CDZ Liberty

[Porter Rockwell]

Are you sure you've read this thread?

Interesting read.

I fully support your Right to believe anything you like. As a matter of fact I will and have fought for your Right to say and believe it. That don't make it true.

Thanx for your service Porter.....

You, along w/the rest of you do pose some enlightening points of view , perhaps there's some actual 'neck up' in this one....

So speaking as a completely uneducated uncultured reclusive bluecollar redneck, do i really have the right to be ignorant ,abusive & disrespectful about the liberties granted us all?

~S~

I'm just sharing opinions and observations. Yours may differ. I'm ignorant about a lot of things, which is one reason I started this thread. We have a Right to be abusive and disrespectful or otherwise the First Amendment wouldn't mean much.

In my opinion, I don't try to overthink this. You have Rights and I have Rights. We should get to exercise them to the extent that we are not infringing on each other's Rights. That is where government comes in. That one critic thinks I'm the worst form of life on this earth. But, you know, he's now put himself in a corner and will have to learn the hard way. I think I've debated and argued with the toughest critics on this board. We've both stood our ground and, at best, only altered each other's opinions only slightly. My original intent was to get down to a fundamental question that I can't find a definitive answer to:

If we're moving toward this society that has the third world with more representation in our country than the posterity of the founders and framers, how are going to get government to make good on that guarantee of a Republican Form of Government? No political candidate has stood up and said that the solutions being proffered are a danger to our Liberties. No candidate has said that we need to address our problems in a manner that protects Rights that are, by definition, above the reach of government. Then again, the de facto forces do not recognize those Rights and, consequently, most of what I have said has no meaning for them.

 

[Gdjjr]

I have to wonder why people fear and have such contempt for others who don't believe as they do- again, it speaks to basic education as no rational person could read anything about our founding History and arrive at anything other than Liberty is acceptable.

 

[danielpalos]

The Liberty to do what any foreign national may do, and apply Yankee ingenuity.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I had a specific direction I wanted to go to when I started this thread, but we didn't make it there before the thread died. For those who participated, thank you.

 

[Gdjjr]

I had a specific direction I wanted to go to when I started this thread, but we didn't make it there before the thread died. For those who participated, thank you.

Keep it going- sowing seeds reaps rewards.

 

[danielpalos]

I had a specific direction I wanted to go to when I started this thread, but we didn't make it there before the thread died. For those who participated, thank you.

you are welcome to come up with any hypotheticals you want.

 

[MAGAman]

Only well regulated militia of the United States may not be Infringed when it is about the security of our free States or the Union.

Read A2.

It clearly and plainly says the right of the "people", not the right of the militia.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I had a specific direction I wanted to go to when I started this thread, but we didn't make it there before the thread died. For those who participated, thank you.

Keep it going- sowing seeds reaps rewards.

If you're right, I'm going to say something that has needed to be said for the benefit of all sides of this issue. Let's hope someone reads this.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." (an excerpt from the Declaration of Independence)

I'm always bolding words that I want people to pay more attention to than the rest of a sentence or paragraph. In this instance America was founded on the presupposition that your Creator (your God, whomever you deem that to be) bestowed upon you, at birth, Rights which are above the reach of man. If you don't believe in God, those Rights have also been called natural, inherent, absolute, irrevocable, unalienable, etc. Bottom line, that was the presupposition.

Although we do not acknowledge those unalienable Rights today, Thomas Jefferson said that the Declaration of Independence is the Declaratory Charter of the Rights of Man.

The people on both sides of the political aisle seek to control their fellow man. For example, on the right those people think that the only way someone should enter the United States is via some "legal" process and that Rights only apply if you are a "legal" citizen. So, one of the foundational principles of our Declaratory Charter says all men are created equal, but the right says that we must adhere to some arbitrary quota as to how many come in as guests. So, the foreigner is not really entitled to Liberty and some employers are discriminated against since the quota system does not allow employers to pick who they hire. Then people suddenly become "criminals" because they dare to exercise the unalienable Right of Liberty.

Then there are all those objections that people are flooding our country; cheap labor drives down wages; they didn't come here "legally." Reality check: foreigners come here because Americans willingly hire them, rent to them, buy from them and otherwise do business with them. It's the free enterprise system at work. Before you judge me, let's visit the other side of the aisle.

The left seeks control over your life. They want the government in charge of your health (socialized healthcare) and some on the left want guaranteed wages (a guaranteed income.) They want to take away your ability to protect yourself so they advocate for gun control. The left likes to control the words you say and how you publicly express yourself.

There is a commonality to this other than the evil of control. What happens in society is a result of our culture and our behavior. In one part of America firearms are outlawed, but they have a high crime rate. In another part of America there is enough firearms for every household in that area and those places are among the safest on earth. That is a reflection of the values and culture of a given area. The right conflates Liberty with citizenship; the left despises unalienable Rights because government has no control.

My point is that you cannot build a government big enough to save you from yourself. If you don't want drug dealers in America, then you have to treat drugs the way society treats white racists. There is ZERO toleration for them across the board, whether in government or in the private sector. If you don't want foreigners in your town, don't hire them. Don't rent to them and don't do business with companies that do cater to them. Rather than lock them out, petition the government to abolish anti-discriminatory laws and allow you to hire who you do want to work for you.

If you don't like the rates of violence in America, get to the root of the problem. Quit blaming inanimate objects and admit the truth. The rate of violence is a reflection of our culture, not the tools by which are used. That should be evident by the fact that one geographical area outlaws firearms and has a high rate of violence and a gun friendly community has a lower than average rate of violence. We have to overcome this obsession with wanting to control the lives of others. If we continue to ignore this subject, you will wake up one morning in a totalitarian dictatorship and wonder what went wrong. The problem is in our culture and if we don't change our culture, we're going to destroy Freedom and Liberty.

 

[Gdjjr]

Great post!

The problem is in our culture and if we don't change our culture, we're going to destroy Freedom and Liberty.

I want to iterate the above- that coincides with my "Sincere Question" thread- not intending to steal any thunder here. You articulate well! But change in culture cannot be forced, legislated or mandated. It has to come from Individual effort.

 

[Gdjjr]

Porter, it seems you're not alone in your beliefs.

Discrimination and Liberty

Wise individuals discriminate all the time. Think about it.

Of course the author of the article hopes readers can think.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Great post!

The problem is in our culture and if we don't change our culture, we're going to destroy Freedom and Liberty.

I want to iterate the above- that coincides with my "Sincere Question" thread- not intending to steal any thunder here. You articulate well! But change in culture cannot be forced, legislated or mandated. It has to come from Individual effort.

We change our culture one person at a time and with some general idea of who it is we want to be as a nation. I didn't know about your thread. I'll see if I can find it and check it out.

 

[Gdjjr]

We change our culture one person at a time and with some general idea of who it is we want to be as a nation

AMEN!

 

[danielpalos]

Only well regulated militia of the United States may not be Infringed when it is about the security of our free States or the Union.

Read A2.

It clearly and plainly says the right of the "people", not the right of the militia.

Most Persons clearly understand the People are the Militia. It does not say the People are necessary to the security of a free State.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Only well regulated militia of the United States may not be Infringed when it is about the security of our free States or the Union.

Read A2.

It clearly and plainly says the right of the "people", not the right of the militia.

Most Persons clearly understand the People are the Militia. It does not say the People are necessary to the security of a free State.

The militia is only a part of this issue. I served five consecutive terms as the Commanding Officer of what was the largest and is the oldest civilian militia in the United States. We recruited more people into the militia than all the other civilian militias combined!

Here is the problem with the militia per se:

The Right of the people to keep and bear Arms is a preexisting Right; it's a fundamental part of protecting an individual's Right to Life. The militia is necessary to the security of a free state. However, we eliminated the state's rights by going to the direct election of U.S. Senators. States no longer have a voice in the federal legislature. We've bastardized our Constitution and moved toward a direct democracy.

The states, no longer having a voice in the federal government, are simply part of the federal government, having very little of their state sovereignty left. Then, along comes the federal government and through technical court decisions, the feds are claiming they grant you your individual "rights" via the 14th Amendment and the federal government has created multiple federal agencies to do the jobs that are (constitutionally) in the state's jurisdiction (the federal Dept. of Education comes to mind.)

The federal government takes away states rights; they force states to comply with federal mandates or be denied federal funding; the feds have claimed they abolished unalienable Rights. Even if a state maintains a militia, the state has no Rights. But, at the end of the day, the people are the militia - NOT the government. What we're experiencing is WHY the militia was created. But, bottom line: the people, not the state, constitute the militia. If the government, under any pretext violates the Liberties of the people, then the people have the Right, the Duty and the Obligation to throw off such government. The people are obligated to exhaust all of their nonviolent political and legal avenues of redress, but at the end of the day, they are not required to submit to a yoke of tyranny - whether such yoke comes at the hands of the state or federal government.

 

[task0778]

I believe that equality under the law is a good thing, but shouldn't equality in the marketplace be as well? Should we have the liberty to treat someone as a 2nd-class citizen for whatever reason? I'm not sure we are better off as a society if that is the case.

 

[Gdjjr]

I believe that equality under the law is a good thing, but shouldn't equality in the marketplace be as well? Should we have the liberty to treat someone as a 2nd-class citizen for whatever reason? I'm not sure we are better off as a society if that is the case.

How is it determined someone is treated as second class?

 

[task0778]

I believe that equality under the law is a good thing, but shouldn't equality in the marketplace be as well? Should we have the liberty to treat someone as a 2nd-class citizen for whatever reason? I'm not sure we are better off as a society if that is the case.

How is it determined someone is treated as second class?

You want the freedom to discriminate, right? Treat people differently, right? Some better than others, right? I.E., some get 1st class treatment, some 2nd, some 3rd, right?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I believe that equality under the law is a good thing, but shouldn't equality in the marketplace be as well? Should we have the liberty to treat someone as a 2nd-class citizen for whatever reason? I'm not sure we are better off as a society if that is the case.

What you describe is forced equality. That is not equality.

One of the great hallmarks of our society is the ability to have the Right to choose. A synonym for that Right would be discrimination.

The employer has you fill out an application and / or submit a resume as a prerequisite to getting a job. That is discrimination. Why not first come, first served?

A lady is at a dance. A man asks her to dance and she declines. Was she obligated to dance with him? Does the reason she turned him down matter?

We already DO treat people differently in society. Think about the genocidal warfare against whites. Churches get denied tax exempt status if they don't give equal status to practices the majority find distasteful... churches opposed to inter-racial marriage, the LGBTQP lifestyle, and / or promote conservative (sic) values.

The liberals are removing the any vestige of white culture going after their monuments, memorials, statues, flags... even the pictures of who is on the money. Where do you see any equality there?

I'm a second class citizen, but you wouldn't acknowledge it. Do you have any idea how many times I've been called "overqualified?" My stomach is empty, a job opening exists, and I'm "overqualified?" I'm white, over 40 and heterosexual. I have no political "in" as do women and minorities. So, am I supposed to run around with a woe is me attitude and feeling like a second class citizen?

 

[Natural Citizen]

I've never been a fan of institutionalized equality. There's no such thing as true equality in the workplace. Some people are simply more naturally gifted than others. Or more qualified.Some carry themselves well while other do not.

I've hired and fired many, many people in my lifetime. Thankfully I've had to let far fewer people go than those whom I've hired. I've never been happy about it. Those people have families to support just like everyone else.

Sometimes they just don't work out well. Is what it is.

 

[task0778]

"I've never been a fan of institutionalized equality."

Should we not as individuals and as a society try to treat others fairly and impartially? Is it right to apply the Golden Rule to some but not all? Is it okay to treat some like shit and others not? Why isn't equality under the law a good idea, that's institutional equality, no?

There's no such thing as true equality in the workplace. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to treat everyone with the same dignity and respect.

Some people are simply more naturally gifted than others. Or more qualified.Some carry themselves well while other do not. So what? Do the less gifted or qualified deserve to be treated differently?

Here's the thing - human nature being what it is, if you do not have laws that protect the rights and liberties of everyone then you will have some people who are abused and mistreated. A civil society should not allow that to happen, in so far as is possible.