Let's Deal with Documented History For A Change

[P F Tinmore]

there is no such thing as a "Palestinian"
there never has been

Let's Deal with Documented History For A Change

Indeed!

 

[Phoenall]

Fair enough everyone?

History Israel

No, it is NOT FAIR at all.

First of all, it is debatable whether anything that was going to make THIS MUCH TROUBLE for Jews, Arabs, and the entire known universe was NECESSITATED by the Holocaust. Many had and continue to have other solutions, including the Orthodox Jews on another thread.

This is TERRIBLE history. The population of British mandate Palestine on the eve of the declaration of state of Israel was NOWHERE NEAR half of the population. I believe it was less than 200,000.

The Arab governments were HARDLY a force against the proposed Jewish state. The Jewish population was very much more numerous, better armed, etc.

Thirdly, the misnomer for Palestinians = "Muslims." If he looks at many of the attacks he mentions, he will find that that particular incident was undertaken by either local Christians or foreigners. He also leaves off the very many attacks of the Jewish population against the Palestinian population. What Lebanese, Syrians, and Egyptians did is irrelevant.

Plus events that happened 80 - 70 years ago do not compromise the rights of today's Palestinians. No one who is alive today was adult during that period, so cannot be blamed.

Yes, Jewish refugees were admitted by the state of Israel during the same period of time Arabs were being expelled. It was a forced exchange and population exchange. That has never been acceptable in world history, and it wasn't acceptable in 1948. Surrounding Arab countries are not Zionist. They don't hold to this strange idea. Why then must they be forced to assimilate millions of unwilling Palestinians when their own populations are unwilling to accept the competition for jobs, the strain on resources and infrastructure, etc., that would be entailed?

100,000,000 human beings have become refugees since 1945 (worldwide) and no other people have been kept in camps anywhere close to this length of time in world history.

850,000 Jews lived in Muslim countries in 1948. Only 20,000 remain there today. None of the 830,000 who fled Muslim lands are in refugee camps; none are demanding the right to return to from whence they came.

If this logic holds with you, then anyone who is stronger AND can argue that they have a greater need can come take over your house tonight, throw you out in the cold, and tell your neighbors they are now responsible for taking care of you. Moreover, by this logic, if Arab countries can develop the force required to defeat Israel, then the Jewish population can be forcible expelled as the Palestinians were, and it becomes the rest of the world's problem. (By the way, I am obviously NOT arguing for this, but just proving the "for instance.")

As we have seen, "Israel's parliamentary democracy" is reserved only for Jews. Arab citizens have citizenship only, but without even minimal civil rights.

Nobody cares about Nasser. If he himself were forced to endure half of the misery he created for others.... But he and his actions don't compromise the rights of the Palestinians either.

By 1957, the State of Israel had progressed faster than any nation on Earth—further embarrassing their Arab neighbors.

I don't think anyone was embarrassed in the least. Arabs were also making strides during this period, but without the huge influx of capital in the form of aid sent to Israel.

The population in the State of Israel had tripled in ten years, with diverse immigrants coming from around the world.

And Israel was apparently embarrassed that more immigrants were striving to come. FEW refugees from post-Nazi Europe, for example, were willing to emigrate to Israel's, despite Israel's pleading. After all, Nazi atrocities and refugee problems were the foundation of Israel's claims for aid and assistance from the rest of the world.[/QUOTE]





1) When the concept of a JEWISH NATIONAL HOME was first broached the world was still embroiled in WW1. The holocaust was not even invented and to blame it for the existence of Israel shows that ANTI SEMITIC JEW HATERS will LIE to gain support


2) Not anymore as International Law has changed and now it is a sever war crime and a crime against humanity to even contemplate such an undertaking. Any group wanting to try it would soon see another Iraq erupt and this time it would be the end of islam.



3) Shows how much you really know as Israel did not receive any aid until Egypt demanded it as part of the peace deal. Before this Israel paid for every single item they received from taxes and donations. They were and still are the biggest technological nation on the Earth. More advances have came out of Israel since 1948 than have came from the rest of the world combined.


4) yet according to your contemparies in islam Israel is inhabited by European invaders who are not even Jews. Just ask then to explain how European colonists came to take the arab land away from them and turn it into an extension of the soviet union.


The biggest problem with ISLAMONAZI PROPAGANDISTS is that none of the sides can even get together and agree on a common theme.

 

[Phoenall]

So true that among the indigenous Palestinians were Jews & not a single Muslim around, let alone Muslim Palestinians until after the 7th centrury AD. Want peace? End the occupation by finding a way for the Surrounding Arab countries to grant their Palestinians a right of return back to their indigenous homelands. LET THERE BE PEACE ALREADY!

Actually, there were no Palestinian Muslims, even the Arabs who call themselves by that name now would be insulted if someone called them by that name. The reason being, the term Palestinian referred exclusively to Jewish people who lived in the region. That is, until Yasser Arafat and his band of terrorist thugs decided to hijack the name one cloudy day in 1967 and attribute it to the mish mash of invading Arabs, from neighboring Arab lands.

Roudy, there are loads of sources referring to them as Muslims. I scratch my head over all this in wonder.

The only thing I can think of is that Egyptians sometimes refer to all Levantines collectively as "Shami". Means Damascene.

Other than that, I am not sure where this is coming from.

Not one muslim existed before their invention in 627 C.E. by Mohamed the mentally deranged camel herder.

 

[Phoenall]

Roudy, a documented source doesn't just need to be in print, it really should have footnotes that cite primary sources.

None of the Islamic ones do, which is why they are held up to ridicule by the rest of Academia

 

[Phoenall]

I got population figures from UNSCOP Try to work with the crazy formatting. At the time Israel was declared there were 608,000 Jews, and 1,237,000 Arabs:

Jews: 608,000

Arabs: 1,237,000

Arab population more than double Jewish population.


Territory

Arab and other population

% Arab and other

Jewish population

% Jewish

Total population

Arab State 725,000 99% 10,000 1% 735,000
Jewish State 407,000 45% 498,000 55% 905,000
International 105,000 51% 100,000 49% 205,000
Total 1,237,000 67% 608,000 33% 1,845,000

Data from the Report of UNSCOP: 3 September 1947: CHAPTER 4: A COMMENTARY ON PARTITION

means absolutely nothing at the end of the day, the mandate allocated the land to the Jews for a national home. The arab muslims had already received 83% of Palestine as theirs, they wanted to renege on the deals they had made and the LoN said no .

 

[irosie91]

I got population figures from UNSCOP Try to work with the crazy formatting. At the time Israel was declared there were 608,000 Jews, and 1,237,000 Arabs:

Jews: 608,000

Arabs: 1,237,000

Arab population more than double Jewish population.


Territory

Arab and other population

% Arab and other

Jewish population

% Jewish

Total population

Arab State 725,000 99% 10,000 1% 735,000
Jewish State 407,000 45% 498,000 55% 905,000
International 105,000 51% 100,000 49% 205,000
Total 1,237,000 67% 608,000 33% 1,845,000

Data from the Report of UNSCOP: 3 September 1947: CHAPTER 4: A COMMENTARY ON PARTITION

means absolutely nothing at the end of the day, the mandate allocated the land to the Jews for a national home. The arab muslims had already received 83% of Palestine as theirs, they wanted to renege on the deals they had made and the LoN said no .

do not blame enmity for her meaningless posts-----she is simply quoting
standard precooked jihado propaganda. The idea is a kind of mindless
and pathetic appeal to that which jihados understand as "democracy"------
since there were more jihados around than jews-----the jihados had the right
to VOTE the jews out of existence. Jihados actually believe that we
western idiots-----will fall for their level of sophistry

 

[MHunterB]

"The population of British mandate Palestine on the eve of the declaration of state of Israel was NOWHERE NEAR half of the population. I believe it was less than 200,000.

The Arab governments were HARDLY a force against the proposed Jewish state. The Jewish population was very much more numerous, better armed, etc. "

It's difficult to say because the first sentence is obviously flawed - but these two sentences seem to contradict one another.......

Oh, and I'd like some documentation from responsible sources that very few Jewish Holocaust survivors desired to go to Israel.....

 

[MHunterB]

"As we have seen, "Israel's parliamentary democracy" is reserved only for Jews. Arab citizens have citizenship only, but without even minimal civil rights."

'We' have seen no such thing. It is ridiculous on the face of it, unless 'Arab' is code for 'non-Jewish': over half of Jewish Israelis are Arabs by culture and former address (descendants of the nearly one million refugees created by the AL laws which deprived them of ALL citizenship rights AND property - which incidentally seems to have been an illegal forced population transfer). How are you suggesting the Israeli government determines 'Arab' status? It must be written into the laws if it's a criterion.

And it also needs to be spelled out what is considered 'minimal civil rights' - and then demonstrated that there actually are Israeli laws limiting those rights based solely on religion or ethnicity. The ONLY one I know of is the law which exempts Muslim (not Druze) or Christian citizens from the Israeli draft - although they are still allowed to volunteer for the IDF. And that doesn't seem like a real curtailment of 'minimal civil rights' to me.

 

[MHunterB]

Neither of the two links posted mentioned that Palestine was created by international treaties and was defined by international borders. Also, Palestinians were the first legitimate citizens of Palestine.

They don't mention it because it didn't happen that way.

 

[MJB12741]

Bravo Tinmore. You got one statement right. "Palestinians were the first legitimate citizens of Palestine." And they were JEWS! Not a single Muslim Palestinian squatter among them.

Neither of the two links posted mentioned that Palestine was created by international treaties and was defined by international borders. Also, Palestinians were the first legitimate citizens of Palestine.

They don't mention it because it didn't happen that way.

 

[amity1844]

do not blame enmity for her meaningless posts-----she is simply quoting
standard precooked jihado propaganda. The idea is a kind of mindless
and pathetic appeal to that which jihados understand as "democracy"------
since there were more jihados around than jews-----the jihados had the right
to VOTE the jews out of existence. Jihados actually believe that we
western idiots-----will fall for their level of sophistry

ummmm ..... "standard precooked jihado propaganda? meaning UNSCOP, I suppose?

You do climb out on some thin limbs.

 

[irosie91]

do not blame enmity for her meaningless posts-----she is simply quoting
standard precooked jihado propaganda. The idea is a kind of mindless
and pathetic appeal to that which jihados understand as "democracy"------
since there were more jihados around than jews-----the jihados had the right
to VOTE the jews out of existence. Jihados actually believe that we
western idiots-----will fall for their level of sophistry

ummmm ..... "standard precooked jihado propaganda? meaning UNSCOP, I suppose?

You do climb out on some thin limbs.

Try again UNSCOP did not advocate the ISLAMIC CONTROL
of the middle east and the enslavement of jews mandated by the
filth you so love. A very interesting example of jihado-filth
take on "democracy"----took place in a small island country which
has a muslim majority------the muslim majority "DEMOCRATICALLY" voted
to disenfranchise ALL NON MUSLIM CITIZENS-------and declare citizenship
void for all but muslims It is the "democracy" invented by muhummad.
About 20% of the residents of Saudi Arabia are non muslim----cannot be citizens, or
hold public office and have no rights at all. Good of you to bring up your version
of "DEMOCRACY" aemnity, before muhummed introduced "democracy"
to Arabia------it harbored significant populations of Christians, jews, Zoroastrians----and
a few other odd and ends-------all VOTED out of oxygen consumption

 

[amity1844]

irosie, you just need more education on this subject I think. You are full of venom and I can't parse the rest.

 

[irosie91]

irosie, you just need more education on this subject I think. You are full of venom and I can't parse the rest.

Aenmity----your statement has no more content than an eructation. In writing
it is important to be specific "you need more education on this subject"
means nothing unless you note to which subject you refer. To be reasonably
precise, since you infer that my statement is incorrect---at the very least
you should note in what way it is incorrect. The rest of your statement ---
"you are full of venom and can't parse the rest"--is also meaningless-----
something like a sandbox brat screaming at any person who passes "your
feet stink" You seem intent on PROVING that you have nothing to say

 

[50_RiaL]

irosie, you just need more education on this subject I think. You are full of venom and I can't parse the rest.

Aenmity----your statement has no more content than an eructation. In writing
it is important to be specific "you need more education on this subject"
means nothing unless you note to which subject you refer. To be reasonably
precise, since you infer that my statement is incorrect---at the very least
you should note in what way it is incorrect. The rest of your statement ---
"you are full of venom and can't parse the rest"--is also meaningless-----
something like a sandbox brat screaming at any person who passes "your
feet stink" You seem intent on PROVING that you have nothing to say

Nice to see you posting, again, Mrs. Rose.

(The poster you're addressing is that same Irish sad sap from the old board.)

 

[Roudy]

So true that among the indigenous Palestinians were Jews & not a single Muslim around, let alone Muslim Palestinians until after the 7th centrury AD. Want peace? End the occupation by finding a way for the Surrounding Arab countries to grant their Palestinians a right of return back to their indigenous homelands. LET THERE BE PEACE ALREADY!

Actually, there were no Palestinian Muslims, even the Arabs who call themselves by that name now would be insulted if someone called them by that name. The reason being, the term Palestinian referred exclusively to Jewish people who lived in the region. That is, until Yasser Arafat and his band of terrorist thugs decided to hijack the name one cloudy day in 1967 and attribute it to the mish mash of invading Arabs, from neighboring Arab lands.

Roudy, there are loads of sources referring to them as Muslims. I scratch my head over all this in wonder.

The only thing I can think of is that Egyptians sometimes refer to all Levantines collectively as "Shami". Means Damascene.

Other than that, I am not sure where this is coming from.

Don't scratch your head too much, you'll spread the lice and fleas all over the place.

The "Palestinians" themselves deny the existence of such a people:

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".
- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -

"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it".
- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -

 

[MJB12741]

I'm still trying to figure out how Israel is stealing "Palestinian land" when there were no Muslims at all in ancient Israel.

 

[irosie91]

I'm still trying to figure out how Israel is stealing "Palestinian land" when there were no Muslims at all in ancient Israel.

you missed it-----there is a jerk on these messagesboards who is still scratching
her head over Mendel and his sweet/pea experiments who claims Muslims---
who----by virtue of rape and enslavement and child confiscation ---managed to
mix into the Jewish gene pool-----can now CLAIM to be inheritors of jewish land.
A very interesting genetic study has also demonstrated that there is an extensive
admixture of sub-Saharan genetic material in the muslim populations
of Saudi Arabia and Egypt-----by virtue of the many millennia of Arabian slave trade and
Egytian slave trade Thus Egypt and Saudi Arabia inherit Africa be patient----
Yemen owns Ethiopia------the genetic admixture----also based ----earlier----when Yemeni
jews (ie before the invasion of the worshippers of the rapist of mecca)----on intermarriage
between Yemeni jews and Ethiopians (that Solomon and Sheba thing and Haile Salassi
"lion of Judah" legend has an historic basis many times over) Now that I think about it---
I own part of Ethiopia------but the elegant logic of our very own ---enmity

if our best poster would actually take a GOOD LOOK at genetic studies
over the past 40 years-----I and hubby would end up owning half the world----
in fact all humans would own ALL OF THE WORLD

 

[Challenger]

I'm still trying to figure out how Israel is stealing "Palestinian land" when there were no Muslims at all in ancient Israel.

It's rather like trying to figure out why the land should belong to Jewish Europeans when Judaism didn't exist in either ancient Europe or ancient Canaan (before the Hebrew invasion).

 

[irosie91]

I'm still trying to figure out how Israel is stealing "Palestinian land" when there were no Muslims at all in ancient Israel.

It's rather like trying to figure out why the land should belong to Jewish Europeans when Judaism didn't exist in either ancient Europe or ancient Canaan (before the Hebrew invasion).

Depends on what you call "ancient" and depends on how you determine
land ownership. I will entertain you with ZIONIST SOPHISTRY (did I say 'sophistry'?....
I meant FACT)

way back---uhm---lets say 5000 years ago (some 5000 years after the last ice age and sorta
the midmorning of human social history) the idea of BUYING land had already developed
in the lands that included the nile valley--the Mideast and the Fertile Crescent Big shots ---
(alpha huminoids) kinda bought land from other alphas------by agreement and by
trading daughters and by------hard malleable metals etc. There was a big shot who
did so------who hailed from some place called "ARAM" sorta in the fertile crescent-----
he wanted to strike out on his princely own-----and set out for BEERSHEBA (land of seven
somethings)----in the land of CANAAN which he kinda bought. He is the founder of the
Hebrew people----him and his wives and lots or retainers and servants and goats etc Beersheba
is sorta a desert------it was like going out west to Arizona-----not an "INVASION" ---in fact his
community actually attracted more people and even a few angels (kinda like jo smith in 'salt lake
city-----also not an invasion)

as time went on-----the land of canaan being where it was situated and its climate-----
saw lots of action----from east (Babylon, Assyria) from west (Egypt) from north--sorta
various other canaan social groups---------ultimately the only culture that was there at the mid
dawn of history------that SURVIVE until the noontide of human history (2000) years ago---
were the HEBREWS------the Hebrews got blown around the world----but remained cohesive on
the basis of legend, belief and language and custom-----and over the years ----repeated that
journey to the land of Canaan-----which had been over run by all sorts of people including
the hordes of Arabia. -------most overrunners eventually ran away----but the hordes of
Arabians want it all. They also overran BABYLON and just yesterday declared that land
an Arabian "caliphate"--------their name for ARAB STATE----a colony of Saudi arabia