McCain's "War Hero" Status in Extreme Doubt. Trump Was Right ?

[depotoo]

A brief synopsis of his injuries from a doctor

"Plane crash #2 (ejected) and captivity

Senator McCain broke both arms and a leg/knee (18) after ejecting from his combat aircraft during the Viet Nam War in 1967. During his capture by the North Vietnamese, he was "bayoneted in the ankle and the groin, and had his shoulder smashed by a rifle butt"(16).

Inadequate treatment of the injuries, plus torture by his captors in Hanoi, added to these orthopedic problems (17).

After he was released in 1973, he returned home on crutches and began a painful physical rehabilitation (18). Initially, his knee was frozen at 180 degrees, but nine months of therapy ultimately allowed him to flex it to 90 degrees. Ninety degrees was required for flying status in the Navy (12).

Ultimately, he was left with a decreased range of motion in his arms, evident in the shrugging appearance of his shoulders (17). In his autobiographies, McCain said that his knee still bothered him in cold weather and that he was unable to raise his hands above his shoulders (18)."

Honey, if you really wanted the truth you could have found it. Unless, of course, your claim is he did it all to himself
Release of McCain s Medical Records Provides Unusually Broad Psychological Profile - NYTimes.com

What a disgusting thread. Having had an uncle that was a pow in wwii, it disgusts me beyond belief. I bet you couldn't have made it 1 day. And yet you dare question someone who lived a hell you will never know, defending our country.

The August 10, 2015 issue of Globe magazine has a stunning headline on its front page.
It reads >> "TRUMP IS RIGHT! McCAIN US NOT A WAR HERO" Experts who have reviewed McCain's military record, have been saying the same thing for years. Some even accuse him of being a stool pigeon and blabbing military secrets to the North Vietnamese.

And it looks like the Globe has some strong sources to back up their claim.

1. Colonel David Hackworth, who earned more than 90 medals, including 10 Silver Stars while serving in World War II and Vietnam, said when McCain surrendered to the North Vietnamese in 1967, he told his captors he would provide them with "military information" if they took him to a hospital. Hackworth said "He provided aid and comfort to the enemy." He said also about McCain > "He signed a confession and declared himself a 'black criminal who performed deeds of an air pirate.'
These and other interviews were used as propaganda to fan the flames of the anti-war movement, which was blazing hot at the time. While McCain claims to have endured beatings, torture, and broken bones, during 5 years with the North Vietnamese, "no other POW was witness to these accounts", according to Hackworth.
Hackworth also said the refusal of an offer of early release was not a heroic action by McCain (as he has been lauded for). Actually, he was ordered to turn it down by his commander, and he just followed orders (2 ex-POWs told Hackworth)

2. Hugh E. Scott, a Vietnam vet and journalist, says McCain was nicknamed "Songbird" by his captors, because he sang like a canary, freely giving them information.

3. Pulitzer prize-winning journalist Sydney Schanberg claimed McCain "worked very hard to hide from the public, stunning information about American prisoners in Vietnam who, unlike him, didn't return home." Schanberg also states that McCain got outrageous perks from his North Vietnamese captors including "a woman companion and all kinds if things like that." The Globe claims that the internet has lit up with posts supporting Trump for unmasking McCain. It ends it's article by saying > "Trump doesn't need to apologize for anything - he told the truth."

Not part of the Globe article, but I have read things saying that McCain's medals came to him only because of help from his father, who was a Navy admiral.

Front page Globe Magazine

http://www.forandagainst.com/article...o_Be_President

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

Conservatives do enjoy attacking Veterans.

Especially combat Veterans.

That's what liberals are doing right here on this page, And a guy with 90 medals including 2 Silver Stars. Clean own kitchen liberals.

How the hell do you know what McCain did ? Nobody knows except McCain and his captors. No POWs witnesses any of the stuff McCain claims. You're just taking his word for it. That's stupid.

 

[depotoo]

So, how did he end up in a body cast?
Bud Day Dead John McCain Vietnam POW Cellmate Dies At 88

In Vietnam, he was McCain's cellmate at one camp known as the Plantation and later in the infamous Hanoi Hilton, where he was often the highest-ranking captive. During his imprisonment, the once-muscular, 5-foot-9 Day was hung by his arms for days, tearing them from their sockets. He was freed in 1973 – a skeletal figure of the once dashing fighter pilot. His hands and arms never functioned properly again.
...


In Vietnam, Day was shot down over North Vietnam on Aug. 26, 1967. He bailed out, but the landing broke his knee and his right arm and left him temporarily blinded in one eye.

In the spring of 1968, Day's North Vietnamese captors opened his cell door and brought in McCain, who was wearing a full body cast and was nearly dead. McCain had been in isolation for seven weeks and could not wash or feed himself, Day wrote in "Return With Honor," his 1989 autobiography.

"We were the first Americans he had talked to. ... We were delighted to have him, and he was more than elated to see us," Day wrote. They helped nurse McCain.

 

[depotoo]

You are a liar or fall for everything out thee without checking if they are indeed lying.

We are taking the words of the people who know.

You don't, so we don't give you any cred, protectionist.

We all learned that about you a long time ago on the Boaerd.

NO, you are NOT doing that. As I just said in the previous post, they are on record as saying THEY DON'T KNOW, dum dum.

 

[MikeK]

This thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Nobody here knows what it's like to be a POW in a hostile land, nobody knows what it's like to be tortured for information, and nobody could say for certain they would hold up and hold true through intense and painful interrogation. This is seriously ignorant and judgmental speculation and a shameful slander of one of our war heroes.

Shame on you, Steve McGarrett, you racist POS.

I believe those individuals who express doubts about John McCain being widely celebrated as a hero are concerned not with demeaning McCain but with objective facts and the truth, mainly because there were many American POWs in Vietnam whose names remain unmentioned and obscure.

I have no interest in defaming McCain but I have read a number of magazine articles and statements by individuals who were captive along with McCain but who insist that all the descriptions of McCain's exceptional conduct and heroism are fabrications. I don't know what the truth is. But seeing photos of John McCain welcoming and embracing his former Vietnamese captors does give rise to doubts and questions. (For those who are interested, these photos and more are also accessible via Google search.)

The motivation for publicly questioning McCain's hero reputation is not malice but the simple fact that McCain is not an ordinary veteran but a politician who has sought and obtained high-level public office mainly on the basis of that hero reputation.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

This thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Nobody here knows what it's like to be a POW in a hostile land, nobody knows what it's like to be tortured for information, and nobody could say for certain they would hold up and hold true through intense and painful interrogation. This is seriously ignorant and judgmental speculation and a shameful slander of one of our war heroes.

Shame on you, Steve McGarrett, you racist POS.

I believe those individuals who express doubts about John McCain being widely celebrated as a hero are concerned not with demeaning McCain but with objective facts and the truth, mainly because there were many American POWs in Vietnam whose names remain unmentioned and obscure.

I have no interest in defaming McCain but I have read a number of magazine articles and statements by individuals who were captive along with McCain but who insist that all the descriptions of McCain's exceptional conduct and heroism are fabrications. I don't know what the truth is. But seeing photos of John McCain welcoming and embracing his former Vietnamese captors does give rise to doubts and questions. (For those who are interested, those photos are accessible via Google search.)

If you see subterfuge in an act of forgiveness and reconciliation, I can't help you. And if you are eclectic about what witnesses you listen to, you only get a part of the picture. Did you listen to those who testified McCain showed leadership and refused early release for cooperation? It's easy to throw popcorn at American war heroes, to desecrate their service and sacrifice. Before almighty God I refuse to be guilty of that sin.

 

[depotoo]

My uncle forgave his prison guards in wwii. He had to to survive or the venom would have killed him. He said they were doing what they were told to do.

This thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Nobody here knows what it's like to be a POW in a hostile land, nobody knows what it's like to be tortured for information, and nobody could say for certain they would hold up and hold true through intense and painful interrogation. This is seriously ignorant and judgmental speculation and a shameful slander of one of our war heroes.

Shame on you, Steve McGarrett, you racist POS.

I believe those individuals who express doubts about John McCain being widely celebrated as a hero are concerned not with demeaning McCain but with objective facts and the truth, mainly because there were many American POWs in Vietnam whose names remain unmentioned and obscure.

I have no interest in defaming McCain but I have read a number of magazine articles and statements by individuals who were captive along with McCain but who insist that all the descriptions of McCain's exceptional conduct and heroism are fabrications. I don't know what the truth is. But seeing photos of John McCain welcoming and embracing his former Vietnamese captors does give rise to doubts and questions. (For those who are interested, these photos and more are also accessible via Google search.)

The motivation for publicly questioning McCain's hero reputation is not malice but the simple fact that McCain is not an ordinary veteran but a politician who has sought and obtained high-level public office mainly on the basis of that hero reputation.

 

[MikeK]

If you see subterfuge in an act of forgiveness and reconciliation, I can't help you. And if you are eclectic about what witnesses you listen to, you only get a part of the picture. Did you listen to those who testified McCain showed leadership and refused early release for cooperation? It's easy to throw popcorn at American war heroes, to desecrate their service and sacrifice. Before almighty God I refuse to be guilty of that sin.

I think you are ignoring the fact that John McCain has risen to political prominence on the basis of a reputation the credibility of which is subject to question.

Why should the facts not be examined as closely as possible?

 

[MikeK]

My uncle forgave his prison guards in wwii. He had to to survive or the venom would have killed him. He said they were doing what they were told to do.

Fine.

But was your uncle running for public office on the basis of what he endured as a POW -- and was the substance of what he forgave his prison guards for challenged and denied by other POWs?

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

If you see subterfuge in an act of forgiveness and reconciliation, I can't help you. And if you are eclectic about what witnesses you listen to, you only get a part of the picture. Did you listen to those who testified McCain showed leadership and refused early release for cooperation? It's easy to throw popcorn at American war heroes, to desecrate their service and sacrifice. Before almighty God I refuse to be guilty of that sin.

I think you are ignoring the fact that John McCain has risen to political prominence on the basis of a reputation the credibility of which is subject to question.

Why should the facts not be examined as closely as possible?

The more they're examined, the more I conclude McCain is a war hero. I doubt a flea like you would last 5 weeks as a POW in a non Geneva country. Any punk can take cheap shots at a proven combat veteran. You will never be impressive.

 

[MikeK]

If you see subterfuge in an act of forgiveness and reconciliation, I can't help you. And if you are eclectic about what witnesses you listen to, you only get a part of the picture. Did you listen to those who testified McCain showed leadership and refused early release for cooperation? It's easy to throw popcorn at American war heroes, to desecrate their service and sacrifice. Before almighty God I refuse to be guilty of that sin.

I think you are ignoring the fact that John McCain has risen to political prominence on the basis of a reputation the credibility of which is subject to question.

Why should the facts not be examined as closely as possible?

The more they're examined, the more I conclude McCain is a war hero. I doubt a flea like you would last 5 weeks as a POW in a non Geneva country. Any punk can take cheap shots at a proven combat veteran. You will never be impressive.

 

[MikeK]

The more they're examined, the more I conclude McCain is a war hero. I doubt a flea like you would last 5 weeks as a POW in a non Geneva country. Any punk can take cheap shots at a proven combat veteran. You will never be impressive.

Keepers at NYC's Bronx Zoo have installed plexiglas barriers beyond the bars of some cages in the primate exhibit because the monkeys there are known to defecate into their hands and throw it when something upsets them. The monkeys do this when they are frustrated because all that a monkey in a cage can do when he doesn't like something is throw shit.

Ignorance and stupidity are metaphorical cages. Personal insults and empty ad hominem comments are analogous to handfuls of shit to be tossed out in place of intelligent, reasoned, logical arguments.

 

[Syriusly]

My uncle forgave his prison guards in wwii. He had to to survive or the venom would have killed him. He said they were doing what they were told to do.

Fine.

But was your uncle running for public office on the basis of what he endured as a POW -- and was the substance of what he forgave his prison guards for challenged and denied by other POWs?

What has public office to do about forgiveness?

John McCain- like many veterans- has used his military record to go into politics- he is not even the only POW to do so. I disagree with McCain politically on most things- but I honor his service and sacrifice.

 

[JakeStarkey]

McCain is a hero, based on the overwhelming probative nature of the evidence.

That is not open to serious debate and is noted that those who do should have their motives closely examined.

 

[Syriusly]

I look at it this way- John McCain volunteered to serve in the United States Navy- and as a result of his volunteering to serve, he suffered grievous injuries- by most accounts he was tortured- but lets say for arguments sake he wasn't- he suffered major industries when he was captured and returned home with permanent injuries.

Donald Trump graduated college with a net worth of 200,000 and never volunteered for anything.

I think it is fruitless now to measure a person entirely upon their record- or lack of record during the Vietnam War- but Trump challenged McCain's service record- and by any comparison- John McCain's record is far, far better.

 

[MikeK]

[...]

John McCain- like many veterans- has used his military record to go into politics- he is not even the only POW to do so.

[...]

Of course that's true. But have any questions regarding the personal integrity of those other veterans arisen?

The issue surrounding McCain are statements made by POWs who claim to have been confined in the same prison as McCain throughout McCain's captivity and who deny that neither McCain nor any other prisoner in that camp had been tortured. As far as I know, McCain has never challenged any of these claims. In addition to the claims that McCain was never tortured there are photographs of McCain welcoming and embracing some of his POW camp guards.

John McCain deserves all the credit he is entitled to for his military service. And he deserves all the sympathy he is entitled to for the suffering endured during his captivity. But a question has arisen as to whether McCain's accounts of being tortured are true -- or were they exaggerated or fabricated for the purpose of gaining advantage over his political opponents.

I didn't make the claims against McCain. Nor have I heard, or heard of, McCain denying the claims and/or denouncing those who put them forth . Which, considering his volatile temperament and his usual outspoken nature, is cause for these questions to occur. And the obvious justification for these questions is the fact that any political candidate who would advance his ambitions by employing such a sleazy deception simply cannot be trusted under any circumstances.

Again, I am not making claims against John McCain. I am acknowledging some existing claims in the hope of receiving substantive responses to them. So far all I've gotten are some personal insults and expressions of emotionally-charged patriotic fervor.

 

[MikeK]

I look at it this way- John McCain volunteered to serve in the United States Navy- and as a result of his volunteering to serve, he suffered grievous injuries- by most accounts he was tortured- but lets say for arguments sake he wasn't- he suffered major industries when he was captured and returned home with permanent injuries.

Donald Trump graduated college with a net worth of 200,000 and never volunteered for anything.

I think it is fruitless now to measure a person entirely upon their record- or lack of record during the Vietnam War- but Trump challenged McCain's service record- and by any comparison- John McCain's record is far, far better.

I agree.

I voted for Obama, mainly because the alternative was McCain -- who is a temperamental war monger. (Obama was not my first choice. Dennis Kucinich was.)

Re: Trump. Anyone who would vote for him is a damn fool.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

I look at it this way- John McCain volunteered to serve in the United States Navy- and as a result of his volunteering to serve, he suffered grievous injuries- by most accounts he was tortured- but lets say for arguments sake he wasn't- he suffered major industries when he was captured and returned home with permanent injuries.

Donald Trump graduated college with a net worth of 200,000 and never volunteered for anything.

I think it is fruitless now to measure a person entirely upon their record- or lack of record during the Vietnam War- but Trump challenged McCain's service record- and by any comparison- John McCain's record is far, far better.

I agree.

I voted for Obama, mainly because the alternative was McCain -- who is a temperamental war monger. (Obama was not my first choice. Dennis Kucinich was.)

Re: Trump. Anyone who would vote for him is a damn fool.

I doubt you really lost any sleep over that decision.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

I look at it this way- John McCain volunteered to serve in the United States Navy- and as a result of his volunteering to serve, he suffered grievous injuries- by most accounts he was tortured- but lets say for arguments sake he wasn't- he suffered major industries when he was captured and returned home with permanent injuries.

Donald Trump graduated college with a net worth of 200,000 and never volunteered for anything.

I think it is fruitless now to measure a person entirely upon their record- or lack of record during the Vietnam War- but Trump challenged McCain's service record- and by any comparison- John McCain's record is far, far better.

And yet McCain went on to be a senator and then assaulted the Bill of Rights with his "campaign finance reform" law. Nobody should judge potential presidents by their military service but rather on their fidelity to their oath of office. I have little fear that Donald Trump will try to outlaw the 1st Amendment as president, military service or not.

 

[tigerred59]

The August 10, 2015 issue of Globe magazine has a stunning headline on its front page.
It reads >> "TRUMP IS RIGHT! McCAIN IS NOT A WAR HERO" Experts who have reviewed McCain's military record, have been saying the same thing for years. Some even accuse him of being a stool pigeon and blabbing military secrets to the North Vietnamese.

And it looks like the Globe has some strong sources to back up their claim.

1. Colonel David Hackworth, who earned more than 90 medals, including 10 Silver Stars while serving in World War II and Vietnam, said when McCain surrendered to the North Vietnamese in 1967, he told his captors he would provide them with "military information" if they took him to a hospital. Hackworth said "He provided aid and comfort to the enemy." He said also about McCain > "He signed a confession and declared himself a 'black criminal who performed deeds of an air pirate.'
These and other interviews were used as propaganda to fan the flames of the anti-war movement, which was blazing hot at the time. While McCain claims to have endured beatings, torture, and broken bones, during 5 years with the North Vietnamese, "no other POW was witness to these accounts", according to Hackworth.
Hackworth also said the refusal of an offer of early release was not a heroic action by McCain (as he has been lauded for). Actually, he was ordered to turn it down by his commander, and he just followed orders (2 ex-POWs told Hackworth)

2. Hugh E. Scott, a Vietnam vet and journalist, says McCain was nicknamed "Songbird" by his captors, because he sang like a canary, freely giving them information.

3. Pulitzer prize-winning journalist Sydney Schanberg claimed McCain "worked very hard to hide from the public, stunning information about American prisoners in Vietnam who, unlike him, didn't return home." Schanberg also states that McCain got outrageous perks from his North Vietnamese captors including "a woman companion and all kinds if things like that." The Globe claims that the internet has lit up with posts supporting Trump for unmasking McCain. It ends it's article by saying > "Trump doesn't need to apologize for anything - he told the truth."

Not part of the Globe article, but I have read things saying that McCain's medals came to him only because of help from his father, who was a Navy admiral.

Front page Globe Magazine

http://www.forandagainst.com/article...o_Be_President

Here we go again, slamming a nut because he got captured, you people are sick

 

[Syriusly]

I look at it this way- John McCain volunteered to serve in the United States Navy- and as a result of his volunteering to serve, he suffered grievous injuries- by most accounts he was tortured- but lets say for arguments sake he wasn't- he suffered major industries when he was captured and returned home with permanent injuries.

Donald Trump graduated college with a net worth of 200,000 and never volunteered for anything.

I think it is fruitless now to measure a person entirely upon their record- or lack of record during the Vietnam War- but Trump challenged McCain's service record- and by any comparison- John McCain's record is far, far better.

And yet McCain went on to be a senator and then assaulted the Bill of Rights with his "campaign finance reform" law. Nobody should judge potential presidents by their military service but rather on their fidelity to their oath of office. I have little fear that Donald Trump will try to outlaw the 1st Amendment as president, military service or not.

There was no assault on the Bill of Rights. McCain and Feingold wrote and passed a campaign finance reform bill that they believed to be Constitutional- the Supreme Court decided otherwise.

I disagree with the decision but until there is a Constitutional Amendment changing campaign finance law, we have open season on paying off politicians.