Let's hypothesize what a "god" actually is

[daws101]

Actually, it's the other way around. Weak minded people lack the ability to comprehend God and instead, establish their faith in the material world. This is why you generally see more alcoholism and drug addiction, depression and suicide, and assorted other social problems in non-religious people.

bullshit,,,,There is no criteria of certain groups of people being more prone to addiction than other groups. A person either has an addictive personality, or they don't.

Didn't say certain people are more prone. Studies have been done, cases of alcoholism, drug abuse, depression and suicide, are all more prevalent in people who lack strong spiritual faith as opposed to those who have it. This is why so many rehab programs (like AA) advocate spiritual faith.

false! most all of the addicts are already believers...making the rehab's job just that much easier....

christians top the list of those incarcerated in the U.S. You can look it up on line. Atheists are at the bottom of that list...last time I looked.

 

[pacer]

Didn't say certain people are more prone. Studies have been done, cases of alcoholism, drug abuse, depression and suicide, are all more prevalent in people who lack strong spiritual faith as opposed to those who have it. This is why so many rehab programs (like AA) advocate spiritual faith.

It is the strong fellowship that keeps AA members from relapsing, whether they choose to lead a spiritual life or not. Alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, etc. does not discriminate. Please show us the studies indicating people who lack strong spiritual faith suffer from alcoholism, drug abuse, etc.

 

[dblack]

Didn't say certain people are more prone. Studies have been done, cases of alcoholism, drug abuse, depression and suicide, are all more prevalent in people who lack strong spiritual faith as opposed to those who have it. This is why so many rehab programs (like AA) advocate spiritual faith.

It is the strong fellowship that keeps AA members from relapsing, whether they choose to lead a spiritual life or not. Alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, etc. does not discriminate. Please show us the studies indicating people who lack strong spiritual faith suffer from alcoholism, drug abuse, etc.

While the fellowship is helpful, the key to AA's message is humility - coming to accept the limits of being a human being and not a god. I think that's often easier for people who have faith in a literal god, and the hubris of thinking you can have ultimate control might in fact be more common among non-believers. But anyone can 'see the light', atheist, agnostic or otherwise.

 

[pacer]

While the fellowship is helpful, the key to AA's message is humility - coming to accept the limits of being a human being and not a god. I think that's often easier for people who have faith in a literal god, and the hubris of thinking you can have ultimate control might in fact be more common among non-believers. But anyone can 'see the light', atheist, agnostic or otherwise.

A strong support system is the most important aspect of any rehabilitation program. It is not necessary to believe in god or to lead a spiritual life or to pray, etc. It is not a prerequisite for staying sober nor is it necessary to one's sobriety.

 

[Politico]

Didn't say certain people are more prone. Studies have been done, cases of alcoholism, drug abuse, depression and suicide, are all more prevalent in people who lack strong spiritual faith as opposed to those who have it. This is why so many rehab programs (like AA) advocate spiritual faith.

It is the strong fellowship that keeps AA members from relapsing, whether they choose to lead a spiritual life or not. Alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, etc. does not discriminate. Please show us the studies indicating people who lack strong spiritual faith suffer from alcoholism, drug abuse, etc.

Exactly. Whether it be God or the 12 steps, they can't function without a higher belief structure. That is fine with me if it keeps them out of my way.

 

[Iceweasel]

I believe in God for several reasons, none of them religious. It doesn't make sense to me that nothing exploded and everything happened. Life itself and maybe the universe seems to have a drive behind it. Life doesn't just exist, it's determined to exist and does so where ever possible.

I have also experienced things that are beyond chance or natural explanation, as I believe many have throughout the ages. I am convince that there is a "spiritual" realm or dimension of sorts.

As far as what God is I believe it occupies all dimensions and time/space. We occupy one aspect of it (3D and time) that we can see. It wouldn't be possible to understand God in this frame of reference anymore than a one dimensional creature could understand us.

As far as why, I used to know. Now I know that I don't know.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

If we allow for deities to literally exist, then they must have an orign and backstory.

You are basing this off the limited laws of man.

No, I'm basing this off confirmed science like astronomy. Everything we know about that exists conclusively was created from other things. Stars don't simply pop into existence from nothing, so if nothing (other than perhaps the universe itself) springs into existence, then neither would G-d.

Allow G-d to have existed before the universe did isn't very satisfying. Neither's allowing that G-d might be a 'Casper the Friendly Ghost' like entity without any physical body or planet of orign. If billions of people believe in something they call a god, why isn't believing that that god or gods exists physically (like everything else?)

 

[Delta4Embassy]

I believe in God for several reasons, none of them religious. It doesn't make sense to me that nothing exploded and everything happened. Life itself and maybe the universe seems to have a drive behind it. Life doesn't just exist, it's determined to exist and does so where ever possible.

I have also experienced things that are beyond chance or natural explanation, as I believe many have throughout the ages. I am convince that there is a "spiritual" realm or dimension of sorts.

As far as what God is I believe it occupies all dimensions and time/space. We occupy one aspect of it (3D and time) that we can see. It wouldn't be possible to understand God in this frame of reference anymore than a one dimensional creature could understand us.

As far as why, I used to know. Now I know that I don't know.

Have also experienced unusual phenomenae, but before I make the leap to supernatural or divine I look for a scientific explanation. Science, in particular quantum physics contains enough counter-intuitive weirdness that before believing in ghosts or divine beings, allow for the possibility that what you experienced, or believe you experienced was simply something perfectly natural and normal but very weird.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

If we allow for deities to literally exist, then they must have an orign and backstory. They have to have evolved on some planet somewhere in the universe. If your idea of a god is some kind of unexplained spiritual being who popped into existence one day then explain that. If, like me, you think maybe ancient humans encountered beings they couldn't explain (i.e. aliens) and lacking the idea of aliens from another planet took to calling them gods, angels, demons, etc. explain their orign.
.....
Bottom line though is if accounts of gods are to be believed as literal events, then they have to be from somewhere and possess physical bodies, and the technology required to have gotten here from some other star system. Believing in G-d as a ghost of sorts who can simply wish things into reality might well be the case, but isn't much fun to think about since Bewitched and I Dream of Jeanie already kinda covered it.

I'm kind of floored here by your arrogant notions. Consider this for a moment... What if all that man knows and understands as "physical science" or "physics" is the equivalent in universal knowledge to man inventing the wheel? What if we are so far in the dark in terms of comprehending things, that we can't even imagine the principles or technology within this universe?

You see, we humans know what we know, and that's really all we know. I believe there is far more that we don't know and will never know about our universe. We define something we call "physical nature" and develop study around it. We discover principles, rules that apply universally to this thing we've created. But humans have only five senses and those we know are limited. We can only comprehend what our senses allow us to. We cannot rationalize beyond that. If a caveman found a PC, would he have any idea of what it was or how to use it? What about a DVD? Would he understand or comprehend the technology?

Your post illustrates a somewhat naive and simplistic viewpoint based solely in your ability to rationalize what you know. You presume a creator must have been created. You assume that Gods must come from other planets. But most importantly, you seem to have this notion that "existence" can only be as you comprehend, physical in nature. That everything in this entire universe must absolutely follow your understanding of physical law and conform to those dynamics.

Ask yourself a few questions here. Why does gravity exist in our universe? Why do certain particles become electrically charged? What causes some combinations of elements become organic while those very same elements can also be inorganic? What was "existence" before the big bang? How did matter come to exist? You can ponder how things work, develop science around your ideas and understandings, but we have difficulty going beyond that and discovering why things are as they are. Who invented logic? Where does it come from? Was there a time when logic didn't exist in the universe and it suddenly popped into existence one day and things became rational?

Can things exist that you are not aware of? The answer is, of course they can. Your awareness or comprehension of something are not required for it to exist. And existence can include things beyond the physical nature you do comprehend.

Everything in the universe we know to exist is made up of atoms, dark matter, or dark energy. Everything is in fact made up of something. If gods humans have claimed to have encountered really existed, so that we humans were able to physically see them, then they MUST exist as some kind of matter-based lifeform.

Prove using the Scientific Method ghosts exist or can exist and we'll discuss the possibility G-d is a ghost. But until then, I'll operate under the assumption that if physical humans saw, heard, or otherwise experienced a divine being that that beings was composed of matter.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If we allow for deities to literally exist, then they must have an orign and backstory. They have to have evolved on some planet somewhere in the universe. If your idea of a god is some kind of unexplained spiritual being who popped into existence one day then explain that. If, like me, you think maybe ancient humans encountered beings they couldn't explain (i.e. aliens) and lacking the idea of aliens from another planet took to calling them gods, angels, demons, etc. explain their orign.

Given the various religious descriptions of gods, namely how they seem interested in us, one might assume their orign and evolution is similar to our own, but much further along. Otherwise their being interested in us would be difficult to rationalize. Further, since they seem benevolent and akin to parents, one might conclude something in their history led to that nature. If they were simply like us, but with better technology I dare say we wouldn't be here right now, and they would be having wiped us out and taken over our planet. That we still exist after encounters with gods and divine beings suggests they're vastly superior to us, that our ideal little planet wasn't something they needed.

When reading the Bible's descriptions of encounters with divinity be it G-d, or angels, if we remove the divine aspect and replace those descriptions with more realistic 'aliens' and alien technology it's much more believable. The only alternative is it's all lies, and that seems unlikely. I think something was going on, and ancient authors used those words they had and understood the best they can. So instead of aliens, 'gods' interacted with them.

But that they were 'gods' instead of simply some strangers from far away (foreigners they recognized as other people et al. instead of 'godly beings') suggests vastly superior technology as well as physical appearences obviously 'not from this planet.'

Where they might be from is anybody's guess. Theorectical propulsion methods like literal warp drives right out of Star Trek are supposedly possible, just hugely impractical. But if physics allows something, we might conclude far older species might have achieved such technology. So they could be from just about anywhere in the galaxy. I don't think it'd make much sense to explore outside your own home galaxy, but who knows. There's certainly pleanty of stars and planets within a few thousand light-years of Earth. And anyone who could traverse interstellar distances would be for all intents and purposes god-like even to us today.

Bottom line though is if accounts of gods are to be believed as literal events, then they have to be from somewhere and possess physical bodies, and the technology required to have gotten here from some other star system. Believing in G-d as a ghost of sorts who can simply wish things into reality might well be the case, but isn't much fun to think about since Bewitched and I Dream of Jeanie already kinda covered it.

Why would they have to evolve on a planet? Why not evolve on stars?

 

[daws101]

If we allow for deities to literally exist, then they must have an orign and backstory. They have to have evolved on some planet somewhere in the universe. If your idea of a god is some kind of unexplained spiritual being who popped into existence one day then explain that. If, like me, you think maybe ancient humans encountered beings they couldn't explain (i.e. aliens) and lacking the idea of aliens from another planet took to calling them gods, angels, demons, etc. explain their orign.
.....
Bottom line though is if accounts of gods are to be believed as literal events, then they have to be from somewhere and possess physical bodies, and the technology required to have gotten here from some other star system. Believing in G-d as a ghost of sorts who can simply wish things into reality might well be the case, but isn't much fun to think about since Bewitched and I Dream of Jeanie already kinda covered it.

I'm kind of floored here by your arrogant notions. Consider this for a moment... What if all that man knows and understands as "physical science" or "physics" is the equivalent in universal knowledge to man inventing the wheel? What if we are so far in the dark in terms of comprehending things, that we can't even imagine the principles or technology within this universe?

You see, we humans know what we know, and that's really all we know. I believe there is far more that we don't know and will never know about our universe. We define something we call "physical nature" and develop study around it. We discover principles, rules that apply universally to this thing we've created. But humans have only five senses and those we know are limited. We can only comprehend what our senses allow us to. We cannot rationalize beyond that. If a caveman found a PC, would he have any idea of what it was or how to use it? What about a DVD? Would he understand or comprehend the technology?

Your post illustrates a somewhat naive and simplistic viewpoint based solely in your ability to rationalize what you know. You presume a creator must have been created. You assume that Gods must come from other planets. But most importantly, you seem to have this notion that "existence" can only be as you comprehend, physical in nature. That everything in this entire universe must absolutely follow your understanding of physical law and conform to those dynamics.

Ask yourself a few questions here. Why does gravity exist in our universe? Why do certain particles become electrically charged? What causes some combinations of elements become organic while those very same elements can also be inorganic? What was "existence" before the big bang? How did matter come to exist? You can ponder how things work, develop science around your ideas and understandings, but we have difficulty going beyond that and discovering why things are as they are. Who invented logic? Where does it come from? Was there a time when logic didn't exist in the universe and it suddenly popped into existence one day and things became rational?

Can things exist that you are not aware of? The answer is, of course they can. Your awareness or comprehension of something are not required for it to exist. And existence can include things beyond the physical nature you do comprehend.

Everything in the universe we know to exist is made up of atoms, dark matter, or dark energy. Everything is in fact made up of something. If gods humans have claimed to have encountered really existed, so that we humans were able to physically see them, then they MUST exist as some kind of matter-based lifeform.

Prove using the Scientific Method ghosts exist or can exist and we'll discuss the possibility G-d is a ghost. But until then, I'll operate under the assumption that if physical humans saw, heard, or otherwise experienced a divine being that that beings was composed of matter.

ironically boss proclaims everyone else has a closed mind!

 

[daws101]

If we allow for deities to literally exist, then they must have an orign and backstory. They have to have evolved on some planet somewhere in the universe. If your idea of a god is some kind of unexplained spiritual being who popped into existence one day then explain that. If, like me, you think maybe ancient humans encountered beings they couldn't explain (i.e. aliens) and lacking the idea of aliens from another planet took to calling them gods, angels, demons, etc. explain their orign.

Given the various religious descriptions of gods, namely how they seem interested in us, one might assume their orign and evolution is similar to our own, but much further along. Otherwise their being interested in us would be difficult to rationalize. Further, since they seem benevolent and akin to parents, one might conclude something in their history led to that nature. If they were simply like us, but with better technology I dare say we wouldn't be here right now, and they would be having wiped us out and taken over our planet. That we still exist after encounters with gods and divine beings suggests they're vastly superior to us, that our ideal little planet wasn't something they needed.

When reading the Bible's descriptions of encounters with divinity be it G-d, or angels, if we remove the divine aspect and replace those descriptions with more realistic 'aliens' and alien technology it's much more believable. The only alternative is it's all lies, and that seems unlikely. I think something was going on, and ancient authors used those words they had and understood the best they can. So instead of aliens, 'gods' interacted with them.

But that they were 'gods' instead of simply some strangers from far away (foreigners they recognized as other people et al. instead of 'godly beings') suggests vastly superior technology as well as physical appearences obviously 'not from this planet.'

Where they might be from is anybody's guess. Theorectical propulsion methods like literal warp drives right out of Star Trek are supposedly possible, just hugely impractical. But if physics allows something, we might conclude far older species might have achieved such technology. So they could be from just about anywhere in the galaxy. I don't think it'd make much sense to explore outside your own home galaxy, but who knows. There's certainly pleanty of stars and planets within a few thousand light-years of Earth. And anyone who could traverse interstellar distances would be for all intents and purposes god-like even to us today.

Bottom line though is if accounts of gods are to be believed as literal events, then they have to be from somewhere and possess physical bodies, and the technology required to have gotten here from some other star system. Believing in G-d as a ghost of sorts who can simply wish things into reality might well be the case, but isn't much fun to think about since Bewitched and I Dream of Jeanie already kinda covered it.

Why would they have to evolve on a planet? Why not evolve on stars?

if that were possible "they" would be deadly to any other life form other then their own..

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If we allow for deities to literally exist, then they must have an orign and backstory. They have to have evolved on some planet somewhere in the universe. If your idea of a god is some kind of unexplained spiritual being who popped into existence one day then explain that. If, like me, you think maybe ancient humans encountered beings they couldn't explain (i.e. aliens) and lacking the idea of aliens from another planet took to calling them gods, angels, demons, etc. explain their orign.

Given the various religious descriptions of gods, namely how they seem interested in us, one might assume their orign and evolution is similar to our own, but much further along. Otherwise their being interested in us would be difficult to rationalize. Further, since they seem benevolent and akin to parents, one might conclude something in their history led to that nature. If they were simply like us, but with better technology I dare say we wouldn't be here right now, and they would be having wiped us out and taken over our planet. That we still exist after encounters with gods and divine beings suggests they're vastly superior to us, that our ideal little planet wasn't something they needed.

When reading the Bible's descriptions of encounters with divinity be it G-d, or angels, if we remove the divine aspect and replace those descriptions with more realistic 'aliens' and alien technology it's much more believable. The only alternative is it's all lies, and that seems unlikely. I think something was going on, and ancient authors used those words they had and understood the best they can. So instead of aliens, 'gods' interacted with them.

But that they were 'gods' instead of simply some strangers from far away (foreigners they recognized as other people et al. instead of 'godly beings') suggests vastly superior technology as well as physical appearences obviously 'not from this planet.'

Where they might be from is anybody's guess. Theorectical propulsion methods like literal warp drives right out of Star Trek are supposedly possible, just hugely impractical. But if physics allows something, we might conclude far older species might have achieved such technology. So they could be from just about anywhere in the galaxy. I don't think it'd make much sense to explore outside your own home galaxy, but who knows. There's certainly pleanty of stars and planets within a few thousand light-years of Earth. And anyone who could traverse interstellar distances would be for all intents and purposes god-like even to us today.

Bottom line though is if accounts of gods are to be believed as literal events, then they have to be from somewhere and possess physical bodies, and the technology required to have gotten here from some other star system. Believing in G-d as a ghost of sorts who can simply wish things into reality might well be the case, but isn't much fun to think about since Bewitched and I Dream of Jeanie already kinda covered it.

Why would they have to evolve on a planet? Why not evolve on stars?

if that were possible "they" would be deadly to any other life form other then their own..

Ever read the Bible?

Exodus 33 18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.” 19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

 

[IlarMeilyr]

If we allow for deities to literally exist, then they must have an orign and backstory.

???....why?......

Because --

well, frankly, because he said so.

THAT's why.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Any God worthy of the name wouldn't worry one iota what delta.4embassy hypothesizes.

 

[Boss]

Everything in the universe we know to exist is made up of atoms, dark matter, or dark energy. Everything is in fact made up of something. If gods humans have claimed to have encountered really existed, so that we humans were able to physically see them, then they MUST exist as some kind of matter-based lifeform.

Prove using the Scientific Method ghosts exist or can exist and we'll discuss the possibility G-d is a ghost. But until then, I'll operate under the assumption that if physical humans saw, heard, or otherwise experienced a divine being that that beings was composed of matter.

And I would say you may be correct, unless a spiritual force that we can't comprehend, manifest itself into the shape and form of something physical in order to communicate with our life form.

Why are you demanding I prove something with the Scientific Method after all I just posted about this subject? Did you not read my post? What if our Scientific Method is comparable to cavemen determining which rocks make good wheels? What if there is technology and intelligence out there that is so far advanced from our own that we can't even imagine it?

Define "dark matter" for me? You started out correctly... Everything in the universe WE KNOW to exist... There is (ahem) at least a small possibility... minuscule as it is... that we do not KNOW everything! I know that comes as a shock to people like daws, but it is true.

 

[Boss]

Didn't say certain people are more prone. Studies have been done, cases of alcoholism, drug abuse, depression and suicide, are all more prevalent in people who lack strong spiritual faith as opposed to those who have it. This is why so many rehab programs (like AA) advocate spiritual faith.

It is the strong fellowship that keeps AA members from relapsing, whether they choose to lead a spiritual life or not. Alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, etc. does not discriminate. Please show us the studies indicating people who lack strong spiritual faith suffer from alcoholism, drug abuse, etc.

Damn, are you morons completely unable to read the posts, or what? I mean, I have heard of retardation before, but I've never witnesses anything like this in my life. I did not say that alcoholism, drug abuse. etc. are exclusive to non-spiritual people. I don't recall off the top of my head who conducted the study or when, **I suppose I could go and look it up if it's really that frickin important. But the study concluded the rate per capita of all these things is more prevalent in people who lack spiritual faith. Also, people who have strong spiritual faith tend to live longer. Do I need to clarify that I have not stated that religious people all live longer than non-religious people? Are you dimwits too stupid to read my words and comprehend them correctly?

Dear Jesus on a cracker!


Edit: **Here is a wiki page on the subject, it is so big...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_happiness

...mentions something about 498 studies published in peer-reviewed journals...

 

[pacer]

Damn, are you morons completely unable to read the posts, or what? I mean, I have heard of retardation before, but I've never witnesses anything like this in my life. I did not say that alcoholism, drug abuse. etc. are exclusive to non-spiritual people. I don't recall off the top of my head who conducted the study or when, **I suppose I could go and look it up if it's really that frickin important. But the study concluded the rate per capita of all these things is more prevalent in people who lack spiritual faith. Also, people who have strong spiritual faith tend to live longer. Do I need to clarify that I have not stated that religious people all live longer than non-religious people? Are you dimwits too stupid to read my words and comprehend them correctly?

Dear Jesus on a cracker!


Edit: **Here is a wiki page on the subject, it is so big...
Religion and happiness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...mentions something about 498 studies published in peer-reviewed journals...

There was no need for the name-calling. We understood you completely and addressed your comments, accordingly.

Once again, alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, etc. does not discriminate. It is no more prevalent in one group of individuals than another. Addictions, depression, etc. can strike anyone, whether a Sunday school teacher, business man, President of the U.S., or bus driver.

Spiritual development is a lifestyle "choice". Being spiritual may give life deeper meaning but whether in fact people who lead a spiritual lifestyle have a tendency to live longer is debateable. I am not aware of any study making this claim. Death does not discriminate.

The link you provided discusses religion and happiness. It states that of the 498 studies, a large majority (of studies) showed a "positive correlation between religious commitment and higher levels of perceived well-being and self-esteem, etc.". The individuals who participated in these test groups were "selected" according to specific criteria. The studies do not make a general "comparison" between religious/spiritual and non-religious/non-spiritual individuals or claim that it is more prevalent, in general, in people who lack spiritual faith to become alcoholics, drug abusers, etc.

 

[Iceweasel]

Have also experienced unusual phenomenae, but before I make the leap to supernatural or divine I look for a scientific explanation. Science, in particular quantum physics contains enough counter-intuitive weirdness that before believing in ghosts or divine beings, allow for the possibility that what you experienced, or believe you experienced was simply something perfectly natural and normal but very weird.

No there was nothing natural about them. I'll defer to my experiences instead of your opinion. I also said it wasn't the only reason I believed in a supernatural realm. And yes, I am well aware of the unscientific opinion that uncertainty on the quantum level can account for any possibility but God.

 

[Boss]

Damn, are you morons completely unable to read the posts, or what? I mean, I have heard of retardation before, but I've never witnesses anything like this in my life. I did not say that alcoholism, drug abuse. etc. are exclusive to non-spiritual people. I don't recall off the top of my head who conducted the study or when, **I suppose I could go and look it up if it's really that frickin important. But the study concluded the rate per capita of all these things is more prevalent in people who lack spiritual faith. Also, people who have strong spiritual faith tend to live longer. Do I need to clarify that I have not stated that religious people all live longer than non-religious people? Are you dimwits too stupid to read my words and comprehend them correctly?

Dear Jesus on a cracker!


Edit: **Here is a wiki page on the subject, it is so big...
Religion and happiness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...mentions something about 498 studies published in peer-reviewed journals...

There was no need for the name-calling. We understood you completely and addressed your comments, accordingly.

Oh you should have seen what I originally wrote and decided to tone down! You didn't understand a damn thing. You did what liberals always do, you reacted with the typical knee-jerk challenge to what you didn't like with demands for links and totally misinterpreted context of what was said. Your empty little heads are closed to any thought that isn't 100% in accordance to liberal doctrine.

Once again, alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, etc. does not discriminate. It is no more prevalent in one group of individuals than another. Addictions, depression, etc. can strike anyone, whether a Sunday school teacher, business man, President of the U.S., or bus driver.

Once again, I just posted a Wiki page chock-full of independent studies which conclude otherwise, dimwit. No one has claimed that alcoholism, depression, etc., can't strike anyone. That was never stated by me and was never a point that I tried to make.

Spiritual development is a lifestyle "choice". Being spiritual may give life deeper meaning but whether in fact people who lead a spiritual lifestyle have a tendency to live longer is debateable. I am not aware of any study making this claim. Death does not discriminate.

You've been given a link to 498 studies which were peer reviewed and came to the same conclusion. Yes, people who are happier, have less depression, suffer less from alcoholism, drug abuse, etc., DO tend to live longer. I'm certain that at least a few of the 498 studies examined that very thing. But it takes a real moron of epic proportion to even challenge such a claim.

The link you provided discusses religion and happiness. It states that of the 498 studies, a large majority (of studies) showed a "positive correlation between religious commitment and higher levels of perceived well-being and self-esteem, etc.". The individuals who participated in these test groups were "selected" according to specific criteria. The studies do not make a general "comparison" between religious/spiritual and non-religious/non-spiritual individuals or claim that it is more prevalent, in general, in people who lack spiritual faith to become alcoholics, drug abusers, etc.

So when presented with nearly 500 peer reviewed studies to back up exactly what I stated, you are going to still insist on refusing to believe it and stubbornly cling to your mantra? YES, every study... all 498 of them, concluded that it is more prevalent! Not ONE supported YOUR argument. YES... people were selected according to criteria... that's how studies are done, moron.