simply means that if nobody is being harmed by an action, it should be permitted

But what do you know about Libertarianism....you are an anarchist

 

[kaz]

Libertarianism: I got mine, fuck the rest of you

Then liberals take it with guns and say you got yours, fuck the rest of us

 

[bripat9643]

No not all jobs benefit society as a whole.

Most are geared towards individual consumption

If society is willing to pay for it, then it benefits
Your job does not exist in a vacuum, someone must need it

Don't confuse wants and needs.

No one needs an i phone
No one needs an x box
No one needs a liter if bourbon.

If society wants it...they need it

May not lead to survival of the society but it is something that leads to more enjoyment as part of a society

Nobody could develop an x-box on their own. But the fact that your society has developed one makes your life in that society more enjoyable. One of the reasons we formed societies

Lets say you belong to a small tribe. You may not hunt or fish but you play music. The tribe does not need your music, but they are willing to share their food with you because they enjoy your music

That's called the division of labor. Government isn't required for that to function.

Society didn't develop the X-box. A specific set of people working for a specific corporation developed it.

Also, "want" and "need" are two separate things.

Who said anything about Government?

Government is formed by a society and does the functions that the society requests
At a bare minimum, a society provides what we need to survive

Advanced societies provide what the people want

Government and society are two separate things. You keep saying "society does this," and "society needs that," when what you really mean is government does it. Government performs functions that are beneficial for government. Any claims to the contrary are propaganda.

Society doesn't provide squat. It's an abstract concept. And the idea that welfare makes a society "advanced" is too absurd for words to describe.

 

[kaz]

Just What is Libertarianism?

What is a small government libertarian US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Note libertarians generally agreed with me

 

[kaz]

Congress has a 15% approval rating.

And yet we re-elect 98 percent of them every two years.

Go figure.

For some reason, too many of you can see other people's liars for what they are, then you believe your own liar

 

[bripat9643]

If Libertarians believe in the concept of "No harm, no foul" I am OK with it

Smoking a joint does not harm anyone.....leave it alone
Prostitution does not harm anyone.....leave it alone
Gays are not harming anyone.....leave them alone

But they go beyond that in a blind fanaticism that the founding fathers somehow knew everything this country would ever need

You know, the founders never supported welfare so we shouldn't do it
You know, the founders never said we should have healthcare, social security or schools....so we don't need them

Opposition to these programs is merely a consistent application of "No harm, no foul". We think mutual support and communal welfare should be voluntary. We can care for our families, friends, neighbors and communities without passing laws that will, ultimately, send people to jail of they don't do as their told.

It's not that we don't need community programs to help the people who fall through the cracks, but they don't need to be run by government. The coercive aspect of government makes it something we should resort to reluctantly.

Sorry

Allowing people to go hungry is an egregeous foul
Feeding and housing the poor should not be voluntary and the government is better suited to do it than local charities

"No harm, no foul" is not the libertarian principle. I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.

You just admitted you are opposed to freedom, so what is the debate about?

Simply means that if nobody is being harmed by an action, it should be permitted

But what do you know about Libertarianism....you are an anarchist

So, if I stop buying groceries at Publix, then I have harmed Publix and all the people who work there. Should that be permitted? On the other hand, if I decline to give money to the slut who got pregnant because she couldn't keep her legs together or bother to use birth control, I haven't harmed her, right?

Anarcho-capitalism is a subset of libertarianism, for your information, turd.

 

[bripat9643]

Libertarianism: I got mine, fuck the rest of you

Then liberals take it with guns and say you got yours, fuck the rest of us

"I got mine. fuck the rest of you" is just another way of saying "I wanna take what you earned."

 

[rightwinger]

If society is willing to pay for it, then it benefits
Your job does not exist in a vacuum, someone must need it

Don't confuse wants and needs.

No one needs an i phone
No one needs an x box
No one needs a liter if bourbon.

If society wants it...they need it

May not lead to survival of the society but it is something that leads to more enjoyment as part of a society

Nobody could develop an x-box on their own. But the fact that your society has developed one makes your life in that society more enjoyable. One of the reasons we formed societies

Lets say you belong to a small tribe. You may not hunt or fish but you play music. The tribe does not need your music, but they are willing to share their food with you because they enjoy your music

That's called the division of labor. Government isn't required for that to function.

Society didn't develop the X-box. A specific set of people working for a specific corporation developed it.

Also, "want" and "need" are two separate things.

Who said anything about Government?

Government is formed by a society and does the functions that the society requests
At a bare minimum, a society provides what we need to survive

Advanced societies provide what the people want

Government and society are two separate things. You keep saying "society does this," and "society needs that," when what you really mean is government does it. Government performs functions that are beneficial for government. Any claims to the contrary are propaganda.

Society doesn't provide squat. It's an abstract concept. And the idea that welfare makes a society "advanced" is too absurd for words to describe.

Coming from an anarchist.....I see that is what you believe

Read the Constitution. It starts by declaring that "We the People" are forming a government and how that government will be constituted

Government is formed by a society. It allows that society to function. You can't have one without the other

 

[Skull Pilot]

You work and interact through out the day as part of your job not for any greater good.

People can't wait to get home and get away from the people they have to work with all day long. Shit most people don't even know their neighbor's names anymore

Your job is part of the greater good. You provide a good or service which benefits society as a whole and are paid for it

You drive to work and use roads that society has provided and follow traffic laws that make multiple users driving the roads safer. You get home and are protected by police and fire provided by society. You use sewers and water systems that have been provided by society. You use electricity and energy from networks developed by society

No not all jobs benefit society as a whole.

Most are geared towards individual consumption

If society is willing to pay for it, then it benefits
Your job does not exist in a vacuum, someone must need it

Don't confuse wants and needs.

No one needs an i phone
No one needs an x box
No one needs a liter if bourbon.

If society wants it...they need it

May not lead to survival of the society but it is something that leads to more enjoyment as part of a society

Nobody could develop an x-box on their own. But the fact that your society has developed one makes your life in that society more enjoyable. One of the reasons we formed societies

Lets say you belong to a small tribe. You may not hunt or fish but you play music. The tribe does not need your music, but they are willing to share their food with you because they enjoy your music

I won't waste my money on a x box but that's besides the point.

A want is not a need it never has been and never will be.

Needs can be generalized across a group of people wants cannot.

 

[bripat9643]

Don't confuse wants and needs.

No one needs an i phone
No one needs an x box
No one needs a liter if bourbon.

If society wants it...they need it

May not lead to survival of the society but it is something that leads to more enjoyment as part of a society

Nobody could develop an x-box on their own. But the fact that your society has developed one makes your life in that society more enjoyable. One of the reasons we formed societies

Lets say you belong to a small tribe. You may not hunt or fish but you play music. The tribe does not need your music, but they are willing to share their food with you because they enjoy your music

That's called the division of labor. Government isn't required for that to function.

Society didn't develop the X-box. A specific set of people working for a specific corporation developed it.

Also, "want" and "need" are two separate things.

Who said anything about Government?

Government is formed by a society and does the functions that the society requests
At a bare minimum, a society provides what we need to survive

Advanced societies provide what the people want

Government and society are two separate things. You keep saying "society does this," and "society needs that," when what you really mean is government does it. Government performs functions that are beneficial for government. Any claims to the contrary are propaganda.

Society doesn't provide squat. It's an abstract concept. And the idea that welfare makes a society "advanced" is too absurd for words to describe.

Coming from an anarchist.....I see that is what you believe

Read the Constitution. It starts by declaring that "We the People" are forming a government and how that government will be constituted

Government is formed by a society. It allows that society to function. You can't have one without the other

If "we the people" created government, then "we the people" are separate from government. The two things are not synonymous.

Society does not need government to function. Society existed for 10,000 years before the first government ever formed. The later is a parasite that feeds on and afflicts the former.

 

[g5000]

Some of those services could be provided by the private sector. Electricity, for example. Water and sewer, too.

If the governament at any level can do it better and cheaper, then the government should do it

No. No, no, no, no, no.

 

[rightwinger]

Your job is part of the greater good. You provide a good or service which benefits society as a whole and are paid for it

You drive to work and use roads that society has provided and follow traffic laws that make multiple users driving the roads safer. You get home and are protected by police and fire provided by society. You use sewers and water systems that have been provided by society. You use electricity and energy from networks developed by society

No not all jobs benefit society as a whole.

Most are geared towards individual consumption

If society is willing to pay for it, then it benefits
Your job does not exist in a vacuum, someone must need it

Don't confuse wants and needs.

No one needs an i phone
No one needs an x box
No one needs a liter if bourbon.

If society wants it...they need it

May not lead to survival of the society but it is something that leads to more enjoyment as part of a society

Nobody could develop an x-box on their own. But the fact that your society has developed one makes your life in that society more enjoyable. One of the reasons we formed societies

Lets say you belong to a small tribe. You may not hunt or fish but you play music. The tribe does not need your music, but they are willing to share their food with you because they enjoy your music

I won't waste my money on a x box but that's besides the point.

A want is not a need it never has been and never will be.

Needs can be generalized across a group of people wants cannot.

A society can pay for both wants and needs

They do not need parks and museums but decide that they want them anyway and everyone pays for them

 

[rightwinger]

If society wants it...they need it

May not lead to survival of the society but it is something that leads to more enjoyment as part of a society

Nobody could develop an x-box on their own. But the fact that your society has developed one makes your life in that society more enjoyable. One of the reasons we formed societies

Lets say you belong to a small tribe. You may not hunt or fish but you play music. The tribe does not need your music, but they are willing to share their food with you because they enjoy your music

That's called the division of labor. Government isn't required for that to function.

Society didn't develop the X-box. A specific set of people working for a specific corporation developed it.

Also, "want" and "need" are two separate things.

Who said anything about Government?

Government is formed by a society and does the functions that the society requests
At a bare minimum, a society provides what we need to survive

Advanced societies provide what the people want

Government and society are two separate things. You keep saying "society does this," and "society needs that," when what you really mean is government does it. Government performs functions that are beneficial for government. Any claims to the contrary are propaganda.

Society doesn't provide squat. It's an abstract concept. And the idea that welfare makes a society "advanced" is too absurd for words to describe.

Coming from an anarchist.....I see that is what you believe

Read the Constitution. It starts by declaring that "We the People" are forming a government and how that government will be constituted

Government is formed by a society. It allows that society to function. You can't have one without the other

If "we the people" created government, then "we the people" are separate from government. The two things are not synonymous.

Society does not need government to function. Society existed for 10,000 years before the first government ever formed. The later is a parasite that feeds on and afflicts the former.

Read the Constitution

We the People created the Government it IS us
No society at any level has ever operated without a government. The simplest tribe had a government

But why do I argue such things with an anarchist?

 

[dblack]

Libertarianism is just Republicanism by people who don't wanna be associated with batshit crazy Christian Reich types.

I suppose some people self-apply the label with intent. But the ideology actually is more liberal than conservative.

 

[dblack]

The myth upon which Libertarianism is based is the same myth as Communism. That is that human beings will step up and do the right thing if only given the chance. It isn't true.

That's not really it. It's more along the lines of "two wrongs don't make a right". We want a government that represents society's morals - that doesn't act immorally in the name of the "good" of society. To put it another way, we don't want government to do anything we wouldn't feel justified in doing personally if it came to that.

 

[PratchettFan]

The myth upon which Libertarianism is based is the same myth as Communism. That is that human beings will step up and do the right thing if only given the chance. It isn't true.

That's not really it. It's more along the lines of "two wrongs don't make a right". We want a government that represents society's morals - that doesn't act immorally in the name of the "good" of society. To put it another way, we don't want government to do anything we wouldn't feel justified in doing personally if it came to that.

The good of society is the primary goal of the Constitution. Morality is entirely subjective and should not even be a factor. Doing unto others is a wonderful sentiment, but I have seen so many things people are willing to do to others that I don't trust the concept much.

What holds us together is the law. Written down for all to see, interpreted and enforced in the light.

 

[bripat9643]

That's called the division of labor. Government isn't required for that to function.

Society didn't develop the X-box. A specific set of people working for a specific corporation developed it.

Also, "want" and "need" are two separate things.

Who said anything about Government?

Government is formed by a society and does the functions that the society requests
At a bare minimum, a society provides what we need to survive

Advanced societies provide what the people want

Government and society are two separate things. You keep saying "society does this," and "society needs that," when what you really mean is government does it. Government performs functions that are beneficial for government. Any claims to the contrary are propaganda.

Society doesn't provide squat. It's an abstract concept. And the idea that welfare makes a society "advanced" is too absurd for words to describe.

Coming from an anarchist.....I see that is what you believe

Read the Constitution. It starts by declaring that "We the People" are forming a government and how that government will be constituted

Government is formed by a society. It allows that society to function. You can't have one without the other

If "we the people" created government, then "we the people" are separate from government. The two things are not synonymous.

Society does not need government to function. Society existed for 10,000 years before the first government ever formed. The later is a parasite that feeds on and afflicts the former.

Read the Constitution

We the People created the Government it IS us
No society at any level has ever operated without a government. The simplest tribe had a government

But why do I argue such things with an anarchist?

If the government is us, then how did we create it? How do you create yourself?

The fact is that society existed for 10,000 years before any government ever existed. Government is the monopoly on the use of force. Prior to government societies may have made communal decisions of a sort, but there was no machinery of compulsion. It was all entirely voluntary.

“The state — or, to make matters more concrete, the government — consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can’t get, and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time it is made good by looting ‘A’ to satisfy ‘B’. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advanced auction on stolen goods.”

― H.L. Mencken​

 

[M14 Shooter]

its a theory that college Repubs are exposed to in college, sort of like hazing, that MOST discard after becoming adults.

Yes... because maximizing autonomy and freedom of choice, emphasizing political freedom, voluntary association and the primacy of individual judgement is a silly, worthless proposition.
:roll: