Zone1 Losing their religion: why US churches are on the decline

[Meriweather]

That's Christian pagan gobbledygook.

I agree that it is gobbledygook, but I know it is not the Christian view--and I very much doubt it is the pagan view either.

 

[GMCGeneral]

I don't believe the Bible says any such thing. Evil is the lack of good, and God saw that what He created was good. Jesus said we are the salt of the earth.

Romans 3:10 and 3:23 say otherwise. There is NONE righteous. Because of our sin, we are incapable of doing good.

 

[GMCGeneral]

This part I agree with. Where we may disagree is whether forgiveness grants an instant and automatic change?

Catholics believe purification through God's grace can continue after death. We do not see this purification as being accomplished instantly by the snap of Godly fingers. In other words forgiveness and grace are two different, and two separate things. God supplies the grace, but we must do the work.

Nope. violates Ephesians 2:8-10. Works cannot save us AT ALL. And the process of Sanctification only occurs within THIS life.

 

[Meriweather]

Romans 3:10 and 3:23 say otherwise. There is NONE righteous. Because of our sin, we are incapable of doing good.

Read all the verses in between. Paul is warning what happens when people go their own way, or the way of the world, totally ignoring God.

 

[Meriweather]

Nope. violates Ephesians 2:8-10. Works cannot save us AT ALL. And the process of Sanctification only occurs within THIS life.

So then...you believe God forgave Mr. Dahmer, filled him with grace, and Mr. Dahmer sinned no more. That's an amazing about face after just quoting Romans that assures us there is zero good in us.

Most Protestant sects won't even accept Mary was without sin, but is accepted by some Christians that Jeffrey Dahmer managed it after saying he accepted Jesus. Mary couldn't manage it, but Mr. Dahmer could.

I think I understand why some are angry.

 

[GMCGeneral]

So then...you believe God forgave Mr. Dahmer, filled him with grace, and Mr. Dahmer sinned no more. That's an amazing about face after just quoting Romans that assures us there is zero good in us.

Most Protestant sects won't even accept Mary was without sin, but is accepted by some Christians that Jeffrey Dahmer managed it after saying he accepted Jesus. Mary couldn't manage it, but Mr. Dahmer could.

I think I understand why some are angry.

Mary was as much human as everyone else. The only one without sin is Jesus. Mary has no divine nature, and she did not remain a virgin, contrary to Vatican teaching. Jesus had half-siblings within his earthly family.

 

[Red Front]

Romans 3:10 and 3:23 say otherwise. There is NONE righteous. Because of our sin, we are incapable of doing good.

GMC, if Paul is saying that, he's wrong. Do you care? No. You don't care if Paul is wrong, because Biblical truth isn't your concern. You could care less what the truth is. Citing the book with chapter and verse # isn't sufficient evidence in a debate forum. The burden of properly presenting the proof is upon the person making the claim. What does Romans 3:10,3:23 say? Elaborate. Stop being lazy and further commit yourself to a position that can be examined. No one should be chasing Biblical verses here. Fully cite your sources or lose the debate.

 

[Red Front]

Nope. violates Ephesians 2:8-10. Works cannot save us AT ALL. And the process of Sanctification only occurs within THIS life.

Cite your sources fully here. No one should have to chase your references.

 

[Red Front]

I agree that it is gobbledygook, but I know it is not the Christian view--and I very much doubt it is the pagan view either.

There are different pagan views. Christianity or more accurately, Paulianity, is 1st-century, Greco-Gnostic paganism. It has nothing to do with the Hebrew faith of Israel.

Evangelical Christianity is one of the most destructive religions in the world, undermining human progress and survival. The way to deal with these brainwashed religionists is to show them how their religion is full of contradictions. These Evangelicals don't base their beliefs on reason, science, or even their own Bibles but rather on pure emotion. Their Bible is a hodgepodge of inconsistencies. When you're having a discussion or debate with an adult Evangelical, you're not interacting with a mature adult. These people use religion as a crutch, due to their inability to come to terms with reality.

 

[SweetSue92]

You're not born again, saved, being saved, or will be saved, if you don't give it all up. You need to take your home, lands, vehicles, businesses, and all of that private property and lay it down at the foot of the cross and body of Jesus. What is the body of Jesus today in the 21st century? The assembly of believers. You must hold such things in common with your brothers and sisters in Christ. That is the most emblematic trait and qualifying marker of a true disciple of the Messiah. Your willingness to lay it ALL down at the feet of your brethren. Until you do that, you're just a deluded counterfeit, playing "church games".

Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that any of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Master Yahshua: and great grace was upon them all.
Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Act 4:36 And Joseph, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabah, which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation, a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
Act 4:37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.


Joh_17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


Joh_17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh_17:22 And the honor which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh_17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


Joh_13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh_13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

The world doesn't know Yahshua (the one you erroneously call "Jesus"), and considers "Christians", especially "Evangelicals", just a bunch of self-serving, deluded, spiritually impotent hypocrites. There's no "great power" nor "great grace", in the modern, worldly-obsessed, mammon-worshiping, pagan "church" i.e. circus.

If you don't see it, you're not of the elect, but rather one of the many rebellious, confused "Christians", who believe the body of Messiah is a building that people go to once or twice weekly to listen to a sermon. That's not the qahal or what you call in English "the church". The modern "Christian" church is a counterfeit, full of tares. No wheat.

The true body of Messiah in this fallen, satanic world, is not theoretically, metaphorically, or abstractly one. They are really, actually, identifiably one. The true, unambiguous, clear, and obvious trait of a genuine disciple of the Messiah, is that he or she is willing to lay it ALL down at the foot of the body of Messiah. All privately held assets are held in common, among the believers. Housing, the land, the facilities of production as in business enterprises, all of the equipment and "means of production", are in the hands of the body of Messiah. Your brothers and sisters lay it all down before your feet and you do the same for them. If you don't realize this ASAP and repent, you're not a born-again disciple of the Messiah. You're just a rebellious, confused tare.

Mar 10:28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left ALL, and have followed thee.
Mar 10:29 And Yahshua answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the good news,
Mar 10:30 But he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Mar 10:31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

There was no lack or scarcity, just like in heaven, where the holy spirits i.e. heavenly angels, are always in a selfless state of being, serving YHWH and their heavenly family. The earthly body of Messiah is a reflection of the heavenly commune of holy spirits. If you are truly a born again (born from above) believer and governor in training, a member of Messiah's royal family and elect, then you don't have a choice in the matter. You have to lay it all down before the feet of your brothers and sisters in Messiah. You will be ONE:

Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that any of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

One heart, one soul. That reality of oneness and unity among believers manifests in communalism i.e. theistic communism/theocratic communism. Common ownership of houses, lands, and the means of production. If you don't want to call that communism, don't. You don't have to call it "communism", call it whatever you want. Until you submit yourself to the Messiah's program for His earthly body, you're a deluded lone-ranger, counterfeit tare.

Question.

Do you have a job?

 

[Red Front]

Question.

Do you have a job?

Your religious faith is false. Your spiritual life is a lie. Do you care?

 

[SweetSue92]

Your religious faith is false. Your spiritual life is a lie. Do you care?

This is not an answer. A simple answer would be: yes, I have a job. For instance, I do. So does my husband.

So try this:

Do you have a job?

 

[Red Front]

This is not an answer. A simple answer would be: yes, I have a job. For instance, I do. So does my husband.

So try this:

Do you have a job?

You're not answering my question. Your religion is based on ripping verses in the Hebrew Bible out of context, mistranslations, and fabricated "evidence". Do you care?

What I do for a living is off-topic and none of your business. It's completely irrelevant to what we are discussing here on this thread.

 

[SweetSue92]

You're not answering my questions. Your religion is based on ripping verses in the Hebrew Bible out of context, mistranslations, and fabricated "evidence". Do you care?

What I do for a living is off-topic and none of your business. It's completely irrelevant to what we are discussing here on this thread.

Okay, so this explains your Communism. You don't have a job, and perhaps to make yourself feel better about wanting those of us who have jobs to support you, you have given your Communism a veneer of faith.

Look here:

Jesus did not call any disciples who were lazy and didn't work. Peter was a fisherman. Matthew was a tax collector. There were not malingering men. First.

Second, the Bible CLEARLY states this:

For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."11 We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies.12 Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat.--2 Thes 3:10-12

There is it: EARN the bread you eat. It's all throughout the Bible, from Adam being told he would eat by the sweat of his brow, right through the Proverbs, and right here.

I sincerely hope you will find saving faith in Jesus Christ. He is able to save you to the uttermost. He is never, ever to be used to uphold OTHER beliefs. That is idolatry. Jesus, thank God in heaven, transcends political ideologies.

 

[Red Front]

Okay, so this explains your Communism. You don't have a job, and perhaps to make yourself feel better about wanting those of us who have jobs to support you, you have given your Communism a veneer of faith.

Look here:

Jesus did not call any disciples who were lazy and didn't work. Peter was a fisherman. Matthew was a tax collector. There were not malingering men. First.

Second, the Bible CLEARLY states this:

For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."11 We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies.12 Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat.--2 Thes 3:10-12

There is it: EARN the bread you eat. It's all throughout the Bible, from Adam being told he would eat by the sweat of his brow, right through the Proverbs, and right here.

I sincerely hope you will find saving faith in Jesus Christ. He is able to save you to the uttermost. He is never, ever to be used to uphold OTHER beliefs. That is idolatry. Jesus, thank God in heaven, transcends political ideologies.

You're going off on a delusional tantrum about me not working or earning my keep. The Jesus that you claim to follow and his disciples, were communists, according to many passages in the gospels and in the book of Acts. You can deny it, but the verses are there, and quite explicit. Holding all private property in common, with your brothers and sisters in Christ, doesn't equate "not working", being lazy, or being a busybody. That's your unnecessary, disingenuous, silly assumption.

You're not a Christian, you're a Paulinist. Practically everything you Evangelicals cite from the NT is from Paul.

 

[SweetSue92]

You're going off on a delusional tantrum about me not working or earning my keep. The Jesus that you claim to follow and his disciples, were communists, according to many passages in the gospels and in the book of acts. You can deny it, but the verses are there, and quite explicit. Holding all private property in common, with your brothers and sisters in Christ, doesn't equate "not working", being lazy, or being a busybody. That's your unnecessary, disingenuous, silly assumption.

You're not a Christian, you're a Paulinist. Practically everything you Evangelicals cite from the NT is from Paul.

Why don't you have a job? Is there a medical reason that is valid?

Because otherwise, if you claim Jesus--2 Thes 3:10-12

 

[Red Front]

Why don't you have a job? Is there a medical reason that is valid?

Because otherwise, if you claim Jesus--2 Thes 3:10-12

What I do personally to earn and generate an income, is none of your business. It's completely off-topic. What's the point in asking me what I do for a living? What's the purpose of asking me such a personal question? I could care less what you do for a living, that's none of my business and is completely irrelevant to the issue/s we're discussing here.

 

[SweetSue92]

What I do personally to earn and generate an income, is none of your business. It's completely off-topic. What's the point in asking me what I do for a living? What's the purpose of asking me such a personal question? I could care less what you do for a living, that's none of my business and is completely irrelevant to the issue/s we're discussing here.

Because you are accusing Christians of not living up to Christian standards. If you do not have a job, then you also are not living up to Christian standards.

 

[Red Front]

Because you are accusing Christians of not living up to Christian standards. If you do not have a job, then you also are not living up to Christian standards.

Yes, I'm asserting that the vast majority of people who claim to be disciples of Jesus aren't, due to their unwillingness to obey Jesus with regard to their ownership of private property, loving their brethren in Christ with the same sacrificial love with which he loved them. The oneness and unity of the body of Christ under the leadership of Jesus when he was here in the flesh or under the direction of his twelve apostles, was communist. They were theistic, theocratic communists. They weren't Marxists or Atheists, but they were communists nonetheless. You don't have to be an Atheist or a Marxist, to be a communist. If you are indeed a disciple of Jesus, a member of his royal family, then you're going to be a communist, both in this mortal life and in your immortal existence as well. No one is capitalizing on each other's needs in the Kingdom of YHWH. The holy spirits i.e. angels selflessly serve each other's needs.

Indeed, everyone that can work and earn their keep, must do that. Your assumption that I don't work because I'm not telling you what I do for a living is your irrational, unnecessary speculation and fancy. Your delusions about my personal life, don't determine the veracity of my argument, that true Christians are communists.

 

[SweetSue92]

Yes, I'm asserting that the vast majority of people who claim to be disciples of Jesus aren't, due to their unwillingness to obey Jesus with regard to their ownership of private property, loving their brethren in Christ with the same sacrificial love with which he loved them. The oneness and unity of the body of Christ under the leadership of Jesus when he was here in the flesh or under the direction of his twelve apostles, was communist. They were theistic, theocratic communists. They weren't Marxists or Atheists, but they were communists nonetheless. You don't have to be an Atheist or a Marxist, to be a communist. If you are indeed a disciple of Jesus, a member of his royal family, then you're going to be a communist, both in this mortal life and in your immortal existence as well. No one is capitalizing on each other's needs in the Kingdom of YHWH. The holy spirits i.e. angels selflessly serve each other's needs.

Indeed, everyone that can work and earn their keep, must do that. Your assumption that I don't work because I'm not telling you what I do for a living is your irrational, unnecessary speculation and fancy. Your delusions about my personal life, don't determine the veracity of my argument, that true Christians are communists.

It is not sinful for Christians to own private property.

It is sinful for Christians to be greedy. That's it.