Justifiable use of deadly force or not?

[kaz]

It only does for responsible gun owners, not for you. The guy set up a loop where he was armed and the aggressor and was going to kill anyone who fought back. Then he kept repeating it until he got what he wanted. That's murder one

You don't really know that

You've obviously never taken a gun safety course

I have. How do you know he wanted to murder ?

The answer to that is in my quote

 

[beagle9]

So someone threatening your family is not initiating violence, got it

Do they have means immediately available to commit great bodily harm or death while threatening ?

He did.

The gun was not brandished until after the attack by the deceased ?

Huh ? You spoke of means as in did he (Draca) have the means to kill while threatening the girlfriend or wife right ?? I said he did have the means.

 

[kaz]

Gun safety starts with avoiding dangerous situations where possible. You don't create a dangerous situation where there could be a shooting. If you're screaming at a woman and her boyfriend is coming out, that right there is setting up a dangerous situation. I mean duh. How do you not get that?

I'm disappointed in all of you who apparently don't view being armed in public as a responsiblity. Particularly 2aguy who is a longtime ally in arguing 2nd amendment rights. What about try NOT to use your gun eludes you?

Armed, or not one is obligated to act responsibly in public. It’s a good idea to do the same in private as well. As to what constitutes him screaming at her... That’s subjective, and we have no idea if she was “screaming” at him in kind. Nor who “screamed” first.
As for doing this while her boyfriend was coming out of the store... It’s unlikely that the victim knew he was being approached by her boyfriend. Otherwise he would likely have made some move to defend himself against an approaching threat. As for the assailaints moral high ground... Muh dicking for your girlfriend gets no traction. He could have just as easily displayed his virtue by telling the driver not to park in the handicapped spot.
And for those bleeding hearts who assume the assailants location indicated the assault was over... You‘re merely speculating. The assault is only over when the assailant decides its over; or when he’s rendered incapable of furthering the assault. The victim made the choice in this case, by opting for choice two.

Yes, and by repeatedly being aggressive and armed, death was the eventual outcome, which is why it was murder. That isn't how you act when you're armed

Being armed has nothing to do with how you should act.

It only does for responsible gun owners, not for you. The guy set up a loop where he was armed and the aggressor and was going to kill anyone who fought back. Then he kept repeating it until he got what he wanted. That's murder one

One should conduct themselves the same whether armed or not. If having a weapon on your person changes your demeanor... Then you shouldn’t be carrying a weapon.

You've obviously never taken a gun safety course. I hope that means you don't have any guns

 

[Vastator]

You are wrong bud, because a push doesn't warrant being killed after the pusher disengaged immediately afterwards and stepped back.

Being knocked down onto the pavement can and will cause death death or great bodily harm or injury. You can parade many credible medical professionals to testify.

Stepping back from an attack on someone doesn't mean the attack is over.

Can cause, but didn't cause in the incident. Big important part of this case. He should have held his ground until the law arrived, and not defended it with lethal force once realized the weapon had stopped the attack.

Nothing was left but for the police to arrive, but he took the shot out of his rage.

You can't shoot to defend yourself if you are unconscious, or dead. So that guts that argument that you thought you were making.
And as for what the victim was feeling psycologically when he defended himself... Your claim is pure speculation, and nothing more.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Can cause, but didn't cause in the incident. Big important part of this case. He should have held his ground until the law arrived, and not defended it with lethal force once realized the weapon had stopped the attack.

Florida law requires reasonable fear of injury or death. You don't have to wait until your injured or dead to defend yourself.

 

[Circe]

You can't just kill someone for simple assault.

Are you kidding? I could. In a New York minute. Not sure I could after being shoved lying down on the pavement: I'd probably have broken bones. But if I still could, after being shoved off my feet, I would --- and nobody would convict me or even charge me! The issues are different if it's a woman being attacked.

But of course I wouldn't be screaming at someone for standing their car for a few minutes in a handicapped space --- one thing that is obvious is that Crazyman was a leftist. Normal people mind their own business.

 

[beagle9]

Nope. Not justifiable. The man that pushed him down didn't have a weapon. He wasn't even continuing to assault him. For stand your ground you have to feel not just a threat, but a threat for your life. Being pushed to the ground is in no way a threat on your life.

Head trauma is nothing to be taken lightly

A simple bump on the head can kill you – White Coat Underground

Has no bearing on the case now.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Did you seriously just ask that? First of all, a full size grown man screaming at a woman can do great bodily harm to a woman, yes.

How is she harmed by words - her hearing ?

 

[kaz]

Why are people parking in a handicap spot?

The store worker said the shooter was frequently harassing people.

First: that woman was NOT "parked" in a handicapped spot. She was STANDING. There's a difference, and no one gets arrested or a ticket for standing (meaning a qualified driver is in the standing car and can move it if an authority demands). That's why, presumably, she was in the car while boyfriend picked something up. Irrelevant anyway: it's not an offense anyone gets arrested for, and I know because people do it all the time where I live. It's hard to blame them, too ----------- eight empty places empty all the time right by the door? Darn.

Second: that guy was looking to shoot someone. He wanted to kill, kill, blood in his teeth. He was one angry guy.

Were these white guys or black guys or Cuban or something? Anyone know? Hard to tell from the video.

Actually the video is quite clear. The murderer was white and the victim was black

 

[Vastator]

Armed, or not one is obligated to act responsibly in public. It’s a good idea to do the same in private as well. As to what constitutes him screaming at her... That’s subjective, and we have no idea if she was “screaming” at him in kind. Nor who “screamed” first.
As for doing this while her boyfriend was coming out of the store... It’s unlikely that the victim knew he was being approached by her boyfriend. Otherwise he would likely have made some move to defend himself against an approaching threat. As for the assailaints moral high ground... Muh dicking for your girlfriend gets no traction. He could have just as easily displayed his virtue by telling the driver not to park in the handicapped spot.
And for those bleeding hearts who assume the assailants location indicated the assault was over... You‘re merely speculating. The assault is only over when the assailant decides its over; or when he’s rendered incapable of furthering the assault. The victim made the choice in this case, by opting for choice two.

Yes, and by repeatedly being aggressive and armed, death was the eventual outcome, which is why it was murder. That isn't how you act when you're armed

Being armed has nothing to do with how you should act.

It only does for responsible gun owners, not for you. The guy set up a loop where he was armed and the aggressor and was going to kill anyone who fought back. Then he kept repeating it until he got what he wanted. That's murder one

One should conduct themselves the same whether armed or not. If having a weapon on your person changes your demeanor... Then you shouldn’t be carrying a weapon.

You've obviously never taken a gun safety course. I hope that means you don't have any guns

In keeping with a common thing amongst many on this thread, your post is pure speculation. Your "hopes" are of equally worthless value, as they pertain to this incident.

 

[The Professor]

okay let me explain the difference.....before you had to retreat as much as you could and then defend yourself in court....
now there is no mandate to retreat...if you feel your life is in danger...you may shoot and its up to the prosecutor to make the case that you had no right to stand your ground....now please tell me what we dont understand?

What you don't understand is, there is absolutely, positively, NO imminent danger of death to justify deadly force in this situation. NONE. Read the law.

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

After the man pushed him down, he did not continue to attack him. He didn't kick him. He didn't punch him. He didn't pull a weapon. In fact he did the opposite of presenting imminent danger. He BACKED UP. He put his arms down.

The guy on the ground drew his weapon, looked at the guy standing away from him with his hands down at his sides, and shot him. The sheriff's opinion doesn't matter. Black Sand failed to post the entire quote from the sheriff where he says, "It's not up to me." He is turning the evidence over to the prosecutor who will decide whether to charge or not.

Great post.

I would be shocked if the man were not charged. Like you, I know the law and having watched the video it is clear that the use of deadly force was not allowed under Florida law.

I will have much more to say later.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Nope. Not justifiable. The man that pushed him down didn't have a weapon. He wasn't even continuing to assault him. For stand your ground you have to feel not just a threat, but a threat for your life. Being pushed to the ground is in no way a threat on your life.

Head trauma is nothing to be taken lightly

A simple bump on the head can kill you – White Coat Underground

Has no bearing on the case now.

Sure it does. If it goes to hearing. Defense will produce incidents and professional testimony of death due to head injuries from being pushed or falling onto hard surfaces. That reasonable fear is justification for lethal force under Florida law

 

[Circe]

[ The guy set up a loop where he was armed and the aggressor and was going to kill anyone who fought back. Then he kept repeating it until he got what he wanted. That's murder one

Yeah...………….not your last point, that it's Murder One: it isn't because he didn't specifically plan that specific murder. The most it is, is manslaughter, IMO.

But I think you make a good point that needed making: this guy WAS a loaded gun. He wanted very badly to kill someone, and yeah, he just kept on and on till he got what he wanted.

These types are probably best avoided...…...

 

[Vastator]

Why are people parking in a handicap spot?

The store worker said the shooter was frequently harassing people.

First: that woman was NOT "parked" in a handicapped spot. She was STANDING. There's a difference, and no one gets arrested or a ticket for standing (meaning a qualified driver is in the standing car and can move it if an authority demands). That's why, presumably, she was in the car while boyfriend picked something up. Irrelevant anyway: it's not an offense anyone gets arrested for, and I know because people do it all the time where I live. It's hard to blame them, too ----------- eight empty places empty all the time right by the door? Darn.

Second: that guy was looking to shoot someone. He wanted to kill, kill, blood in his teeth. He was one angry guy.

Were these white guys or black guys or Cuban or something? Anyone know? Hard to tell from the video.

Actually the video is quite clear. The murderer was white and the victim was black

There was no "murder" shown on the video. Unless you meant to post this in another thread. Feel free to post a link for clarification of your post if you wish.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

I wouldnt have said anything either.
But words dont give you the right to attack someone.

When you're screaming at a woman in the parking lot waiving your hands, that isn't just words. So seriously, if that happened to your wife, you'd say that? They're just words? Or would you have been very concerned for your wife's safety?

And regardless, when someone shoves you and backs away, that doesn't give you the right to shoot them.

Again, where I'm from, if I'd been armed and screaming at the woman, my community would stop supporting what I did right there. They'd have said I had already violated gun safety standards and created a hostile situation, which you don't do when armed. Then I get shoved by her boyfriend and I gank him? No way, it's not right.

At least not where I was raised

Technically, on the video, the guy advances and only retreats, slightly when the gun is pointed at him..... but between the backing up and shooting there isn't time, and he got shot..... Again, the guy violently attacked the victim....

Bullshit. I’d bet you a million bucks he’s going to prison. I’ll bet a jury will agree too

Past history doesn't matter when you have the video of the attacker initiating the violent attack..... He may have been shouting at the woman, he didn't initiate the violence....

So someone threatening your family is not initiating violence, got it

You dont know what was said between the two.

 

[Vastator]

[ The guy set up a loop where he was armed and the aggressor and was going to kill anyone who fought back. Then he kept repeating it until he got what he wanted. That's murder one

Yeah...………….not your last point, that it's Murder One: it isn't because he didn't specifically plan that specific murder. The most it is, is manslaughter, IMO.

But I think you make a good point that needed making: this guy WAS a loaded gun. He wanted very badly to kill someone, and yeah, he just kept on and on till he got what he wanted.

These types are probably best avoided...…...

You have no way of knowing what a complete stranger wants. You should quit believing you do. That's how mistakes are made.

 

[OODA_Loop]

It only does for responsible gun owners, not for you. The guy set up a loop where he was armed and the aggressor and was going to kill anyone who fought back. Then he kept repeating it until he got what he wanted. That's murder one

You don't really know that

You've obviously never taken a gun safety course

I have. How do you know he wanted to murder ?

The answer to that is in my quote

Come on you dont know that. You think that.

 

[kaz]

So someone threatening your family is not initiating violence, got it

Do they have means immediately available to commit great bodily harm or death while threatening ?

He did.

The gun was not brandished until after the attack by the deceased ?

He's talking about his fists. I mean duh. How did you possibly not get that?

 

[kaz]

Yes, and by repeatedly being aggressive and armed, death was the eventual outcome, which is why it was murder. That isn't how you act when you're armed

Being armed has nothing to do with how you should act.

It only does for responsible gun owners, not for you. The guy set up a loop where he was armed and the aggressor and was going to kill anyone who fought back. Then he kept repeating it until he got what he wanted. That's murder one

One should conduct themselves the same whether armed or not. If having a weapon on your person changes your demeanor... Then you shouldn’t be carrying a weapon.

You've obviously never taken a gun safety course. I hope that means you don't have any guns

In keeping with a common thing amongst many on this thread, your post is pure speculation. Your "hopes" are of equally worthless value, as they pertain to this incident.

I like your lame repeated line that anything you think is fact and no one else can say what they think because that's just opinion. Keep on whining.

This is a discussion. We're discussing the evidence presented. Just like you're doing

 

[OODA_Loop]

He's talking about his fists, moron. I mean duh. How did you possibly not get that?

In that case did he place his hands on anyone ?