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That six year old who was gunned down this weekend at the Garlic Festival had the right to life, too. So do the 10,000 Americans murdered every year by someone else's gun. This argument is not going to get you anywhere.Isn't there something about "natural rights" like life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? I don't know. I'm not a philosopher.No, it's not an opinion, Pismoe.--------------------------------------------------------- in the USA you can own any number of cars , motorcycles or guns that you like . And that being said , only one gun at a time can be used at a time OldLady . And your claim that the Constitution was DESIGNED to change with the times is your OPINION OldLady .
Article 5
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
Do you believe we have inalienable rights or only the rights "bestowed" upon us by the government?
And you don't realize that you position is against the natural right of self preservation do you?
I firearm is the single most effective tool for self defense.
The debate is rather simple. If more guns made us safer we would have the lowest homicide rate in the world. Instead ours is 4-5x higher than countries with strong gun control. We also have regular mass shootings, law enforcement shoots hundreds, law enforcement is shot and killed weekly, hundreds die each year in gun accidents... the effect of too many guns is clear, and not good.but this is also why you're not likely to get that debate or discussion from gun owners. they've met far too many who won't listen to the mechanics behind their fears and simply expand their fears instead.I think a lot of people are scared, frustrated, and heartbroken from the horrendous gun violence that happens in this country and they just want to do something to try and limit the carnage. Regulating guns is something g that makes sense to them so that’s what they push because guns scare them. Others feel protected by them and want to defend their rights to carry. It’s a very heated and emotional debate which needs more understanding and compassion like most political issuesthen in this case i'm speaking to the liberals i have seen that when you try to tell them functionally there is no difference between the AR-15 and a browning longtrac semi-automatic, they refuse to go "wow, i misunderstood that weapon" and instead say "then semi-automatics needs to go also".That’s a good question. I’d say by definition classic liberals and conservatives both of whom support individual freedoms support less gun control while big government progressives fight for more gun control. You will find people all over the “Left” that supports gun rights, but Ideologically speaking progressives would be the group pushing for government regulation. Although I’d argue that most people fall all over the spectrum depending on the issuegreat. so i can understand and be sure - are you saying the stance of the left is NOT coming after guns?
i don't like labels also, but when a trait is far too common to one side, it can and will get referenced. if you need specific examples of the left being full of shit, holler. i can find CNN with animated gifs showing rocket launchers on AR15's and gyrating like giant dildo. i can show you the left in colorado who is after banning high capacity mags and think they are "single use". i can show you people on "the left" who say we're not coming after guns and then their making statements that they are.
while i agree generalities can be and are used in debates far too often, that doesn't mean they're 100% wrong to do or use.
or would you disagree? if so, then fine. i'll just watch out for any stereotypes from you and react accordingly.
i have *never* heard someone go "wow, i was wrong about that rifle" and to a man/woman/child i've discussed this with, the more they learn the less they want to know and the more they want to control. i don't doubt there are those on the left who are NOT like this, i've just not met one in conversation yet.
when you can think of a good way to rationalize with someone who is willing to keep their views alive despite learning to the contrary, let me know and i'll help get this discussion going.
i saw my 1 post of idiot357 for the year. i just can't handle the terminally stupid in much quantity anymore.The debate is rather simple. If more guns made us safer we would have the lowest homicide rate in the world. Instead ours is 4-5x higher than countries with strong gun control. We also have regular mass shootings, law enforcement shoots hundreds, law enforcement is shot and killed weekly, hundreds die each year in gun accidents... the effect of too many guns is clear, and not good.but this is also why you're not likely to get that debate or discussion from gun owners. they've met far too many who won't listen to the mechanics behind their fears and simply expand their fears instead.I think a lot of people are scared, frustrated, and heartbroken from the horrendous gun violence that happens in this country and they just want to do something to try and limit the carnage. Regulating guns is something g that makes sense to them so that’s what they push because guns scare them. Others feel protected by them and want to defend their rights to carry. It’s a very heated and emotional debate which needs more understanding and compassion like most political issuesthen in this case i'm speaking to the liberals i have seen that when you try to tell them functionally there is no difference between the AR-15 and a browning longtrac semi-automatic, they refuse to go "wow, i misunderstood that weapon" and instead say "then semi-automatics needs to go also".That’s a good question. I’d say by definition classic liberals and conservatives both of whom support individual freedoms support less gun control while big government progressives fight for more gun control. You will find people all over the “Left” that supports gun rights, but Ideologically speaking progressives would be the group pushing for government regulation. Although I’d argue that most people fall all over the spectrum depending on the issue
i have *never* heard someone go "wow, i was wrong about that rifle" and to a man/woman/child i've discussed this with, the more they learn the less they want to know and the more they want to control. i don't doubt there are those on the left who are NOT like this, i've just not met one in conversation yet.
when you can think of a good way to rationalize with someone who is willing to keep their views alive despite learning to the contrary, let me know and i'll help get this discussion going.
guns alone do not drive the murder rate
No, but you don't see people "protecting" themselves from melanoma by spending MORE time in the sun. What we need is more good guys with guns? No gun free zones?Why do you value the freedom to quickly become a mass killer? What about freedom to live?---------------------------------------- its about FREEDOM and not about SAFETY Brian .The debate is rather simple. If more guns made us safer we would have the lowest homicide rate in the world. Instead ours is 4-5x higher than countries with strong gun control. We also have regular mass shootings, law enforcement shoots hundreds, law enforcement is shot and killed weekly, hundreds die each year in gun accidents... the effect of too many guns is clear, and not good.
1.1 million Americans each year live because they have the ability to own and carry guns.
In 2018 there were 12 mass public shootings, 93 killed. Cars killed over 38,000, drowning killed over 3,500....
The numbers don't support you.
7,000 people each year die of melanoma, should America seek to destroy the sun?
Our laws are weak only because they are not enforcedWeak gun laws made it so easy.Yes with strong gun control criminals choose not to. Good gun control argument.Due to always having low gun ownership rates.And you lie with your number.....those countries always had low murder rates due to cultural factors....World Wars and their impact on their societies.....before they banned and confiscated guns.......after banning guns their gun murder rates did not change....so your theory is wrong.
Wrong...culture.....their criminals do not choose to use their illegal guns to commit murder......ours do. Britain can't stop the flood of illegal guns into their country, yet their criminals don't commit murder as often...yet...but they are building up to it...
Police struggle to stop flood of firearms into UK
Police and border officials are struggling to stop a rising supply of illegal firearms being smuggled into Britain, a senior police chief has warned.
Chief constable Andy Cooke, the national police lead for serious and organised crime, said law enforcement had seen an increased supply of guns over the past year, and feared that it would continue in 2019
The Guardian has learned that the situation is so serious that the National Crime Agency has taken the rare step of using its legal powers to direct every single police force to step up the fight against illegal guns.
The NCA has used tasking powers to direct greater intelligence about firearms to be gathered by all 43 forces in England and Wales.
Another senior law enforcement official said that “new and clean” weapons were now being used in the majority of shootings, as opposed to guns once being so difficult to obtain that they would be “rented out” to be used in multiple crimes.
Cooke, the Merseyside chief constable, told the Guardian: “We in law enforcement expect the rise in new firearms to continue. We are doing all we can. We are not in a position to stop it anytime soon.
“Law enforcement is more joined up now than before, but the scale of the problem is such that despite a number of excellent firearms seizures, I expect the rise in supply to be a continuing issue.”
The increasing supply of guns belies problems with UK border security and innovations by organised crime gangs. Smugglers have increasingly found new ways and innovative routes to get guns past border defences.
Cooke said that the dynamics of the streets of British cities had changed and that criminals were more willing to use guns: “If they bring them in people will buy them. It’s a kudos thing for organised criminals.”
Simon Brough, head of firearms at the NCA, said: “The majority of guns being used are new, clean firearms ... which indicates a relatively fluid supply.”
He said shotguns were 40% of the total, with an increase in burglaries to try and steal them.
Handguns are the next biggest category, most often smuggled in from overseas, with ferry ports such as Dover being a popular entry point into the UK for organised crime groups:
“We’re doing a lot to fight back against it,” Brough said, adding that compared to other European countries, the availability in the UK was relatively lower.
==========
Crime will continue to rise until us bobbies are released from the shackles of the PC police
The national crime figures released this week confirmed what my colleagues and I have known for some time. Violent crime is out of control and criminals now see certain cities and towns across the country as places where they can act with impunity.
This is not just about gangland battles in the likes of Brixton or Tottenham. What we are facing is a national crisis, fast spreading across the provinces.
In the West Midlands, for example, we had a murder rate last year on a par with that of London. Gun crime in our region is running at similarly high levels and violent thugs in my area have developed a
You can't be this ignorant.
Well, unless you are.
The man broke the law when he drove across the border with the weapon he bought in Nevada.
He then broke the law every day he was in possession of that weapon in California.
Do you think he cared?
Because the latest shooter was law abiding until he wasn't. How come you can't grasp that?Why do you want to make law abiding people out to be the bad guys here?
No, but you don't see people "protecting" themselves from melanoma by spending MORE time in the sun. What we need is more good guys with guns? No gun free zones?Why do you value the freedom to quickly become a mass killer? What about freedom to live?---------------------------------------- its about FREEDOM and not about SAFETY Brian .
1.1 million Americans each year live because they have the ability to own and carry guns.
In 2018 there were 12 mass public shootings, 93 killed. Cars killed over 38,000, drowning killed over 3,500....
The numbers don't support you.
7,000 people each year die of melanoma, should America seek to destroy the sun?
There are violent animals in this country and they don't need guns to do a lot of damage.
A gun is the single best tool to defend yourself or your loved ones from the violent pieces of shit we let roam the streets
No, but you don't see people "protecting" themselves from melanoma by spending MORE time in the sun. What we need is more good guys with guns? No gun free zones?Why do you value the freedom to quickly become a mass killer? What about freedom to live?
1.1 million Americans each year live because they have the ability to own and carry guns.
In 2018 there were 12 mass public shootings, 93 killed. Cars killed over 38,000, drowning killed over 3,500....
The numbers don't support you.
7,000 people each year die of melanoma, should America seek to destroy the sun?
There are violent animals in this country and they don't need guns to do a lot of damage.
A gun is the single best tool to defend yourself or your loved ones from the violent pieces of shit we let roam the streets
This is exactly true. A handgun is an equalizer. If all guns were somehow confiscated and destroyed magically, there are numerous bad ass characters that don't knead a gun to cause damage. The number of knife attacks in England is rising at an exponential rate. A guy I know went to prison for 8 years for damage to someone's face with a hammer.
A firearm can defend a law abider in a knife fight as well as a hammer fight.
------------------------------------- I'm thinking that sooner or later the USA will be moving from the 'innocent till proven guilty standard' to the standard of 'guilty till proven innocent standard ' .Because the latest shooter was law abiding until he wasn't. How come you can't grasp that?Why do you want to make law abiding people out to be the bad guys here?
Here we go again with the everyone is just a criminal waiting to commit a crime. How many times do you have to be told that we don't hold innocent people responsible for the crimes other people commit?
Tell me what crimes can I convict you of that you haven't committed yet?
That does seem to be the goal------------------------------------- I'm thinking that sooner or later the USA will be moving from the 'innocent till proven guilty standard' to the standard of 'guilty till proven innocent standard ' .Because the latest shooter was law abiding until he wasn't. How come you can't grasp that?Why do you want to make law abiding people out to be the bad guys here?
Here we go again with the everyone is just a criminal waiting to commit a crime. How many times do you have to be told that we don't hold innocent people responsible for the crimes other people commit?
Tell me what crimes can I convict you of that you haven't committed yet?
and that's the point. we have a ton of laws and the problem continues to grow. you'd think that if passing laws was the answer, all the laws we have passed to date would have slowed this down. it hasn't really, has it? violent gun crime rises and falls through the decades without the laws having much of an impact at all.Our laws are weak only because they are not enforcedWeak gun laws made it so easy.Yes with strong gun control criminals choose not to. Good gun control argument.Due to always having low gun ownership rates.
Wrong...culture.....their criminals do not choose to use their illegal guns to commit murder......ours do. Britain can't stop the flood of illegal guns into their country, yet their criminals don't commit murder as often...yet...but they are building up to it...
Police struggle to stop flood of firearms into UK
Police and border officials are struggling to stop a rising supply of illegal firearms being smuggled into Britain, a senior police chief has warned.
Chief constable Andy Cooke, the national police lead for serious and organised crime, said law enforcement had seen an increased supply of guns over the past year, and feared that it would continue in 2019
The Guardian has learned that the situation is so serious that the National Crime Agency has taken the rare step of using its legal powers to direct every single police force to step up the fight against illegal guns.
The NCA has used tasking powers to direct greater intelligence about firearms to be gathered by all 43 forces in England and Wales.
Another senior law enforcement official said that “new and clean” weapons were now being used in the majority of shootings, as opposed to guns once being so difficult to obtain that they would be “rented out” to be used in multiple crimes.
Cooke, the Merseyside chief constable, told the Guardian: “We in law enforcement expect the rise in new firearms to continue. We are doing all we can. We are not in a position to stop it anytime soon.
“Law enforcement is more joined up now than before, but the scale of the problem is such that despite a number of excellent firearms seizures, I expect the rise in supply to be a continuing issue.”
The increasing supply of guns belies problems with UK border security and innovations by organised crime gangs. Smugglers have increasingly found new ways and innovative routes to get guns past border defences.
Cooke said that the dynamics of the streets of British cities had changed and that criminals were more willing to use guns: “If they bring them in people will buy them. It’s a kudos thing for organised criminals.”
Simon Brough, head of firearms at the NCA, said: “The majority of guns being used are new, clean firearms ... which indicates a relatively fluid supply.”
He said shotguns were 40% of the total, with an increase in burglaries to try and steal them.
Handguns are the next biggest category, most often smuggled in from overseas, with ferry ports such as Dover being a popular entry point into the UK for organised crime groups:
“We’re doing a lot to fight back against it,” Brough said, adding that compared to other European countries, the availability in the UK was relatively lower.
==========
Crime will continue to rise until us bobbies are released from the shackles of the PC police
The national crime figures released this week confirmed what my colleagues and I have known for some time. Violent crime is out of control and criminals now see certain cities and towns across the country as places where they can act with impunity.
This is not just about gangland battles in the likes of Brixton or Tottenham. What we are facing is a national crisis, fast spreading across the provinces.
In the West Midlands, for example, we had a murder rate last year on a par with that of London. Gun crime in our region is running at similarly high levels and violent thugs in my area have developed a
You can't be this ignorant.
Well, unless you are.
The man broke the law when he drove across the border with the weapon he bought in Nevada.
He then broke the law every day he was in possession of that weapon in California.
Do you think he cared?
When they are enforced they actually work
Yes. He's rejecting the relevance of both from what I could comprehend of his point, after introducing population into the argument. Denying everything but exceptionalism.You do understand that "population size" and "per capita" are quite different metrics, no?
Perhaps among developed nations, after all, Somalia seems reasonably tolerant of violent solutions.the US is unique in its tolerance and even its approval, of violent solutions.
Are you saying he was a criminal before he committed a crime? That seems to be the gist of your remarks. Otherwise he was a law abiding gun owner until he wasn't.Here we go again with the everyone is just a criminal waiting to commit a crime. How many times do you have to be told that we don't hold innocent people responsible for the crimes other people commit?
They certainly drive the firearms homicide rate.guns alone do not drive the murder rate
Well, that and they think you're a raving loony thinking an AR15 is going to take back power from a militarised government.This is why we cannot allow the dems into power.
With all that is being exposed, we see this is exactly what the Obama cabal had planned.
The leftists laugh at us when we state the number one reason for the 2nd amendment is so the people can take back their power from a corrupt government.
They just don't see how close it is.
They certainly drive the firearms homicide rate.guns alone do not drive the murder rate
That ship has sailed...in the media..and on this forum. In fact, other than the courts, guilty until proven innocent is the standard the police use, as well. To most, Suspect means Guilty.------------------------------------- I'm thinking that sooner or later the USA will be moving from the 'innocent till proven guilty standard' to the standard of 'guilty till proven innocent standard ' .Because the latest shooter was law abiding until he wasn't. How come you can't grasp that?Why do you want to make law abiding people out to be the bad guys here?
Here we go again with the everyone is just a criminal waiting to commit a crime. How many times do you have to be told that we don't hold innocent people responsible for the crimes other people commit?
Tell me what crimes can I convict you of that you haven't committed yet?
