Lincoln was a great leader exclusive of the war, darn him

[paperview]

Care to discuss the decades in the South, before the War, when Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press and Freedom of Association was not allowed?

Your post means nothing and appears to be an effort to derail the debate on Lincoln's many tyrannical actions.

I oppose government tyranny no matter where it occurs.

Some simple minded people seem to think if one is critical of Lincoln, then the one automatically loves the south. Try not to be so simplistic.

You're the one that brought it up, Bubba, pointing a finger at one - during wartime, and not acknowledging the wholesale abuse of rights not during wartime, of those you repeatedly defend.

Again you confuse my position.

You seem to believe that because I am critical of Lincoln, I approve of abusive actions by the Confederacy.

Most illogical.

Every post I've seen of yours on the subject, you defend the South to the hilt. Have some intellectually honesty and admit the future Confederates were every bit the tyrants you abhor in the North.

You make my point. I regularly criticize Dishonest Abe, but seldom have defended the South other than to say that every state was sovereign, prior to Lincoln's war, and had the right to secede.

You just want to believe that I am some kind of crazy Neo-Confederate for dissing your beloved Lincoln. It is a knee jerk reaction common to Lincoln cultists.

That's bullshit. People are free to look at the history of your posts to see how much you throw, Mr. War of Northern Aggression.

 

[Claudette]

Lincoln was the gold standard. No doubt about it.

 

[bripat9643]

If you believe that, you like tyranny.

It's fact that it was constitutional.

Those who resisted lawful government and tried to destroy the nation brought on lawful consequences.

You believe government can do whatever it wants in war time.

Is it any wonder politicians and the power elite love war, when some of the people will gladly grant them unlimited power.

Care to discuss the decades in the South, before the War, when Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press and Freedom of Association was not allowed?

Hmmmm . . . the first thing the federalists did when they got into power was pass the alien and sedition acts, so you're blubbering about free speech in the South is rather hypocritical, don't you think?

ah, here goest the relativism.

First the alien and sedition acts were passed during a time of war in 1798 - two years later, they were gone.

Now explain how that compared to DECADES - not in a time of war, when the South did not allow Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press and Freedom of Association?

1798 was not a time of war. Even if it was, where does the Constitution say the First Amendment is repealed during wartime?

Lincoln cult members have a thousand ways to excuse the crimes of their heroes.

 

[g5000]

He "saved the nation" in the same sense that Stalin "saved" the Soviet Union from freedom.

Your whining is the bitter tears of a sore loser.

There's a reason the slaveholding South lost the war. Your defense of that evil organism is pathetic.

 

[gipper]

Your post means nothing and appears to be an effort to derail the debate on Lincoln's many tyrannical actions.

I oppose government tyranny no matter where it occurs.

Some simple minded people seem to think if one is critical of Lincoln, then the one automatically loves the south. Try not to be so simplistic.

You're the one that brought it up, Bubba, pointing a finger at one - during wartime, and not acknowledging the wholesale abuse of rights not during wartime, of those you repeatedly defend.

Again you confuse my position.

You seem to believe that because I am critical of Lincoln, I approve of abusive actions by the Confederacy.

Most illogical.

Every post I've seen of yours on the subject, you defend the South to the hilt. Have some intellectually honesty and admit the future Confederates were every bit the tyrants you abhor in the North.

You make my point. I regularly criticize Dishonest Abe, but seldom have defended the South other than to say that every state was sovereign, prior to Lincoln's war, and had the right to secede.

You just want to believe that I am some kind of crazy Neo-Confederate for dissing your beloved Lincoln. It is a knee jerk reaction common to Lincoln cultists.

That's bullshit. People are free to look at the history of your posts to see how much you throw, Mr. War of Northern Aggression.

No it is not bullshit. Please post my posts defending the Confederacy "to the hilt," as you have claimed. It should be easy for you...just throwing out accusations without proof, is foolish...but typical of the Lincoln cultist.

 

[paperview]

It's fact that it was constitutional.

Those who resisted lawful government and tried to destroy the nation brought on lawful consequences.

You believe government can do whatever it wants in war time.

Is it any wonder politicians and the power elite love war, when some of the people will gladly grant them unlimited power.

Care to discuss the decades in the South, before the War, when Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press and Freedom of Association was not allowed?

Hmmmm . . . the first thing the federalists did when they got into power was pass the alien and sedition acts, so you're blubbering about free speech in the South is rather hypocritical, don't you think?

ah, here goest the relativism.

First the alien and sedition acts were passed during a time of war in 1798 - two years later, they were gone.

Now explain how that compared to DECADES - not in a time of war, when the South did not allow Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press and Freedom of Association?

1798 was not a time of war. Even if it was, where does the Constitution say the First Amendment is repealed during wartime?

Lincoln cult members have a thousand ways to excuse the crimes of their heroes.

We were in an undeclared war with France.

Quasi-War - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Nobody defended the A&S Act, idiot, I was stating what happened, and also how it was gone a few years later --> because *it was* an issue.

And yes, if Martial law is called, your Rights can be suspended. Just like they did in the South.

However, the South suspended Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press and Freedom of Association -- for decades - even without a war, and you, JimBobReb, hold these tyrants up as your heroes and comrades.

 

[paperview]

You're the one that brought it up, Bubba, pointing a finger at one - during wartime, and not acknowledging the wholesale abuse of rights not during wartime, of those you repeatedly defend.

Again you confuse my position.

You seem to believe that because I am critical of Lincoln, I approve of abusive actions by the Confederacy.

Most illogical.

Every post I've seen of yours on the subject, you defend the South to the hilt. Have some intellectually honesty and admit the future Confederates were every bit the tyrants you abhor in the North.

You make my point. I regularly criticize Dishonest Abe, but seldom have defended the South other than to say that every state was sovereign, prior to Lincoln's war, and had the right to secede.

You just want to believe that I am some kind of crazy Neo-Confederate for dissing your beloved Lincoln. It is a knee jerk reaction common to Lincoln cultists.

That's bullshit. People are free to look at the history of your posts to see how much you throw, Mr. War of Northern Aggression.

No it is not bullshit. Please post my posts defending the Confederacy "to the hilt," as you have claimed. It should be easy for you...just throwing out accusations without proof, is foolish...but typical of the Lincoln cultist.

I don't have the time or inclination. People are free to peruse your post history and see your defense of the South.

 

[gipper]

Again you confuse my position.

You seem to believe that because I am critical of Lincoln, I approve of abusive actions by the Confederacy.

Most illogical.

Every post I've seen of yours on the subject, you defend the South to the hilt. Have some intellectually honesty and admit the future Confederates were every bit the tyrants you abhor in the North.

You make my point. I regularly criticize Dishonest Abe, but seldom have defended the South other than to say that every state was sovereign, prior to Lincoln's war, and had the right to secede.

You just want to believe that I am some kind of crazy Neo-Confederate for dissing your beloved Lincoln. It is a knee jerk reaction common to Lincoln cultists.

That's bullshit. People are free to look at the history of your posts to see how much you throw, Mr. War of Northern Aggression.

No it is not bullshit. Please post my posts defending the Confederacy "to the hilt," as you have claimed. It should be easy for you...just throwing out accusations without proof, is foolish...but typical of the Lincoln cultist.

I don't have the time or inclination. People are free to peruse your post history and see your defense of the South.

Chickenshit!

 

[jwoodie]

Lincoln could have quarantined the seceding States without calling for an invasion. In that event Virginia would never have joined the Confederacy, which would have ultimately collapsed. In the mean time Congress would have been able to restrict the expansion of slavery, which would have died out within 20 years.

Was it worth 600,000 lives to move up this time line?

 

[paperview]

gipper, it is wonderful in our country that we have generally the freedom to say what we want, yeah? Even you.

Agreed. However freedom of speech is under attack today as it was during Lincoln's time...when he closed hundreds of neespapers and imprisoned hundreds of people who disagreed with his war and unconstitutional acts.

For decades in the South, before the War, Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press and Freedom of Association was not allowed.

At least Lincoln did so in a time of war - and most often for good reason.

The Confederacy imprisoned thousands of political prisoners as well, but your DiLorenzo propaganda (the White Nationalist strikes again!) counts a great number of people, who in a time of war were
Deserters or draft evaders, there were those who were smuggling, conducting guerrilla activity, spying, etc.,
those found to be illegally trading with the Confederacy,
thieves who defrauded the War Department,
or those who were Confederate civilians in the Union.

The number of hundreds of newspapers has never been confirmed, DiLorenzo exaggerates, but newspapers who were shut down were often those who were calling for Union soldiers to desert, encouraging men to resist the draft, or advocated more states to join the confederacy - most often carried out by a few Union Officers.

One General who did arrest a newspaper published was called on the carpet by Lincoln with this:

"Under your recent order, which I have approved, you will only arrest individuals, and suppress assemblies, or newspapers, when they may be working palpable injury to the Military in your charge; and, in no other case will you interfere with the expression of opinion in any form, or allow it to be interfere with the expression of opinion in any form, or allow it to be interfered with violently by others. In this, you have a discretion to exercise with great caution, calmness, and forebearance.”
“With the matters of removing the inhabitants of certain counties en masse; and of removing certain individuals from time to time, who are supposed to be mischievous, I am not now interfering, but I am leaving to your own discretion.”

Abraham Lincoln and Missouri

Lincoln's depredations in the course of the war were not confined, however, to the South. As mentioned above Lincoln also interfered with the functioning of constitutional government in the North by arresting elected representatives of the people and holding them for military trial. /57 By Executive Order he closed down hundreds of newspapers in the North which criticized the war. He abolished the writ of habeas corpus and is estimated to have held as many as 20,000 civilians in detention without trial. /58 The suffering of the North, while not as horrific as that of the South, especially since the Northern civilian population at large escaped its severity, was none the less very real. The battle losses were far in excess of anyone's expectations. /59
Shattering the Icon of Abraham Lincoln

Lincoln was hated by many in both the North and South during his disastrous tenure as POTUS. It wasn't until after his death, that he was turned into a cult like figure...which sadly many Americans have accepted as factual.

Hey, Doof, you just quoted from a notorious Historical Revisionist and Holocaust Denial rag.

"The Institute for Historical Review (IHR), founded in 1978, is an organization primarily devoted to publishing and promoting books and essays that deny established facts concerning the Nazi genocide of Jews. It is considered by many scholars as the world's leading Holocaust denial organization. Critics have accused the Institute of antisemitism and having links to neo-Nazi organizations."

Great go-to source for those of your ilk for solid historical information , bygum!

 

[bripat9643]

Again you confuse my position.

You seem to believe that because I am critical of Lincoln, I approve of abusive actions by the Confederacy.

Most illogical.

Every post I've seen of yours on the subject, you defend the South to the hilt. Have some intellectually honesty and admit the future Confederates were every bit the tyrants you abhor in the North.

You make my point. I regularly criticize Dishonest Abe, but seldom have defended the South other than to say that every state was sovereign, prior to Lincoln's war, and had the right to secede.

You just want to believe that I am some kind of crazy Neo-Confederate for dissing your beloved Lincoln. It is a knee jerk reaction common to Lincoln cultists.

That's bullshit. People are free to look at the history of your posts to see how much you throw, Mr. War of Northern Aggression.

No it is not bullshit. Please post my posts defending the Confederacy "to the hilt," as you have claimed. It should be easy for you...just throwing out accusations without proof, is foolish...but typical of the Lincoln cultist.

I don't have the time or inclination. People are free to peruse your post history and see your defense of the South.

I would worry about them perusing your sleazy posting history if I were you. The bulk of it consists of slander, lies, smears and insults.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Lincoln could have quarantined the seceding States without calling for an invasion. In that event Virginia would never have joined the Confederacy, which would have ultimately collapsed. In the mean time Congress would have been able to restrict the expansion of slavery, which would have died out within 20 years.

Was it worth 600,000 lives to move up this time line?

The time line was not an issue at all.

The problem, like Emily and others on the far right today, was the unwillingness to submit to constitutional, electoral process.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Now we have bripat defending Nazi literature as he has communist in the past.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

because the congress regarded the southern members as merely absent rather than being in a different country somewhere, the Republicans were able to do lots of things for good and bad. The southern members insured transformational politics. I don't like, for example, the corruption that went with the railroads. But the republican congresses between 1861 and 1867 did more for the country than any prior to 1933, and more good for the country ever.

The president of the nation after Lincoln died was a democrat from a slave state....

A rabidly anti slavery democrat from east Tennessee. I said congresses too.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

This thread really isn't about Lincoln's war time service. I have to admit Lincoln wasn't really all that great about choosing generals. MacCllelan, Hooker, Burnside, Hallock, Fremont. Grant, Sherman, Thomas rose in the west where he wouldn't know about them.

I notice the hate Lincoln crowd have nothing to say about the cow colleges, the national banking act, the homestead act, the railroad act. They admit he was great there, and move on to suppressing treason in ways not delicate. It wasn't a delicate time, & I believe Lincoln was a lot more delicate than the situation called for.

 

[jwoodie]

Lincoln could have quarantined the seceding States without calling for an invasion. In that event Virginia would never have joined the Confederacy, which would have ultimately collapsed. In the mean time Congress would have been able to restrict the expansion of slavery, which would have died out within 20 years.

Was it worth 600,000 lives to move up this time line?

The time line was not an issue at all.

The problem, like Emily and others on the far right today, was the unwillingness to submit to constitutional, electoral process.

Explain?

 

[JakeStarkey]

because the congress regarded the southern members as merely absent rather than being in a different country somewhere, the Republicans were able to do lots of things for good and bad. The southern members insured transformational politics. I don't like, for example, the corruption that went with the railroads. But the republican congresses between 1861 and 1867 did more for the country than any prior to 1933, and more good for the country ever.

The president of the nation after Lincoln died was a democrat from a slave state....

A rabidly anti slavery democrat from east Tennessee. I said congresses too.

A rabid anti slavery Unionist democrat from east Tennessee, a hot bed of Unionism.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Lincoln could have quarantined the seceding States without calling for an invasion. In that event Virginia would never have joined the Confederacy, which would have ultimately collapsed. In the mean time Congress would have been able to restrict the expansion of slavery, which would have died out within 20 years.

Was it worth 600,000 lives to move up this time line?

The time line was not an issue at all.

The problem, like Emily and others on the far right today, was the unwillingness to submit to constitutional, electoral process.

Explain?

The South lost the election of 1860 and refused to submit to constitutional, electoral process.

 

[paperview]

"Lincoln could have quarantined the seceding States..."

 

[gipper]

Lincoln could have quarantined the seceding States without calling for an invasion. In that event Virginia would never have joined the Confederacy, which would have ultimately collapsed. In the mean time Congress would have been able to restrict the expansion of slavery, which would have died out within 20 years.

Was it worth 600,000 lives to move up this time line?

The time line was not an issue at all.

The problem, like Emily and others on the far right today, was the unwillingness to submit to constitutional, electoral process.

Explain?

The South lost the election of 1860 and refused to submit to constitutional, electoral process.

And they chose to secede, which was their right.