Zone1 Losing their religion: why US churches are on the decline

[Red Front]

So you have an exclusive right to judge others?

Do I have an "exclusive right" to judge others? I judge, is that wrong? What's your judgment of me judging? Hello? The book that you claim is the Word of YHWH, your Christian NT, clearly states that Jesus expects you to love and obey his commandments. You can't love him unless you're keeping his commandments. That's apparent to anyone who reads the verses that I cited unless you're seriously lacking in your reading comprehension.

 

[JoeB131]

I can counter with Son of Sam killer David Berkowicz. He is Heavenbound because he put his trust in Christ.

That's messed up. He killed six people.

He should be held more accountable in the afterlife than someone who merely cheated on his wife and has no regrets.

A God who is more concerned with how much you grovel in front of him rather than actual, you know, justice isn't worthy of anyone's respect.

 

[Meriweather]

A God who is more concerned with how much you grovel in front of him rather than actual, you know, justice isn't worthy of anyone's respect.

We might remember Jesus had different words for people who turned from sin (errors/trespasses) and those who did evil.

 

[JoeB131]

We might remember Jesus had different words for people who turned from sin (errors/trespasses) and those who did evil.

Sure, but it's still stupid.

Come on, Jeff Dahmner gets pass for eating 19 people because he said he was really sorry and accepted Jesus.

 

[GMCGeneral]

That's messed up. He killed six people.

He should be held more accountable in the afterlife than someone who merely cheated on his wife and has no regrets.

A God who is more concerned with how much you grovel in front of him rather than actual, you know, justice isn't worthy of anyone's respect.

You fail to recognize that the only sin that ia unforgivable is the ain against the Spirit. Think of the Theif on the Cross. He is in Heavan now. Christ's shed blood secures salvation for ALL who trust Him.

 

[jwoodie]

Do I have an "exclusive right" to judge others? I judge, is that wrong?

It is

Do I have an "exclusive right" to judge others? I judge, is that wrong?

It is wrong (or at least hypocritical) to judge others while denying them the same right.

 

[Mac1958]

Religious people did a lousy job representing their faith.

Indeed.

Not to mention:

 

[Red Front]

Of course I do. I have been saved since 1989. The only thiby God expects of me is to willingly submit to His will. Obedience comes naturally and any sin and unrighteousness has already been dealt with.

You're not born again, saved, being saved, or will be saved, if you don't give it all up. You need to take your home, lands, vehicles, businesses, and all of that private property and lay it down at the foot of the cross and body of Jesus. What is the body of Jesus today in the 21st century? The assembly of believers. You must hold such things in common with your brothers and sisters in Christ. That is the most emblematic trait and qualifying marker of a true disciple of the Messiah. Your willingness to lay it ALL down at the feet of your brethren. Until you do that, you're just a deluded counterfeit, playing "church games".

Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that any of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Master Yahshua: and great grace was upon them all.
Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Act 4:36 And Joseph, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabah, which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation, a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
Act 4:37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.


Joh_17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


Joh_17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh_17:22 And the honor which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh_17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


Joh_13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh_13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

The world doesn't know Yahshua (the one you erroneously call "Jesus"), and considers "Christians", especially "Evangelicals", just a bunch of self-serving, deluded, spiritually impotent hypocrites. There's no "great power" nor "great grace", in the modern, worldly-obsessed, mammon-worshiping, pagan "church" i.e. circus.

If you don't see it, you're not of the elect, but rather one of the many rebellious, confused "Christians", who believe the body of Messiah is a building that people go to once or twice weekly to listen to a sermon. That's not the qahal or what you call in English "the church". The modern "Christian" church is a counterfeit, full of tares. No wheat.

The true body of Messiah in this fallen, satanic world, is not theoretically, metaphorically, or abstractly one. They are really, actually, identifiably one. The true, unambiguous, clear, and obvious trait of a genuine disciple of the Messiah, is that he or she is willing to lay it ALL down at the foot of the body of Messiah. All privately held assets are held in common, among the believers. Housing, the land, the facilities of production as in business enterprises, all of the equipment and "means of production", are in the hands of the body of Messiah. Your brothers and sisters lay it all down before your feet and you do the same for them. If you don't realize this ASAP and repent, you're not a born-again disciple of the Messiah. You're just a rebellious, confused tare.

Mar 10:28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left ALL, and have followed thee.
Mar 10:29 And Yahshua answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the good news,
Mar 10:30 But he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Mar 10:31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

There was no lack or scarcity, just like in heaven, where the holy spirits i.e. heavenly angels, are always in a selfless state of being, serving YHWH and their heavenly family. The earthly body of Messiah is a reflection of the heavenly commune of holy spirits. If you are truly a born again (born from above) believer and governor in training, a member of Messiah's royal family and elect, then you don't have a choice in the matter. You have to lay it all down before the feet of your brothers and sisters in Messiah. You will be ONE:

Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that any of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

One heart, one soul. That reality of oneness and unity among believers manifests in communalism i.e. theistic communism/theocratic communism. Common ownership of houses, lands, and the means of production. If you don't want to call that communism, don't. You don't have to call it "communism", call it whatever you want. Until you submit yourself to the Messiah's program for His earthly body, you're a deluded lone-ranger, counterfeit tare.

 

[Red Front]

It is

It is wrong (or at least hypocritical) to judge others while denying them the same right.

Is that your judgment?

 

[Blues Man]

1. How do you define "a good life?"
2. What standards do you apply in making this determination?
3. Where did these standards come from?

Thank you in advance for enumerating your reply.

A good life to me is one that does not cause harm or suffering to humans and animals alike.

The standards of such a life are self explanatory

And you could say these standards come from any of a number of different philosophies I first found them Buddhism.

And even though people think Buddhism is a religion it isn't as there are no gods worshiped no divine doctrines and no divine judgement rewards or punishment.

 

[Meriweather]

Come on, Jeff Dahmner gets pass for eating 19 people because he said he was really sorry and accepted Jesus.

Stop. No one knows if he got "a pass" or not. Final judgment is over what dwells in a man's heart, not the words that pass his lips.

 

[JoeB131]

You fail to recognize that the only sin that ia unforgivable is the ain against the Spirit. Think of the Theif on the Cross. He is in Heavan now. Christ's shed blood secures salvation for ALL who trust Him.

Sorry, man, that's absurd. Jeff Dahmer deserved to be punished because he snuffed out 17 young lives. I don't care how much he prayed to Jesus for forgiveness, he deserved to be punished. Going to heaven after another inmate brained him is the crux of injustice.

Stop. No one knows if he got "a pass" or not. Final judgment is over what dwells in a man's heart, not the words that pass his lips.

For the record, he didn't go anywhere after he died because no one does.

But I was talking in the theological theory that even the worst sinner is forgiven as long as he embraces Jesus! So if Chef Jeff was REALLY sincere in his repentence, he should get into Heaven? The 6 Billion of us who aren't Christians, we are just out of luck, no matter how good of people we are. But the most degenerate sinner all he has to do is say some Hail Marys, and he's fine.

I find this as absurd at the age of 60 that I found it when Sister Mary Butch said it when I was 12.

 

[GMCGeneral]

Sorry, man, that's absurd. Jeff Dahmer deserved to be punished because he snuffed out 17 young lives. I don't care how much he prayed to Jesus for forgiveness, he deserved to be punished. Going to heaven after another inmate brained him is the crux of injustice.


For the record, he didn't go anywhere after he died because no one does.

But I was talking in the theological theory that even the worst sinner is forgiven as long as he embraces Jesus! So if Chef Jeff was REALLY sincere in his repentence, he should get into Heaven? The 6 Billion of us who aren't Christians, we are just out of luck, no matter how good of people we are. But the most degenerate sinner all he has to do is say some Hail Marys, and he's fine.

I find this as absurd at the age of 60 that I found it when Sister Mary Butch said it when I was 12.

It is only "absurd" to those who don't trust Christ as their Lord and Master over their lives. See, mankind was born into sin, and that means you, me, Anne Frank, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. etc. Without Messiah's shed blood, we all face the wrath and justice of G-d because we REFUSE to trust Jesus and think we know better. All that you describe, and much more "sins" are but mere symptoms of the DISEASE of the Sin that will condemn us, and that is pride and unbelief. So regardless of whether it was a mass murderer like David Berkowicz, or someone who fibbed, we all face the exact same judgement and wrath. There is no varying degree of "badness", and just because someone seems "good" in the worldy sense, all of mankind still falls under the same indictment. Romans 3:23 states "For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God". This is why Christ came. To pay the penalty for our sin IN FULL. This does not necessarily mean that believers are perfect, nor does it excuse sinful behavior by the same, but since Christ took our rightful punishment out of His love for us, we no longer are under condemnation.

 

[Meriweather]

But I was talking in the theological theory that even the worst sinner is forgiven as long as he embraces Jesus! So if Chef Jeff was REALLY sincere in his repentence, he should get into Heaven? The 6 Billion of us who aren't Christians, we are just out of luck, no matter how good of people we are. But the most degenerate sinner all he has to do is say some Hail Marys, and he's fine.

And I am talking theology. Jesus had different words for evil doers--including, "Depart from me, I never knew you." Evil is the lack of love. Do you believe Mr. Dahmer began to cultivate love of others after he was caught? Do you believe he was ever able to love?

 

[GMCGeneral]

And I am talking theology. Jesus had different words for evil doers--including, "Depart from me, I never knew you." Evil is the lack of love. Do you believe Mr. Dahmer began to cultivate love of others after he was caught? Do you believe he was ever able to love?

Which leads me to the premise that God is more than capable of not only mercy and grace, but power to change people from the inside out. Again, I think of David Berkowicz, the notorious "Son of Sam" killer that terrorized NYC back in the late 70s. He came to Faith and I see firsthand the radical transformation that God made in him. He does acknowledge his responsibility and accepts the consequences of the sin he committed-even to the point of REFUSING parole every time it was offered. Or how about this: The late Paul Hegstrom, founder of Life Skills International ministries, was a vicious abuser. First of his wife, Judy, then of another woman he had an affair with. There was a 1996 John Ritter movie based upon this entitled "Unforgiveable". Anyhoo, As Paul threw himself at the foot of the Cross, God began to do what He does best. Change Paul's heart. Over time, Paul and Judy reconciled and remarried, seven years later and their second marriage thrived in ways you cannot imagine.. Even Tammy, their oldest child, reconciled with Paul. Point is, people put God in a box and think in terms of their puny, limited concept rather than taking God at face value and trusting Him by faith.

 

[GMCGeneral]

And I am talking theology. Jesus had different words for evil doers--including, "Depart from me, I never knew you." Evil is the lack of love. Do you believe Mr. Dahmer began to cultivate love of others after he was caught? Do you believe he was ever able to love?

I would not say the "lack of love", I would say mankind's true nature. There is zero good in mankind, according to Scripture in both OT and NT.

 

[Red Front]

It is only "absurd" to those who don't trust Christ as their Lord and Master over their lives. See, mankind was born into sin, and that means you, me, Anne Frank, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. etc. Without Messiah's shed blood, we all face the wrath and justice of G-d because we REFUSE to trust Jesus and think we know better. All that you describe, and much more "sins" are but mere symptoms of the DISEASE of the Sin that will condemn us, and that is pride and unbelief. So regardless of whether it was a mass murderer like David Berkowicz, or someone who fibbed, we all face the exact same judgement and wrath. There is no varying degree of "badness", and just because someone seems "good" in the worldy sense, all of mankind still falls under the same indictment. Romans 3:23 states "For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God". This is why Christ came. To pay the penalty for our sin IN FULL. This does not necessarily mean that believers are perfect, nor does it excuse sinful behavior by the same, but since Christ took our rightful punishment out of His love for us, we no longer are under condemnation.

Stop slandering YHWH with your pagan tripe. Blood sacrifices were just one of several ways to expatiate sin.

 

[Meriweather]

Which leads me to the premise that God is more than capable of not only mercy and grace, but power to change people from the inside out.

This part I agree with. Where we may disagree is whether forgiveness grants an instant and automatic change?

Catholics believe purification through God's grace can continue after death. We do not see this purification as being accomplished instantly by the snap of Godly fingers. In other words forgiveness and grace are two different, and two separate things. God supplies the grace, but we must do the work.

 

[Red Front]

I would not say the "lack of love", I would say mankind's true nature. There is zero good in mankind, according to Scripture in both OT and NT.

The Hebrew Bible, what you erroneously call the "Old Testament", doesn't agree with your assertion that mankind's true nature is evil and there is "zero good" in man. That's Christian pagan gobbledygook.

 

[Meriweather]

There is zero good in mankind, according to Scripture in both OT and NT.

I don't believe the Bible says any such thing. Evil is the lack of good, and God saw that what He created was good. Jesus said we are the salt of the earth.