Margaret thatcher died

[Esmeralda]

Oi! Don't speak for me.

I'm a Left leaning female British voter (not currently, I've moved a countries since I last legally voted there). I was born end of 1980 and family lost work due to Thatcher. Can't say I hate her though. Some of the mines should have been closed, some should have been modernized. If the Union Leaders had been reasonable, something could have been worked out. Unions weren't listening to their own members let alone to the will of the nation. I blame the Union Leaders for shutting down British manufacturing. The outcome, was that Thatcher's gov made policies that hurt the working classes.

In hindsight, the choices were down to bankrupting the country or closing down Britain's manufacturing. There should have been more options, but neither side was willing to talk. Better to cut off a rotting limb than to allow it to kill the tree. Unfortunate that is came down to that. The Unions shouldn't have driven England to such desperate measures.

She hurt a lot of people. So did the Unions. Can't say I'm too fond of either of them. There's a lot more I could say, but I'll leave it there.

I have a feeling that most of the people in this thread, especially those who are singing her praises, have little to no idea about British politics or Thatcher's term as Prime Minister. They know she was a conservative and she liked Ronald Reagan, that's probably about all.

Odd, I am flat out sure that those deriding her are classless chavs and on these threads ignorant Americans liberals who have no idea what Britain was like in the 1970s.

Well, I was there in the 1970s, so I know what it was like. Were you there?

Many do not seem to remember her with fondness.

'Ding Dong! The Witch Is Dead' closer to number one spot as it reaches top five following Margaret Thatcher's death.

'Ding Dong! The Witch Is Dead' closer to number one spot as it reaches top five following Margaret Thatcher's death - News - Music - The Independent

 

[Meathead]

I have a feeling that most of the people in this thread, especially those who are singing her praises, have little to no idea about British politics or Thatcher's term as Prime Minister. They know she was a conservative and she liked Ronald Reagan, that's probably about all.

Odd, I am flat out sure that those deriding her are classless chavs and on these threads ignorant Americans liberals who have no idea what Britain was like in the 1970s.

Well, I was there in the 1970s, so I know what it was like. Were you there?

Many do not seem to remember her with fondness.

'Ding Dong! The Witch Is Dead' closer to number one spot as it reaches top five following Margaret Thatcher's death.

'Ding Dong! The Witch Is Dead' closer to number one spot as it reaches top five following Margaret Thatcher's death - News - Music - The Independent

Were you coal mining in Wales?

 

[Expat]

Okay wading back in here since the worst of the hatemongering seems to have died down. I do appreciate your post Expat.

The one thing that makes true reform and correcting the worst of the worst so difficult is that it cannot be done without negative consequences for some. That is the one thing that makes any kind of sensible policy almost impossible to achieve in this country. If we do THAT it hurts THESE. Fix THIS and it causes THAT. We simply cannot get around it. We can't fix the tax code, for instance, because 50% of Americans now pay little or no federal taxes and nobody wants to anger that many voters by requiring them to get back into the process.

So Maggie probably made as many enemies as she made friends in her determination to fix the worst of what was ailing the U.K. Does it make her evil that she was willing to anger people, even hurt some people, in order to eventually make it better for all? That she based her decisions on conviction and principle rather than politics? That is a reasonable debate to have.

It's easy to point out a Leader's mistakes in hindsight, especially considering who she was dealing with. But she made changes more damaging than necessary. Some mines really did need to be shut down. Modernizing the mines was bound to put some out of work. That's life. But the UK had to import Coal when it was standing on Coal after it closed the mines down. You see the problem right?

 

[Meathead]

Okay wading back in here since the worst of the hatemongering seems to have died down. I do appreciate your post Expat.

The one thing that makes true reform and correcting the worst of the worst so difficult is that it cannot be done without negative consequences for some. That is the one thing that makes any kind of sensible policy almost impossible to achieve in this country. If we do THAT it hurts THESE. Fix THIS and it causes THAT. We simply cannot get around it. We can't fix the tax code, for instance, because 50% of Americans now pay little or no federal taxes and nobody wants to anger that many voters by requiring them to get back into the process.

So Maggie probably made as many enemies as she made friends in her determination to fix the worst of what was ailing the U.K. Does it make her evil that she was willing to anger people, even hurt some people, in order to eventually make it better for all? That she based her decisions on conviction and principle rather than politics? That is a reasonable debate to have.

It's easy to point out a Leader's mistakes in hindsight, especially considering who she was dealing with. But she made changes more damaging than necessary. Some mines really did need to be shut down. Modernizing the mines was bound to put some out of work. That's life. But the UK had to import Coal when it was standing on Coal after it closed the mines down. You see the problem right?

If you can import coal at a cheaper price, I don't see the problem. I see a problem asking taxpayers to subsidize overpriced products to mollify unions.

 

[Expat]

If you can import coal at a cheaper price, I don't see the problem. I see a problem asking taxpayers to subsidize overpriced products to mollify unions.

If the Union Leaders had stopped being self-serving assholes and Thatcher had given a damn about the communities, Coal would have been profitable within the UK and wouldn't have had to ship it.

Union Leaders and Thatcher = EPIC FAIL

 

[Foxfyre]

Okay wading back in here since the worst of the hatemongering seems to have died down. I do appreciate your post Expat.

The one thing that makes true reform and correcting the worst of the worst so difficult is that it cannot be done without negative consequences for some. That is the one thing that makes any kind of sensible policy almost impossible to achieve in this country. If we do THAT it hurts THESE. Fix THIS and it causes THAT. We simply cannot get around it. We can't fix the tax code, for instance, because 50% of Americans now pay little or no federal taxes and nobody wants to anger that many voters by requiring them to get back into the process.

So Maggie probably made as many enemies as she made friends in her determination to fix the worst of what was ailing the U.K. Does it make her evil that she was willing to anger people, even hurt some people, in order to eventually make it better for all? That she based her decisions on conviction and principle rather than politics? That is a reasonable debate to have.

It's easy to point out a Leader's mistakes in hindsight, especially considering who she was dealing with. But she made changes more damaging than necessary. Some mines really did need to be shut down. Modernizing the mines was bound to put some out of work. That's life. But the UK had to import Coal when it was standing on Coal after it closed the mines down. You see the problem right?

If you can import coal at a cheaper price, I don't see the problem. I see a problem asking taxpayers to subsidize overpriced products to mollify unions.

There is that, even knowing that those miners were hard working, decent people who didn't deserve to lose their jobs. But if they had not, and everything had continued as it was, many more would not have had jobs. It is like taking bitter medicine to correct a condition that would be far more dangerous and unpleasant for us.

The best policies are those that encourage commerce and industry to operate here, build wealth here, provide a good living for those who want to work here. Socialism destroys the wealth building incentive so that everybody does with less with little hope of significantly improving their condition in life. And many people are eventually put out of work anyway or are forced to work for bare subsistance.

'Thatcherism' wasn't perfect as none of us will ever be perfect But it so improved what almost certainly would have been n the U.K., that those with the grace and intelligence to understand do appreciate most of what she did and do hold her in their respect, however grudging.

 

[Katzndogz]

The anti Thatcherism seems to be born of two teachers who organized the whole thing.

Margaret Thatcher dead: Teachers of hatred who helped organise Maggie 'death parties' | Mail Online

Two teachers are today unmasked as key architects of the vile Thatcher ‘death parties’.
One is employed at Labour leader Ed Miliband’s old school and has worked with the youngest and most impressionable pupils there, while the other teaches troubled and vulnerable children.
Yet both were behind disgraceful ‘celebrations’ to mark the passing of Baroness Thatcher.

 

[Katzndogz]

It's easy to point out a Leader's mistakes in hindsight, especially considering who she was dealing with. But she made changes more damaging than necessary. Some mines really did need to be shut down. Modernizing the mines was bound to put some out of work. That's life. But the UK had to import Coal when it was standing on Coal after it closed the mines down. You see the problem right?

If you can import coal at a cheaper price, I don't see the problem. I see a problem asking taxpayers to subsidize overpriced products to mollify unions.

There is that, even knowing that those miners were hard working, decent people who didn't deserve to lose their jobs. But if they had not, and everything had continued as it was, many more would not have had jobs. It is like taking bitter medicine to correct a condition that would be far more dangerous and unpleasant for us.

The best policies are those that encourage commerce and industry to operate here, build wealth here, provide a good living for those who want to work here. Socialism destroys the wealth building incentive so that everybody does with less with little hope of significantly improving their condition in life. And many people are eventually put out of work anyway or are forced to work for bare subsistance.

'Thatcherism' wasn't perfect as none of us will ever be perfect But it so improved what almost certainly would have been n the U.K., that those with the grace and intelligence to understand do appreciate most of what she did and do hold her in their respect, however grudging.

The unions stopped being hard working people who didn't deserve to lose their jobs when they started doing their jobs three days a week and protesting for more benefits the other four.

 

[Expat]

The best policies are those that encourage commerce and industry to operate here, build wealth here, provide a good living for those who want to work here.

This is what I would have preferred happen. Even though a lot of people still would have lost their jobs, entire communities wouldn't have been wiped out. It might not have directly impacted my own family. But it would have been far more sensible. I can see the US losing their manufacturing industry, just like the UK. This is something you don't want to emulate from Thatcher. She threw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Expat]

The unions stopped being hard working people who didn't deserve to lose their jobs when they started doing their jobs three days a week and protesting for more benefits the other four.

Excuse me? Members who didn't want to strike, who wanted to work were bullied. You do realize not everything was even voted on? Of course, if you want to take on men that will break your legs and threaten your family for showing up at work, be my guest.

 

[Foxfyre]

If you can import coal at a cheaper price, I don't see the problem. I see a problem asking taxpayers to subsidize overpriced products to mollify unions.

There is that, even knowing that those miners were hard working, decent people who didn't deserve to lose their jobs. But if they had not, and everything had continued as it was, many more would not have had jobs. It is like taking bitter medicine to correct a condition that would be far more dangerous and unpleasant for us.

The best policies are those that encourage commerce and industry to operate here, build wealth here, provide a good living for those who want to work here. Socialism destroys the wealth building incentive so that everybody does with less with little hope of significantly improving their condition in life. And many people are eventually put out of work anyway or are forced to work for bare subsistance.

'Thatcherism' wasn't perfect as none of us will ever be perfect But it so improved what almost certainly would have been n the U.K., that those with the grace and intelligence to understand do appreciate most of what she did and do hold her in their respect, however grudging.

The unions stopped being hard working people who didn't deserve to lose their jobs when they started doing their jobs three days a week and protesting for more benefits the other four.

I'm just acknowledging that all the workers didn't fall into that category.

The point is that when government gets off track and/or becomes oppressive and destructive to the people, people get hurt. But to fix the problems in government is going to be painful and unsettling to others. Maggie Thatcher understood that and was willing to uncur the wrath of those who were negatively affected by the reforms in favor of a greater principle of benefit to all. And, as it turned out, she was far more right than she was wrong.

The leftists who WANT the big, authoritative, socialist nanny state of course do not want to applaud her because she promoted principles that have proved effective in improving the status and condition of far more people than any socialist system ever could.

But as the NYT article said, others, even though they don't share her philosophy, are honest enough to admit that she did turn many things around and improved many things and, when she stepped down, she left a much stronger, more prosperous, more viable, and more respected UK than the one she inherited.

 

[Meathead]

The best policies are those that encourage commerce and industry to operate here, build wealth here, provide a good living for those who want to work here.

This is what I would have preferred happen. Even though a lot of people still would have lost their jobs, entire communities wouldn't have been wiped out. It might not have directly impacted my own family. But it would have been far more sensible. I can see the US losing their manufacturing industry, just like the UK. This is something you don't want to emulate from Thatcher. She threw the baby out with the bathwater.

The unions overplayed their hand. Maggie had the balls to do what needed to be done where others had failed. It wasn't a baby, they were adults demanding that the taxpayers support them. They lost and Thatcher(and Britain) won with the overwhelming support of the British people

 

[Katzndogz]

The unions stopped being hard working people who didn't deserve to lose their jobs when they started doing their jobs three days a week and protesting for more benefits the other four.

Excuse me? Members who didn't want to strike, who wanted to work were bullied. You do realize not everything was even voted on? Of course, if you want to take on men that will break your legs and threaten your family for showing up at work, be my guest.

You misunderstand me. I know quite well how unions operate.

 

[Foxfyre]

The best policies are those that encourage commerce and industry to operate here, build wealth here, provide a good living for those who want to work here.

This is what I would have preferred happen. Even though a lot of people still would have lost their jobs, entire communities wouldn't have been wiped out. It might not have directly impacted my own family. But it would have been far more sensible. I can see the US losing their manufacturing industry, just like the UK. This is something you don't want to emulate from Thatcher. She threw the baby out with the bathwater.

The unions overplayed their hand. Maggie had the balls to do what needed to be done where others had failed. It wasn't a baby, they were adults demanding that the taxpayers support them. They lost and Thatcher(and Britain) won with the overwhelming support of the British people

That's the way I read it no matter whose history I am reading. If the unions had been willing to compromise in any way, the bitter pill would have been much easier to swallow and far fewer people would have gotten hurt. But they were not, and the process to break a crippling malignancy that was destroying the U.K. was thus far more draconian than it had to be.

The fact is, had Thatcher not done that, the results would likely have been the same or worse, but would have taken far longer. And meanwhile others would have been far more severely hurt in the process.

When governments screw up, somebody will get hurt no matter what. So you have to pick the side in which the fewest people get hurt and that has the best chance to make things better for everybody.

 

[Expat]

The unions overplayed their hand. Maggie had the balls to do what needed to be done where others had failed. It wasn't a baby, they were adults demanding that the taxpayers support them. They lost and Thatcher(and Britain) won with the overwhelming support of the British people

The men were the bathwater. The mines were the baby. Again, better to close down the mines than see the UK bankrupt. Shame the baby got thrown out with the bathwater.

 

[Expat]

You misunderstand me. I know quite well how unions operate.

So why accuse the mine workers of not being hard workers? What would you have them do?

 

[boedicca]

You misunderstand me. I know quite well how unions operate.

So why accuse the mine workers of not being hard workers? What would you have them do?

How about not engaging in strikes designed to keep power plants from working, for a start?

 

[Expat]

When governments screw up, somebody will get hurt no matter what. So you have to pick the side in which the fewest people get hurt and that has the best chance to make things better for everybody.

I've heard Obama (If I've understood this right.) wants to shut down coal in the US and replace it with renewable energy sources. Shutting down an industry for a good cause, doesn't entirely justify hurting that many people. Stopping Unions run amok or saving the environment, people aren't going to forgive and forget.

 

[Expat]

You misunderstand me. I know quite well how unions operate.

So why accuse the mine workers of not being hard workers? What would you have them do?

How about not engaging in strikes designed to keep power plants from working, for a start?

I already explained this. The Unions were powerful and corrupt. You cross the picket line and the people striking know your face. Hopefully, the worst that happens is your local Union rep breaks your legs. And you assume Union members voted to strike.

 

[Foxfyre]

When governments screw up, somebody will get hurt no matter what. So you have to pick the side in which the fewest people get hurt and that has the best chance to make things better for everybody.

I've heard Obama (If I've understood this right.) wants to shut down coal in the US and replace it with renewable energy sources. Shutting down an industry for a good cause, doesn't entirely justify hurting that many people. Stopping Unions run amok or saving the environment, people aren't going to forgive and forget.

Coal, however, is not a problem for anybody but environmental religionists who believe all fossil fuels to be evil. To promote development of cleaner ways to use coal while working on making other forms of energy more viable would be a worthy goal. To shut down our most plentiful and cheapest form of energy to chase a hypothetical future that is yet unproven and not viable is not justifiable.

That is not what Thatcher did. She cut out a malignancy in the U.K. that was threatening to bring the entire nation down. That would have hurt everybody, including the coal miners. All she did was sell off the mines that her predecessors had imprudently and destructively nationalized to create the unsustainable situation that existed. Had the unions been willing to work out a compromise to have made that unnecessary, I have every reason to believe Thatcher would have chosen that better situation. It was the unions who refused to compromise that created the draconian soluton that was all that was left to her.