More Proof the skeptics are WINNING!!

[polarbear]

He won`t be able to answer any of your questions, because he has no idea who feeds how much into the grid that supplies NY at any given time.
The 5 wind mill farms combined have so far been able to contribute only about 10% during ideal conditions which don`t necessarily coincide with peak demand times.
These instant amateur internet forum "engineers" just can`t get a handle on what it takes to run a power on demand grid system, no matter how many times you try to explain it.
You should think that the zealots who keep ranting about it in this forum go and take a look at the German "renewable energy" system to see what it REALLY takes to run power on demand from wind & solar.
The wind turbines and solar farms are just the front end component.
It`s the next phase, which is the problem that has to be solved and gives it the ability to adapt to load fluctuations and the ability to synchronize it while the power source, in this case the wind is fluctuating at the same time.
The only way to solve this problem is with a secondary hydro- electric turbine & pumping system:

That`s the problem with wind & solar,...it takes a secondary power plant to use wind & solar as a power on demand power plant.
Beyond running the storage basin pumps ,both are essentially useless by themselves and you will always need the other conventional power plants to carry the bulk of the load..and Germany wants to phase out as much as is possible of the latter, starting with nuclear.
So now Germans are in an uproar as the "Black forest" mountain tops are being clear cut and excavated for these huge basins and power line corridors....and so far that`s just a small portion of what it takes before that project is complete.
Imagine what it would take to implement that in a nation the size of the U.S.

Apparently you only deal in perfect solutions. Typical for science wannabes.

Tell us about your perfect solution.

And you claim to be an engineer. If you were the type of individual who designed airplanes we would still be WALKING!

How easy it is to be an "engineer" in an internet forum these days...amazing isn`t it ?
But why not, for guys like him, thanks to Google&Wikipedia that`s easier than pretending to be a CIA agent in a bar trying to impress a girl that had one drink too many.
He should have stuck with that "spiel" because he isn`t doing much better with his "engineers like I am" role playing here either.
Won`t be long and he`ll vanish like the other ones we had fun with before he came along...and re-incarnate with a new username and profession, like the guy who kept referring to himself as "physist" or the ex-Navy deck swab who promoted himself to "nuclear engineer".

 

[westwall]

You do? How big is your windmill? How much does it generate?
Does it ever go over 30% of the rated capacity?

We have a grid in NY. Lots of windmills. Lots of hydro. Some nuclear. No solar. I pay 3.5 cents per KW hr.

What do you pay for all of that fuel and waste disposal?

So you don't actually heat your home with wind.

I don't think pmsmz even has a home. Me thinks he's still living in his moms basement like all internet trolls.

 

[westwall]

Apparently you only deal in perfect solutions. Typical for science wannabes.

Tell us about your perfect solution.

And you claim to be an engineer. If you were the type of individual who designed airplanes we would still be WALKING!

How easy it is to be an "engineer" in an internet forum these days...amazing isn`t it ?
But why not, for guys like him, thanks to Google&Wikipedia that`s easier than pretending to be a CIA agent in a bar trying to impress a girl that had one drink too many.
He should have stuck with that "spiel" because he isn`t doing much better with his "engineers like I am" role playing here either.
Won`t be long and he`ll vanish like the other ones we had fun with before he came along...and re-incarnate with a new username and profession, like the guy who kept referring to himself as "physist" or the ex-Navy deck swab who promoted himself to "nuclear engineer".

Yep, just another game of internet "whack a mole"!

 

[polarbear]

We have a grid in NY. Lots of windmills. Lots of hydro. Some nuclear. No solar. I pay 3.5 cents per KW hr.

What do you pay for all of that fuel and waste disposal?

So you don't actually heat your home with wind.

I don't think pmsmz even has a home. Me thinks he's still living in his moms basement like all internet trolls.

Same CO2 fetish and the same m.o, as "Saigon" the "journalist" from Finland who did not even know the name of the current Fin-PM or have a keyboard with a Fin character set.
I`m tempted to stick his IP into his face too, but the last time I did that I got banned, so let`s just go with your hunch.

 

[skookerasbil]

Polar Bear is cleaning some clocks, I see!!

LMAO

 

[skookerasbil]

This thread sure has made a splash.......but not for the k00ks!!

 

[HenryBHough]

Tried wind and solar on a mixture of mountain-top radio repeater sites over a ten year period. Grid was not an option for any of them. Had the wind machines worked out they would have saved tons of money on batteries as wind may not blow all the time but it does sometimes blow regardless of day or night. Solar availability is highly seasonal so it was necessary to provide enough battery capacity for those seasons when sunlight was but very limited time at best and overcast many times when there should have been sun.

The deciding factor was maintenance. The wind machines were more efficient and the reduced battery need a tremendous saving. One helicopter trip to replace a snapped blade, however, would have paid for enough batteries to allow the system to run about six months without any recharge.

Helicopter outfit loved the wind machines, however.

 

[PMZ]

Actually, I do. Not exclusively but partially. Most of the rest is from hydro power.

 

[polarbear]

Tried wind and solar on a mixture of mountain-top radio repeater sites over a ten year period. Grid was not an option for any of them. Had the wind machines worked out they would have saved tons of money on batteries as wind may not blow all the time but it does sometimes blow regardless of day or night. Solar availability is highly seasonal so it was necessary to provide enough battery capacity for those seasons when sunlight was but very limited time at best and overcast many times when there should have been sun.

The deciding factor was maintenance. The wind machines were more efficient and the reduced battery need a tremendous saving. One helicopter trip to replace a snapped blade, however, would have paid for enough batteries to allow the system to run about six months without any recharge.

Helicopter outfit loved the wind machines, however.

Small static loads such as the repeaters you are talking about aren`t a problem for windmills because you don`t run into the kind of problems you face with a grid tied generator.
It`s one thing to generate DC to keep a battery bank charged and then convert it to AC with an inverter which can then be grid tied, but that has it`s limits.
I see you had some problems with your blades.
If you are still at it I may have a solution that might interest you.
I made my 8 foot blades out of aircraft quality spruce and essentially copied the radial pitch angle change of a Herc C130 prop.

First you take a 2 X4 and drill a center hole then rip it on a table saw. Set the fence to 1/8th of an inch.
Next stack the strips like a deck of cards stick a centering pin through the hole and fan the strips like a deck of cards until the pitch of that "stair case" is 15 degrees at the outer edge.
Now laminate the stacked strips with epoxy and let it cure.
After that grind the blades with a good sanding disc till they are smooth.
You can still see the laminate on the right picture before I painted that blade. As you know a laminate is much stronger than a solid piece and my blades survived windstorms that had trees ripping down hydro lines in my area. On the left that wasn`t quite the finished product yet. I put it up quick and dirty, because I was too eager to try out the 1 hp motor where I rewired the stator and slotted the rotor to fit the PM`s.
There was no "cogging" problem even at low wind speeds.
With the 15 degree pitch angle at the tips I registered over 2 foot pounds of torque at the drive shaft when my anemometer showed a wind speed of ~ 10 kmh. I opted for a high torque low rpm pitch and geared it up 8:1 with a sprocket and chain drive rather than a shallow pitch to get directly into the generator minimum output rpm range.
That`s the only way to go with a large diameter prop anyways and if you were off a couple of grams when you balanced the rotor it`s not enough to cause any vibrations you would notice.
The other advantage is that it`s easier to turn the prop out of the wind without fighting the gyro effect you get with a large prop at higher rpms.
I haven`t got a picture handy...but where you see the vice grips on the left side there was a link and later a saginaw screw jack from my old satellite dish which was activated by a micro switch when a wind > 40 kmh pushed the tab. That turned the tail fin arm and the prop angled out of the wind.
That damn thing hardly ever stopped and drew a lot of attention.
Then one day a cattle rancher knocked on my door, made me an offer I could not refuse and loaded the whole contraption on his trailer.He did leave me my deep cycle battery bank and my 2000 watt inverter which was tied into my solar panels. But they got wiped out soon after in a hail storm that dented cars and smashed almost every window in my neighborhood. But I still had my 6.5 KVA Hyandai generator so I was still okay when the power was down.
No way would I get caught without that thing!

 

[flacaltenn]

I heat my home with wind power in NY. You'd think that engineers in the windy city would be at least as smart.

You do? How big is your windmill? How much does it generate?
Does it ever go over 30% of the rated capacity?

We have a grid in NY. Lots of windmills. Lots of hydro. Some nuclear. No solar. I pay 3.5 cents per KW hr.

What do you pay for all of that fuel and waste disposal?

You haven't looked at the rate on your bill in 20 years have you?
If you pay 3.5Cents/KWhr in New York --- Your on major subsidies or I'll be your monkey's uncle for a week..

http://www.bls.gov/ro2/avgengny.pdf

New York area households paid an average of 18.8 cents per kilowatt
hour (kWh) of electricity in October 2013, similar to the 18.6 cents per kWh paid in October 2012.

 

[HenryBHough]

Small static loads such as the repeaters you are talking about aren`t a problem for windmills because you don`t run into the kind of problems you face with a grid tied generator.

It`s one thing to generate DC to keep a battery bank charged and then convert it to AC with an inverter which can then be grid tied, but that has it`s limits.
I see you had some problems with your blades.
If you are still at it...............

It was actually less complex since the equipment was designed to run on DC exclusively. No inverter was needed. The only electronic issue was regulation since most solid state devices don't fancy working up to specification below about -10 degrees F and these sites frequently enjoyed -40/-50 degrees F. I never did try home-grown blades as the wind machines were provided by a manufacturer at no cost as test beds for their products. The generators themselves, almost every version, stood up well but the blades were the issue. If put up when it was very cold and it stayed cold all was well. But when there were freeze-thaw cycles ice buildup cause imbalance. At first the supports weren't strong enough so gave way and the whole thing came down. Once we got the supports sufficiently beefed-up the weak point shifted to blade shedding. At most sites the solar installation (had existed before trying wind) kept the battery banks up. But at a site designed primarily for wind, with smaller battery capacity, was prone to running out stored power making those extra helicopter trips necessary. The travel costs were not underwritten by the wind machine maker so continuing the experimentation was no longer viable.

BTW, the most pressing part of the demand for huge battery capacity was not entirely limited sunlight. It was snow/ice buildup on the solar panels. They were good for about 2/3rds of the winter but by late winter each site usually was indicating the need for a visit to clear the panels (telemetry on battery capacity) which was a sustainable cost.

 

[polarbear]

You do? How big is your windmill? How much does it generate?
Does it ever go over 30% of the rated capacity?

We have a grid in NY. Lots of windmills. Lots of hydro. Some nuclear. No solar. I pay 3.5 cents per KW hr.

What do you pay for all of that fuel and waste disposal?

You haven't looked at the rate on your bill in 20 years have you?
If you pay 3.5Cents/KWhr in New York --- Your on major subsidies or I'll be your monkey's uncle for a week..

http://www.bls.gov/ro2/avgengny.pdf

New York area households paid an average of 18.8 cents per kilowatt
hour (kWh) of electricity in October 2013, similar to the 18.6 cents per kWh paid in October 2012.

WOW !...OUCH !
That`s as bad as in Germany. They are @ 11.6 euro cents per kwh base price + 28 % tax. And now they are planning to add a demand charge penalty if a household spikes past 2 KVA.
Manitobans pay 7.5 cents CDn$ per KWh for the first 11 000 kWhours and no demand surcharge for residential single phase.
Current Electricity Monthly Rates

....and people are bitching.
Our rates went up recently because MH is installing yet another HVDC line ("Bipole3") in addition to Bipole 1 & 2 to supply Minnesota and Wisconsin.

On May 25, 2011, the 61-year-old Manitoba premier announced that the province’s Crown corporation, Manitoba Hydro, had signed agreements that would see it – starting in 2020 – sell 350 megawatts (MW) of electricity to two separate utilities in neighboring Minnesota and Wisconsin. Those sales, along with a similar deal reached with Northern States Power (now a part of Xcel Energy), meant Manitoba had committed to sell 475 MW of clean hydro power that could bring in $4 billion in revenue over the lifetime of the contracts.
Manitobans, and the businesses that serve them and employ them, enjoy some of the lowest electricity rates in the country, rivaling Quebec – another province blessed with an abundance of hydroelectricity capacity. But Manitoba’s cheap power (the residential rate is 6.6 cents per KWh) is in part made possible by exports to outside markets, particularly the United States’ Midwest region. This revenue helps the province pay down the utility’s debt and the cost of operating those 14 generating stations. And as Manitoba Hydro embarks on an ambitious, multibillion-dollar plan to build two new hydro projects in its northern hinterlands – the Keeyask and Conawapa generating stations – that would provide the power to fulfill its export commitments, the company is encountering some bumpy terrain.

In view of that, don`t you think it`s a bit silly that the Manitoba Government erected 60 Siemens SW2.3-101 windmills, slated are 200 and obliges Manitoba Hydro to buy the power the St.Joseph`s wind mills produce.
That took a lot of ugly arm twisting, but that`s the kind of shit that happens whenever the "New Democrats" or the "Liberals" win a provincial election in Canada.
On a federal level they are all but extinct and the same trend is developing now as well on a provincial level...and energy policy is a big part of it.

I`m awed how much New Yorkers pay for their power, because a huge slice of it comes from Quebec which exports it to the US even cheaper than Manitoba.

And all the while people point fingers at the oil & gas while the biggest rip-offs are happening with electric power that has no "carbon foot print"
whatsoever

Added edit:
New Yorkers currently pay $ 1.07 per liter gasoline as of Dec 4th if I`m not mistaken.
1 kg gasoline (=1.4 liters) ==> 11.8 kWh costing ~ $1.50
And 11.8 KWh cost $ 2.21 in New York
So what`s the deal driving around New York in an electric car ???

 

[polarbear]

Small static loads such as the repeaters you are talking about aren`t a problem for windmills because you don`t run into the kind of problems you face with a grid tied generator.

It`s one thing to generate DC to keep a battery bank charged and then convert it to AC with an inverter which can then be grid tied, but that has it`s limits.
I see you had some problems with your blades.
If you are still at it...............

It was actually less complex since the equipment was designed to run on DC exclusively. No inverter was needed. The only electronic issue was regulation since most solid state devices don't fancy working up to specification below about -10 degrees F and these sites frequently enjoyed -40/-50 degrees F. I never did try home-grown blades as the wind machines were provided by a manufacturer at no cost as test beds for their products. The generators themselves, almost every version, stood up well but the blades were the issue. If put up when it was very cold and it stayed cold all was well. But when there were freeze-thaw cycles ice buildup cause imbalance. At first the supports weren't strong enough so gave way and the whole thing came down. Once we got the supports sufficiently beefed-up the weak point shifted to blade shedding. At most sites the solar installation (had existed before trying wind) kept the battery banks up. But at a site designed primarily for wind, with smaller battery capacity, was prone to running out stored power making those extra helicopter trips necessary. The travel costs were not underwritten by the wind machine maker so continuing the experimentation was no longer viable.

BTW, the most pressing part of the demand for huge battery capacity was not entirely limited sunlight. It was snow/ice buildup on the solar panels. They were good for about 2/3rds of the winter but by late winter each site usually was indicating the need for a visit to clear the panels (telemetry on battery capacity) which was a sustainable cost.

Boy oh boy, can I ever sympathize with your problems...

because they are exactly the same headaches we had where I worked:

This was my "commute" from where I used to live (in the Yukon) to CFS Alert Ellesmere Island:

My job was the "B-Gen-O" (base engineering offc.)

And that`s one of our relay stations up there:

One solar panel, which is totally useless and no way would a windmill last through any of the storms we have up there at the temperatures you get just 450 miles south of the pole..:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOwvR-Zuev4"]Windstorm in Alert 2 - YouTube[/ame]

There is worse than that, when these winds kicked up the only way we got from one building into another is hooking up with a harness to the ropes you see in the background..else you got swept away, never to be seen again

So, like I said I`m quite aware that your job wasn`t a joy ride either...now that you told me what you do for a living.
I guess nuclear batteries are out of the question for civilian use and in an area where access is not restricted.

 

[HenryBHough]

Except I didn't do it for a living.

It was a retirement hobby.

Which makes it a good thing that ObamaCare includes mental health treatment.

 

[polarbear]

Except I didn't do it for a living.

It was a retirement hobby.

Which makes it a good thing that ObamaCare includes mental health treatment.

Lucky you & lucky me..I`m retired now as well from the "chosen frozen" as they referred to us.
Came back here to add this, because you seem a lot like the other "Dilberts" I had the privilege to work with:


Keep it up and take good care of yourself & yours
+ my sincerest X-mas greetings from Canada

 

[PMZ]

You do? How big is your windmill? How much does it generate?
Does it ever go over 30% of the rated capacity?

We have a grid in NY. Lots of windmills. Lots of hydro. Some nuclear. No solar. I pay 3.5 cents per KW hr.

What do you pay for all of that fuel and waste disposal?

You haven't looked at the rate on your bill in 20 years have you?
If you pay 3.5Cents/KWhr in New York --- Your on major subsidies or I'll be your monkey's uncle for a week..

http://www.bls.gov/ro2/avgengny.pdf

New York area households paid an average of 18.8 cents per kilowatt
hour (kWh) of electricity in October 2013, similar to the 18.6 cents per kWh paid in October 2012.

You're right. It's 4.4 cents now. It went up recently.

100 years ago big power asked my village to shut down their small local coal fired plant. In return, we got power from them at Niagara hydro rates forever.

That fuel-less, waste-less stuff is real cheap to make, you know. Now we're adding fuel-less, waste-less wind to it too. I live in an all electric house.

Good deal, no?

 

[skookerasbil]

We have a grid in NY. Lots of windmills. Lots of hydro. Some nuclear. No solar. I pay 3.5 cents per KW hr.

What do you pay for all of that fuel and waste disposal?

You haven't looked at the rate on your bill in 20 years have you?
If you pay 3.5Cents/KWhr in New York --- Your on major subsidies or I'll be your monkey's uncle for a week..

http://www.bls.gov/ro2/avgengny.pdf

New York area households paid an average of 18.8 cents per kilowatt
hour (kWh) of electricity in October 2013, similar to the 18.6 cents per kWh paid in October 2012.

You're right. It's 4.4 cents now. It went up recently.

100 years ago big power asked my village to shut down their small local coal fired plant. In return, we got power from them at Niagara hydro rates forever.

That fuel-less, waste-less stuff is real cheap to make, you know. Now we're adding fuel-less, waste-less wind to it too. I live in an all electric house.

Good deal, no?

cool s0n.....we're all real proud of ya!!!

 

[PMZ]

You haven't looked at the rate on your bill in 20 years have you?
If you pay 3.5Cents/KWhr in New York --- Your on major subsidies or I'll be your monkey's uncle for a week..

You're right. It's 4.4 cents now. It went up recently.

100 years ago big power asked my village to shut down their small local coal fired plant. In return, we got power from them at Niagara hydro rates forever.

That fuel-less, waste-less stuff is real cheap to make, you know. Now we're adding fuel-less, waste-less wind to it too. I live in an all electric house.

Good deal, no?

cool s0n.....we're all real proud of ya!!!

Cheap, reliable, Fuel-free, waste-free, forever energy. The future.

 

[skookerasbil]

By the way Polar......there are like 129 electric cars in New York. Virtually all of them are driven by highly wealthy snobs from places like Port Washington, Scarsdale and East Hampton.

I was at a car meet at Captree Boat Basin this past Sunday AM. Always 200 or so cars there, none of which get more than 20mpg. On Long Island here, half the people drive medium to large SUV's.....once in a blue moon you might see a SMARTFORTWO. I invariably pull up next to them at a light in my Mustang point at them and laugh!! Always a hoot.....my kids love it......laugh their asses off. Do the same with Prius drivers........you wanna see a k00k mental case lefty meltdown as I sit there and rev my 'Stang with straight pipes and headers. Holy fuck.......but I just roll down the window and with a big smile on my face tell them, "Check the polls s0n.....nobody cares about global warming anymore! Can that thing reach 60 mph?". I was put on this earth to irritate far left mental cases and shit do I enjoy it too!!!

Its cold as shit here tonight......gonna be 15 degree's and below zero with the wind chill. We need a wee bit of fucking global warming here my friend!!

 

[ScienceRocks]

Hydro, wind, solar, geo-thermal and wave is the future.

No question about it.

We don't need to strip mine a mountain
We don't need to move coal on trains
We don't need to pollute our air
WE don't need to load coal into our machines
We don't need to frack the earth
We don't need the water pollution


We can move energy from clean energy to the grid Cheaply and wisely.