Margaret thatcher died

[Indofred]

You really think the UK is better off for THatcher, most Brits don't think so.

Absolutely - yes.

Another labour government would have totally destroyed the UK.
The unions would have been in effective control of everything.
Workers' commitees would have had effective control over industry.
Benn wanted to dismantle the armed forces, starting with the nuclear subs but stripping everything to the bone.
Britain had already been borrowing from the IMF but labour wanted to spend even more in a pointless attempt to borrow and spend their way out of debt.
NATO membership would have gone as would the EEC when we defaulted on IMF loans.

In a nutshell - a ruddy mess.

Workers actually having a say in the jobs they work in?

THE HORROR OF IT ALL!

Somehow, I don't think that maintaining the ability to beat up on Argentina makes the UK Great.

I ran a small business.
I worked for crazy hours to get it running
I put my money into the risk of starting a business.
Profits are for me as are any and all decisions regarding the direction the business took.

Workers were there to help me make a profit, not take over and run the thing for their benefit.
Their jobs were they because I risked my money and gave my time so I get to decide what happens with the business.

Sod the workers' rights, their right is to get paid for what they do, nothing else.

 

[Meathead]

Workers actually having a say in the jobs they work in?

THE HORROR OF IT ALL!

Somehow, I don't think that maintaining the ability to beat up on Argentina makes the UK Great.

I think every worker in the Western world at least can quit and find another job. Even given your extreme whining, I can't understand you would say that anyone is forced to work at any job. That has certainly not been my experience.

 

[JoeB131]

[

I ran a small business.
I worked for crazy hours to get it running
I put my money into the risk of starting a business.
Profits are for me as are any and all decisions regarding the direction the business took.

Workers were there to help me make a profit, not take over and run the thing for their benefit.
Their jobs were they because I risked my money and gave my time so I get to decide what happens with the business.

Sod the workers' rights, their right is to get paid for what they do, nothing else.

Last time I checked, Massa Lincoln freed the slaves.

Most businesses I've seen that run well listen to the employees.

It's the ones with attitudes that the managers know it all that usually end up being really funny Dilbert Strips.

 

[JoeB131]

Workers actually having a say in the jobs they work in?

THE HORROR OF IT ALL!

Somehow, I don't think that maintaining the ability to beat up on Argentina makes the UK Great.

I think every worker in the Western world at least can quit and find another job. Even given your extreme whining, I can't understand you would say that anyone is forced to work at any job. That has certainly not been my experience.

Why should quitting be the only redress an employee should have to intolerable conditions?

Frankly, we did have that in the 1990's. The bosses fucking hated it, because when someone quit, they usually had to pay the new guy more and he wasn't half as good.

My only regret was that I didn't learn how bullshit the system was in my first job after I mustered out of the army.

Strong unions, strong worker rights. America had her greatest prosperity when we had these.

 

[Meathead]

Workers actually having a say in the jobs they work in?

THE HORROR OF IT ALL!

Somehow, I don't think that maintaining the ability to beat up on Argentina makes the UK Great.

I think every worker in the Western world at least can quit and find another job. Even given your extreme whining, I can't understand you would say that anyone is forced to work at any job. That has certainly not been my experience.

Why should quitting be the only redress an employee should have to intolerable conditions?

Frankly, we did have that in the 1990's. The bosses fucking hated it, because when someone quit, they usually had to pay the new guy more and he wasn't half as good.

My only regret was that I didn't learn how bullshit the system was in my first job after I mustered out of the army.

Strong unions, strong worker rights. America had her greatest prosperity when we had these.

You don't have to quit. You can walk away pretty much anytime you want! What the hell is wrong with you?! You're not a victim, just an asshole.

 

[JoeB131]

[You don't have to quit. You can walk away pretty much anytime you want! What the hell is wrong with you?! You're not a victim, just an asshole.

Or we can just pass laws requiring employers to act like decent human beings.

Which shouldn't be that much of a burden.

I've seen people fired because they were pregnant, fired because they were gay, fired because they ran up too many medical bills...

Sorry, this notion that we can trust employers to do the right thing is ludicrous. They usually make the most selfish decision, and half the time, it's a bad one.

 

[Meathead]

[You don't have to quit. You can walk away pretty much anytime you want! What the hell is wrong with you?! You're not a victim, just an asshole.

Or we can just pass laws requiring employers to act like decent human beings.

Which shouldn't be that much of a burden.

I've seen people fired because they were pregnant, fired because they were gay, fired because they ran up too many medical bills...

Sorry, this notion that we can trust employers to do the right thing is ludicrous. They usually make the most selfish decision, and half the time, it's a bad one.

You can trust the employer to do what they thinks is best for their business. Trusting them to do more than that is naive and foolish.

Additionally, you can trust employees to do what is best for themselves. Trusting them to do more than that is naive and foolish.

Now, I understand that there are far fewer "worker's paradises" since the era of Reagan and Thatcher. Still, you are free to quit your job or your welfare payments and food stamps and go find somewhere where your skills will be appreciated. Don't wait for Obama to give you everything you think you deserve. It ain't gonna happen.

 

[JoeB131]

[You can trust the employer to do what they thinks is best for their business. Trusting them to do more than that is naive and foolish.

Additionally, you can trust employees to do what is best for themselves. Trusting them to do more than that is naive and foolish.

Wow, guy, you aren't a complete retard. You actually got one right.

Employees DID do what was best for themselves. The GOP ran Mitt "I likes to fire people" Romney and Employees did what was best for themsleves. They voted him down. WHAM!

[
Now, I understand that there are far fewer "worker's paradises" since the era of Reagan and Thatcher. Still, you are free to quit your job or your welfare payments and food stamps and go find somewhere where your skills will be appreciated. Don't wait for Obama to give you everything you think you deserve. It ain't gonna happen.

Guy, you live in a country where people are so depserate to leave that the women are willing to sell themselves as Mail Order Brides. So you really don't have much to say about what works. Whatever you are doing over there, it isn't working.

In fact, good "Czech Mail" and you'll get a whole slew of site of women offering themselves for exactly that.

Save us from THAT kind of management. These women would love to come here, even willing to live under Obama and marry some fat middle aged American.

Just make sure they punch the holes in the boxes before they mail her over or we'll have quite a mess on our hands.

 

[peach174]

You really think the UK is better off for THatcher, most Brits don't think so.

Yes they did, that's why they voted for her 3 times.
She ticked off the socialists, but it had to be done or the UK's economy would have gone bye, bye.

 

[theHawk]

You really think the UK is better off for THatcher, most Brits don't think so.

Absolutely - yes.

Another labour government would have totally destroyed the UK.
The unions would have been in effective control of everything.
Workers' commitees would have had effective control over industry.
Benn wanted to dismantle the armed forces, starting with the nuclear subs but stripping everything to the bone.
Britain had already been borrowing from the IMF but labour wanted to spend even more in a pointless attempt to borrow and spend their way out of debt.
NATO membership would have gone as would the EEC when we defaulted on IMF loans.

In a nutshell - a ruddy mess.

Workers actually having a say in the jobs they work in?

THE HORROR OF IT ALL!

Somehow, I don't think that maintaining the ability to beat up on Argentina makes the UK Great.

Should workers at utility companies be able to "have a say" in whether or not the public gets electricity that day? I think not. They had no right to deny basic services to the people. Holding people hostage isn't bargining for better benefits, its just barbaric.

As for Argentina, lets not forget which country was the aggressor. I know liberals seem to prefer to let socialist thugs have their way with capitalist powers, but most people with common sense think otherwise.

 

[JoeB131]

You really think the UK is better off for THatcher, most Brits don't think so.

Yes they did, that's why they voted for her 3 times.
She ticked off the socialists, but it had to be done or the UK's economy would have gone bye, bye.

And then her own party threw her out as leader.

One would argue that the British economy went bye-bye under her.

 

[Papageorgio]

You really think the UK is better off for THatcher, most Brits don't think so.

Yes they did, that's why they voted for her 3 times.
She ticked off the socialists, but it had to be done or the UK's economy would have gone bye, bye.

And then her own party threw her out as leader.

One would argue that the British economy went bye-bye under her.

Your claim is most Brits don't think the UK is better off for Thatcher, now you are at one could argue. Interesting shift.

 

[Meathead]

[You can trust the employer to do what they thinks is best for their business. Trusting them to do more than that is naive and foolish.

Additionally, you can trust employees to do what is best for themselves. Trusting them to do more than that is naive and foolish.

Wow, guy, you aren't a complete retard. You actually got one right.

Employees DID do what was best for themselves. The GOP ran Mitt "I likes to fire people" Romney and Employees did what was best for themsleves. They voted him down. WHAM!

[
Now, I understand that there are far fewer "worker's paradises" since the era of Reagan and Thatcher. Still, you are free to quit your job or your welfare payments and food stamps and go find somewhere where your skills will be appreciated. Don't wait for Obama to give you everything you think you deserve. It ain't gonna happen.

Guy, you live in a country where people are so depserate to leave that the women are willing to sell themselves as Mail Order Brides. So you really don't have much to say about what works. Whatever you are doing over there, it isn't working.

In fact, good "Czech Mail" and you'll get a whole slew of site of women offering themselves for exactly that.

Save us from THAT kind of management. These women would love to come here, even willing to live under Obama and marry some fat middle aged American.

Just make sure they punch the holes in the boxes before they mail her over or we'll have quite a mess on our hands.

They don't come much stupider there Joe. I live in a country where women do not look like they belong in Chicago's streets or stockyards. The Czech Republic is a visa-waiver country and has been for about 5 years. They have already experienced the worker's paradise you so desire and, except for the 5 or so percent who vote communist, have no will to return to it.

Joe, it is not anyone's fault but your own that you live in a shit hole called Chicago, can't keep a job and find you sexual partners grazing on their lawns. It's a wide world out there. Get yourself a passport and broaden your limited horizons. Learn something of the world and get out of that shit hole. You don't have to be a cow riding asshole the rest of your life.

 

[JoeB131]

[

Should workers at utility companies be able to "have a say" in whether or not the public gets electricity that day? I think not. They had no right to deny basic services to the people. Holding people hostage isn't bargining for better benefits, its just barbaric.

Quite the reverse. If Utility workers were dying or being injured because the public was unwilling to spring for needed safety equipment and such, then, yeah, I think that shutting the system down to make their point would be justified if all other avenues were exhausted.

Now, I am sure that there are people who miss this sort of thing...

but that came to an end in the US and UK because working folks went on strike.

The fact that Thatcher was willing to destroy the UK's coal industry, making it dependent on foreign sources, to punish her political enemies practically makes her a traitor.

[
As for Argentina, lets not forget which country was the aggressor. I know liberals seem to prefer to let socialist thugs have their way with capitalist powers, but most people with common sense think otherwise.

Actually, the aggressor was the United Kingdom, when they took the Islands from Argentina in 1836.

More to the point, the Organization for American States has called for the UK to return the Malvinas for years.

As a more practical thing, a thousand people died in the "Falklands War", more people than actually had the bad fortune to live there. The UK spent a billion dollars. (Mind you, 1982 dollars, which were actualy worth something) to decide who a thousand sheep herders got to live under.

 

[JoeB131]

They don't come much stupider there Joe. I live in a country where women do not look like they belong in Chicago's streets or stockyards. The Czech Republic is a visa-waiver country and has been for about 5 years. They have already experienced the worker's paradise you so desire and, except for the 5 or so percent who vote communist, have no will to return to it.

Joe, it is not anyone's fault but your own that you live in a shit hole called Chicago, can't keep a job and find you sexual partners grazing on their lawns. It's a wide world out there. Get yourself a passport and broaden your limited horizons. Learn something of the world and get out of that shit hole. You don't have to be a cow riding asshole the rest of your life.

Women in Chicago aren't mailing themselves off to other countries...

Women in the country you live in, do. I also understand the Czech sex tourism trade is doing quite well...

Point is, guy, you sold these folks a bill of goods about how big companies were going to make their lives better... and they haven't.

 

[JoeB131]

Yes they did, that's why they voted for her 3 times.
She ticked off the socialists, but it had to be done or the UK's economy would have gone bye, bye.

And then her own party threw her out as leader.

One would argue that the British economy went bye-bye under her.

Your claim is most Brits don't think the UK is better off for Thatcher, now you are at one could argue. Interesting shift.

Is this more of your silly sophistry, because I really don't have time for it this morning.

Opinion on Margaret Thatcher remains divided after her death, poll finds | Politics | guardian.co.uk

The defining Thatcherite mission of taking on trade union power was always controversial, but on balance it remains popular too: by 50% to 34% it is deemed to have worked. The independent nuclear deterrent is another battle which the prime minister who pushed ahead with Trident is deemed to have won, by 40% to 28%.

Beyond this, however, the Thatcher prospectus holds less appeal today. Despite suggestions from today's Tory backbench that conflicts with the continent lead to popularity at home, only 38% of voters look back and judge that Thatcher's habit of picking fights with Europe can be said to have worked, as against 39% who say it did not.

On the economic front, the record is mixed – but mostly negative. Her overall shakeup of the tax system splits the country down the middle – the 38% who support the Thatcherite move to increase VAT in order to fund income tax cuts are matched by 38% who say this fiscal switch didn't work.
It's a different story at the top end, however. The sweeping 1980s cuts to top tax rates were sold as unleashing the energy of wealth creators, but they are today judged to have failed by a substantial 47% to 28% margin.

And amid a fresh slump even deeper than that of the 1980s, the Thatcherite macroeconomic mix – namely, putting lower inflation first, and considering unemployment only second – is rejected, by a 41% to 33% margin.

Even more striking is the retrospective rejection of the archetypal institutional reform, the privatisation of utilities such as gas and water – by 49% to 35% Britons say this did not work. Last, and perhaps least surprising, there is the flagship on which Thatcher went down – the poll tax, or more properly the community charge. It is deemed a retrospective failure by a 70% to 14% margin.

 

[Foxfyre]

Workers actually having a say in the jobs they work in?

THE HORROR OF IT ALL!

Somehow, I don't think that maintaining the ability to beat up on Argentina makes the UK Great.

I think every worker in the Western world at least can quit and find another job. Even given your extreme whining, I can't understand you would say that anyone is forced to work at any job. That has certainly not been my experience.

Why should quitting be the only redress an employee should have to intolerable conditions?

Frankly, we did have that in the 1990's. The bosses fucking hated it, because when someone quit, they usually had to pay the new guy more and he wasn't half as good.

My only regret was that I didn't learn how bullshit the system was in my first job after I mustered out of the army.

Strong unions, strong worker rights. America had her greatest prosperity when we had these.

The worker does not have to make a profit. The worker's interest is in earning a wage doing work that doesn't suck in conditions that don't suck. In the past unions were the voice of the worker to improve working conditions, wages, and address safety issues to EVERYBODY's advantage including the employer.

But when the unions no longer are interested in working with an employer but rather assume a right to whatever the employer has with no concern for consequences, the unions become thugs, tyrants, and destructive to the process.

The worker does not put his savings and working capital at risk in a new venture. The worker does not lose anything but future earnings if a business goes under. It is the employer who is responsible for the infrastructure, overhead, liability risks, insurance, meeting whatever requirements and regulations are imposed by layers of government, taxes, and netting enough profit to provide a living for himself as well as sustain, expand, and grow the business. And the employer loses far more than future earnings if the business fails. He loses his investment which is sometimes everything he has.

The worker is worth only as much to the employer as the profit his labor provides to the employer. The worker's labor is a commodity to be sold to the highest bidder and is negotiated just as is the cost of inputs and raw materials and other necessary costs of doing business.

When the unions demand more from a business that is already losing money, as was the case in the U.K., the obvious remedy is to close the business. And most especially when the government owned those businesses, it was the only recourse to get the losses off the backs of the taxpayers who were benefiting not at all but were being seriously hurt by the economy that was being sucked dry by the unions.

 

[Meathead]

Women in Chicago aren't mailing themselves off to other countries...

Women in the country you live in, do. I also understand the Czech sex tourism trade is doing quite well...

Point is, guy, you sold these folks a bill of goods about how big companies were going to make their lives better... and they haven't.

I think you may be thinking of the Ukraine and Russia. But anyway, women in Chicago would need to use surface mail to send themselves off, I mean who could afford flying that kind of tonnage around. After all, there's only one who they can haul around on the Air Force 1 747s.

 

[JoeB131]

[

The worker does not have to make a profit. The worker's interest is in earning a wage doing work that doesn't suck in conditions that don't suck. In the past unions were the voice of the worker to improve working conditions, wages, and address safety issues to EVERYBODY's advantage including the employer.

But when the unions no longer are interested in working with an employer but rather assume a right to whatever the employer has with no concern for consequences, the unions become thugs, tyrants, and destructive to the process.

The worker does not put his savings and working capital at risk in a new venture. The worker does not lose anything but future earnings if a business goes under. It is the employer who is responsible for the infrastructure, overhead, liability risks, insurance,....

I've seen too much bad behavior by employers to break out the violins for them.

The country worked a lot better when we had strong unions. That was before the wealthy bought our government and got Free Trade and Right to Work and all the other stupidity.

"The problem with Capitalism is Capitalists... they're too damned greedy"- Herbert Hoover.


Exactly.

 

[JoeB131]

Women in Chicago aren't mailing themselves off to other countries...

Women in the country you live in, do. I also understand the Czech sex tourism trade is doing quite well...

Point is, guy, you sold these folks a bill of goods about how big companies were going to make their lives better... and they haven't.

I think you may be thinking of the Ukraine and Russia. But anyway, women in Chicago would need to use surface mail to send themselves off, I mean who could afford flying that kind of tonnage around. After all, there's only one who they can haul around on the Air Force 1 747s.

Okay, guy, why do I get the feeling you've never been here, or you wouldn't be talking that kind of shit.

For the record, though..people are moving TO Chicago, not away from it...

U-Haul Ranks Pittsburgh as 2012 Top U.S. Growth City -- PHOENIX, April 12, 2013 /PRNewswire/ --