Zone1 Mormons are fine, but I have to call BS on the golden plates story.

[ActionJackson]

I live in the heart of Mormon country (mainly LDS and FLDS). I've heard some of their sermons and reject their beliefs. Most of them are decent folks in day-to-day life, and they're big into guns and prepping and basic morals and the Constitution, so I do have things in common with them.

My first wife was a Mormon, and we lived with her parents up in northern Utah in the late 70s. I liked their basic lifestyle, but they tried and tried to get me to go to church with them, but I never did. The sermons I've heard were either on the radio or the one time I went to a flag raising and someone preached there.

They actually don't put a lot of stock in the Bible. The Book of Mormon and a couple of other extra-biblical works are more important to them than the Bible.

 

[rightwinger]

Moses actually had the tablets and they were placed in the Ark of the Covenant for many years and were had among the people. In the case of Joseph Smith, the angel took the golden plates and so we don't have them.

Damn…..that sure makes it harder to believe their story.

Without the actual evidence, you have to rely on……Faith

 

[onefour1]

Damn…..that sure makes it harder to believe their story.

Without the actual evidence, you have to rely on……Faith

Yes, maybe God wants it that way.

 

[ActionJackson]

The Gentiles as a people have never heard the voice of Jesus Christ. Jesus was only sent to preach unto the house of Israel.

Jesus did speak with a Canaanite woman. He did tell her that He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel, but when she suggested that even the dogs get the crumbs off of the master's table ... He did bless her.

Matthew 15:22-28, "
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."

 

[onefour1]

Jesus did speak with a Canaanite woman. He did tell her that He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel, but when she suggested that even the dogs get the crumbs off of the master's table ... He did bless her.

Matthew 15:22-28, "
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."

Yes he did. And that show us how he is full of love for all mankind that he would bless her even though his mission was not unto her and her people.

 

[onefour1]

I live in the heart of Mormon country (mainly LDS and FLDS). I've heard some of their sermons and reject their beliefs. Most of them are decent folks in day-to-day life, and they're big into guns and prepping and basic morals and the Constitution, so I do have things in common with them.

My first wife was a Mormon, and we lived with her parents up in northern Utah in the late 70s. I liked their basic lifestyle, but they tried and tried to get me to go to church with them, but I never did. The sermons I've heard were either on the radio or the one time I went to a flag raising and someone preached there.

They actually don't put a lot of stock in the Bible. The Book of Mormon and a couple of other extra-biblical works are more important to them than the Bible.

I for one member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do put alot of stock in the Bible. As part of our Articles of Faith, we all believe the Bible to be the very word of God but only as far as it is translated correctly. The Church makes the following statement regarding the Bible.

BIBLE

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Joseph and the early Mormons preached the Bible far more than the Book of Mormon.

That has changed over a 100 years.

 

[ActionJackson]

I for one member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do put alot of stock in the Bible. As part of our Articles of Faith, we all believe the Bible to be the very word of God but only as far as it is translated correctly. The Church makes the following statement regarding the Bible.

BIBLE

That's exactly what my in laws would tell me. But the same can be true of any writing, including the Book of Mormon. Who translated it and is the translation inerrant?

Personally ... I use the Bible only. There are lots of interesting writings in the world and many of them have good things to say, but the Bible tells me what I need to know to achieve salvation in Jesus Christ. That's really what it's all about for me. Entry into God's Kingdom through faith in Christ.

 

[Cougarbear]

It would be more believable if Moses and Joseph Smith actually had the word of God instead of…..Trust me, I had them, but I lost them

However, you aren't about the truth or believable. Neither Moses nor Joseph Smith ever said they lost the tablets or plates. Once the Word of God was written down, the actual plates and tablets are no more important. Take the witness to the Plates Joseph Smith had. Joseph showed them to people to be the witnesses to the work to become The Book of Mormon. "What happened to the 3 witnesses of the Book of Mormon? All three men eventually broke with Smith and the church he organized, although Harris and Cowdery were eventually rebaptized into the church after Smith's death. Whitmer founded his own Church of Christ (Whitmerite). All three men upheld their testimony of the Book of Mormon at their deaths."
Then, there were 8 more: "Each of the Eight Witnesses likewise reaffirmed his testimony of examining the plates, though some eventually became estranged from the Church."

Like Doubting Thomas, just because you have seen miracles, doesn't mean that will send you in the right direction forever. Those that left the Church never did deny what they saw. But, they began their apostasy by teaching other false doctrines. If you saw the plates or the tablets now, that would mean you would become converted to either one. You are a doubting Thomas. I'm sure you don't believe Jesus Christ died for your sins and life's troubles either. I'm sure you don't believe he died and resurrected allowing for all of us to be resurrected too.

 

[Cougarbear]

The miracles of the Old and New Testament happened so long ago that they can neither be proved nor disproved.

The presumed miracles of Mormonism happened so recently that they can be evaluated against the evidence. There is no evidence that any of the events written about in The Book of Mormon happened. There is much evidence that they did not happen. The Book of Abraham is an obvious fraud.

No they can't. And, the Book of Abraham is true. Everything in it is true. So, what evidence of the Book of Mormon can be evaluated? There were letters and books written by people during Jesus time and also Moses time. Heck, there are people like you that don't believe the Holocaust never happened either. Belief isn't about physical proof. It's about getting down on your knees, asking the Father in the name of the Son if these things are true. And, do so with real intent, not with a double mind (saying you are trying to prove it's true but already believe and know it's not). Where does your faith exist in?

 

[MarathonMike]

So, tell us if you believe in the miracles of the Old and New Testaments? If not, why should we answer this question to you?

Like all of the thing Moses did? No. Are you a Mormon who has some knowledge about the Golden Plates?

 

[rightwinger]

However, you aren't about the truth or believable. Neither Moses nor Joseph Smith ever said they lost the tablets or plates. Once the Word of God was written down, the actual plates and tablets are no more important. Take the witness to the Plates Joseph Smith had. Joseph showed them to people to be the witnesses to the work to become The Book of Mormon. "What happened to the 3 witnesses of the Book of Mormon? All three men eventually broke with Smith and the church he organized, although Harris and Cowdery were eventually rebaptized into the church after Smith's death. Whitmer founded his own Church of Christ (Whitmerite). All three men upheld their testimony of the Book of Mormon at their deaths."
Then, there were 8 more: "Each of the Eight Witnesses likewise reaffirmed his testimony of examining the plates, though some eventually became estranged from the Church."

Like Doubting Thomas, just because you have seen miracles, doesn't mean that will send you in the right direction forever. Those that left the Church never did deny what they saw. But, they began their apostasy by teaching other false doctrines. If you saw the plates or the tablets now, that would mean you would become converted to either one. You are a doubting Thomas. I'm sure you don't believe Jesus Christ died for your sins and life's troubles either. I'm sure you don't believe he died and resurrected allowing for all of us to be resurrected too.

Moses could have made it a lot easier.
This is the Word of God….Here it is!

Same with Joseph Smith……God gave me these tablets

Instead….It is, Trust me, why would I lie?

 

[Cougarbear]

Like all of the thing Moses did? No. Are you a Mormon who has some knowledge about the Golden Plates?

So, you cannot understand the miracles of God then. The plates of gold and brass were taken by the Angel Moroni after the Book of Mormon was completed. They are not lost. Neither is the Ark of the Covenant.

 

[Cougarbear]

Moses could have made it a lot easier.
This is the Word of God….Here it is!

Same with Joseph Smith……God gave me these tablets

Instead….It is, Trust me, why would I lie?

It’s not up to making faith easier. It’s up to us to come to the faith and believe. Why do you believe the creator of all things has to yield to you?

 

[Hector12]

No they can't. And, the Book of Abraham is true. Everything in it is true. So, what evidence of the Book of Mormon can be evaluated? There were letters and books written by people during Jesus time and also Moses time. Heck, there are people like you that don't believe the Holocaust never happened either. Belief isn't about physical proof. It's about getting down on your knees, asking the Father in the name of the Son if these things are true. And, do so with real intent, not with a double mind (saying you are trying to prove it's true but already believe and know it's not). Where does your faith exist in?

I was told by the Mormon missionaries who proselytized me that I should read The Book of Mormon, and pray to the Holy Ghost to tell me if the Book of Mormon is true. If the Book of Mormon is true, I would get "a burning in my bosom." I did all that, but I felt no "burning in my bosom."

The Book of Mormon makes assertions that are clearly untrue. It says that the American Indians are descended from Jewish refugees who cross the Atlantic Ocean about 600 B.C, DNA evidence clearly links the American Indians to people living today in northern Siberia.

The Book of Mormon says that there were horses in the Americas, back then. The Indians had long since then hunted horses to extinction. The Book of Mormon claims that wheat existed in the Americas. Wheat did not get there until after the time of Columbus.

The Mayans had a system of writing when the Book of Mormon says that Jesus came to the New World. Mayan writing makes no mention of this.

A manuscript cannot have two very different meanings. The manuscript from which Joseph Smith claimed to translate The Book of Abraham has been found and translated by people who really can read ancient Egyptian. The manuscript makes no mention of Abraham. It mentions ancient Egyptian deities.

 

[Cougarbear]

I was told by the Mormon missionaries who proselytized me that I should read The Book of Mormon, and pray to the Holy Ghost to tell me if the Book of Mormon is true. If the Book of Mormon is true, I would get "a burning in my bosom." I did all that, but I felt no "burning in my bosom."

The Book of Mormon makes assertions that are clearly untrue. It says that the American Indians are descended from Jewish refugees who cross the Atlantic Ocean about 600 B.C, DNA evidence clearly links the American Indians to people living today in northern Siberia.

The Book of Mormon says that there were horses in the Americas, back then. The Indians had long since then hunted horses to extinction. The Book of Mormon claims that wheat existed in the Americas. Wheat did not get there until after the time of Columbus.

The Mayans had a system of writing when the Book of Mormon says that Jesus came to the New World. Mayan writing makes no mention of this.

A manuscript cannot have two very different meanings. The manuscript from which Joseph Smith claimed to translate The Book of Abraham has been found and translated by people who really can read ancient Egyptian. The manuscript makes no mention of Abraham. It mentions ancient Egyptian deities.

You were asked and invited by the Missionaries to pray to Father in Heaven, in the name of Jesus Christ, to ask them if the Book of Mormon is true. And, if you do so with real intent with your faith not wavering and without a double mind that the Holy Ghost would bear witness to you of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. You started off wrong by praying to the Holy Ghost. Comprehension must be a challenge? As far as the burning in your bosom, that is just one way the Holy Ghost can testify the truthfulness. Not the only way. Sometimes it's a still small voice. Sometimes its a punch in the face with a vision or Dream for older people. Sometimes it's just the calmness you feel as the Holy Ghost comforts you.

Your next statement is why you did not receive the testimony from the Holy Ghost. You read it with a double mind. You also misunderstand that those who made the trek from Israel to the Americas were the only migration of people to the Americas. They were not. In fact, there are other groups written in The Book of Mormon that came before Lehi and Ishmael's families, both of witch were not of Judah. They were of Joseph through Ephraim and Menasseh. Thus, why would there be any DNA of modern Jews in American Indians? The ten tribes were carried away and assimilated into the other parts of the old world. Thus, those American Indians who are related to Lehi and Ishmael would not be related to the current Jews in Israel because they are of the tribe of Judah.

As far as animals and vegetation, check out LDSFAQs at https://www.jefflindsay.com/lds/
There are answers in there. You might want to brush up on current archeology as well. What we think of horses and what the ancient did in the America's may answer that question for you. As an example from Jeff's site, "By entering "*wheat*" as a search string on the new USDA Plants database, I found that there are numerous native North American species with names comprising the word "wheat." Specifically, there are multiple varieties each of "wheatgrass," "buckwheat," and "cowwheat," and one species called "desert Indianwheat." I have no evidence that any of these were cultivated or would even be worth cultivating. The point, though, is that English speakers have used common names for grains (like "wheat" or "barley") to describe some native plant species - something that could easily have happened with other peoples as well."

There is also this idea that "all" of the current American Indians and Hispanics of Mexico and South America are descended directly from Lehi and Ishmael. And, that The Book of Mormon civilizations were Mayans, Incas, Aztecs. There is no proof of this and therefore using Mayan writings is really nonsensical as a reason that The Book of Mormon is false. There are millions of acres still not uncovered in the Americas that new technology is now uncovering. Perhaps there will be pockets of what we call horses found that survived the killings of horses 10,000 years ago. Of course, our fold of human life goes back only 6,000 years ago to Adam and Eve.

A manuscript can't have different meanings? Heck, there are 40,000 different sects of Christianity because of the interpretations of the Bible have different meanings to them. Not only that, you assume that the writings of the Pearl of Great Price came from a specific part of the scrolls. Refer back to Jeff Lindsay's writings on this subject. It's funny how so much recently has found strong points of the Book of Abraham. See, patience is a key and an attribute of Jesus Christ. Something we all should have as well. Enjoy the reading if you are truly seeking truth. If not, you should consider not using old outdated attacks.

 

[Hector12]

Smithsonian Institution Statement Regarding the Book of Mormon​

Some Latter-day Saints, in their zeal to give tangible authenticity to the Book of Mormon, have told prospective converts that the Smithsonian Institution has used the Book of Mormon to verify sites in the New World. In response to numerous requests on this subject, the Smithsonian has issued the following paper detailing their position on the matter.
Information from the National Museum of Natural History Smithsonian Institution, Washington, D.C. 20560
Statement Regarding the Book of Mormon

1. The Smithsonian Institution has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archaeologists see no direct connection between the archaeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book.
2. The physical type of the American Indian is basically Mongoloid, being most closely related to that of the peoples of eastern, central, and northeastern Asia. Archaeological evidence indicates that the ancestors of the present Indians came into the New World — probably over a land bridge known to have existed in the Bering Strait region during the last Ice Age — in a continuing series of small migrations beginning from about 25,000 to 30,000 years ago.
3. Present evidence indicates that the first people to reach this continent from the East were the Norsemen who briefly visited the northeastern part of North America around A.D. 1000 and then settled in Greenland. There is nothing to show that they reached Mexico or Central America.
4. One of the main lines of evidence supporting the scientific finding that contacts with Old World civilizations, if indeed they occurred at all, were of very little significance for the development of American Indian civilizations, is the fact that none of the principal Old World domesticated food plants or animals (except the dog) occurred in the New World in pre-Columbian times. American Indians had no wheat, barley, oats, millet, rice, cattle, pigs, chickens, horses, donkeys, camels before 1492. (Camels and horses were in the Americas, along with the bison, mammoth, and mastodon, but all these animals became extinct around 10,000 B.C. at the time the early big game hunters spread across the Americas.)
5. Iron, steel, glass, and silk were not used in the New World before 1492 (except for occasional use of unsmelted meteoric iron). Native copper was worked used in various locations in pre-Columbian times, but true metallurgy was limited to southern Mexico and the Andean region, where its occurrence in late prehistoric times involved gold, silver, copper, and their alloys, but not iron.
6. There is a possibility that the spread of cultural traits across the Pacific to Mesoamerica and the northwestern coast of South America began several hundred years before the Christian era. However, any such inter-hemispheric contacts appear to have been the results of accidental voyages originating in eastern and southern Asia. It is by means certain that even such contacts occurred; certainly there were no contacts with the ancient Egyptians, Hebrews, or other peoples of Western Asia and the Near East.
7. No reputable Egyptologist or other specialist on Old World archaeology, and no expert on New World prehistory, has discovered or confirmed any relationship between archaeological remains in Mexico and archaeological remains in Egypt.
8. Reports of findings of ancient Egyptian, Hebrew, and other Old World writings in the New World in pre-Columbian contexts have frequently appeared in newspapers, magazines, and sensational books. None of these claims has stood up to examination by reputable scholars. No inscriptions using Old World forms of writing have been shown to have occurred in any part of the Americas before 1492 except for a few Norse rune stones which have been found in Greenland.
9. There are copies of the Book of Mormon in the library of the National Museum, of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution.
10. 
    
11. Smithsonian Institution Statement Regarding the Book of Mormon – Mormonism Research Ministry

 

[Hector12]

 

[Cougarbear]

Smithsonian Institution Statement Regarding the Book of Mormon​

Some Latter-day Saints, in their zeal to give tangible authenticity to the Book of Mormon, have told prospective converts that the Smithsonian Institution has used the Book of Mormon to verify sites in the New World. In response to numerous requests on this subject, the Smithsonian has issued the following paper detailing their position on the matter.
Information from the National Museum of Natural History Smithsonian Institution, Washington, D.C. 20560
Statement Regarding the Book of Mormon

1. The Smithsonian Institution has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archaeologists see no direct connection between the archaeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book.
2. The physical type of the American Indian is basically Mongoloid, being most closely related to that of the peoples of eastern, central, and northeastern Asia. Archaeological evidence indicates that the ancestors of the present Indians came into the New World — probably over a land bridge known to have existed in the Bering Strait region during the last Ice Age — in a continuing series of small migrations beginning from about 25,000 to 30,000 years ago.
3. Present evidence indicates that the first people to reach this continent from the East were the Norsemen who briefly visited the northeastern part of North America around A.D. 1000 and then settled in Greenland. There is nothing to show that they reached Mexico or Central America.
4. One of the main lines of evidence supporting the scientific finding that contacts with Old World civilizations, if indeed they occurred at all, were of very little significance for the development of American Indian civilizations, is the fact that none of the principal Old World domesticated food plants or animals (except the dog) occurred in the New World in pre-Columbian times. American Indians had no wheat, barley, oats, millet, rice, cattle, pigs, chickens, horses, donkeys, camels before 1492. (Camels and horses were in the Americas, along with the bison, mammoth, and mastodon, but all these animals became extinct around 10,000 B.C. at the time the early big game hunters spread across the Americas.)
5. Iron, steel, glass, and silk were not used in the New World before 1492 (except for occasional use of unsmelted meteoric iron). Native copper was worked used in various locations in pre-Columbian times, but true metallurgy was limited to southern Mexico and the Andean region, where its occurrence in late prehistoric times involved gold, silver, copper, and their alloys, but not iron.
6. There is a possibility that the spread of cultural traits across the Pacific to Mesoamerica and the northwestern coast of South America began several hundred years before the Christian era. However, any such inter-hemispheric contacts appear to have been the results of accidental voyages originating in eastern and southern Asia. It is by means certain that even such contacts occurred; certainly there were no contacts with the ancient Egyptians, Hebrews, or other peoples of Western Asia and the Near East.
7. No reputable Egyptologist or other specialist on Old World archaeology, and no expert on New World prehistory, has discovered or confirmed any relationship between archaeological remains in Mexico and archaeological remains in Egypt.
8. Reports of findings of ancient Egyptian, Hebrew, and other Old World writings in the New World in pre-Columbian contexts have frequently appeared in newspapers, magazines, and sensational books. None of these claims has stood up to examination by reputable scholars. No inscriptions using Old World forms of writing have been shown to have occurred in any part of the Americas before 1492 except for a few Norse rune stones which have been found in Greenland.
9. There are copies of the Book of Mormon in the library of the National Museum, of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution.
10. 
    
11. Smithsonian Institution Statement Regarding the Book of Mormon – Mormonism Research Ministry

I don't know anyone who has used the Smithsonian for this purpose. You people go to lying lengths to try and fool people. Again, you can look on www.jefflindsay.com under LDSFAQs and read a lot about these issues and find that none of the above proves that The Book of Mormon is not true. Just take the naming of foods, animals and minerals. If Joseph Smith had written down the things of the Americas in 600 B.C.. to 421 A.D. in their terms, we would have no context of what was being described. So, the foods, animals and minerals we understand were used to describe what they ate and used. The fact is, there was American types of wheat, barely, oats...And, if you look at the Hebrew word for horse, it can mean deer. No one road the horses of that time. Good grief. Such lengths people go to to look foolish.

 

[Hector12]

I don't know anyone who has used the Smithsonian for this purpose. You people go to lying lengths to try and fool people. Again, you can look on www.jefflindsay.com under LDSFAQs and read a lot about these issues and find that none of the above proves that The Book of Mormon is not true. Just take the naming of foods, animals and minerals. If Joseph Smith had written down the things of the Americas in 600 B.C.. to 421 A.D. in their terms, we would have no context of what was being described. So, the foods, animals and minerals we understand were used to describe what they ate and used. The fact is, there was American types of wheat, barely, oats...And, if you look at the Hebrew word for horse, it can mean deer. No one road the horses of that time. Good grief. Such lengths people go to to look foolish.

Mormons look foolish when they invent excuses to believe what is clearly untrue. I enjoy talking to Mormon missionaries. They are nice boys. They also know less about their faith than I do. When I ask them about the Book of Abraham they have never heard of it.

I figured out on my own that the manuscript from which Joseph Smith claimed to translate the Book of Abraham was the Book of the Dead. I went to a library and checked out a book that had copies of the Book of the Dead and translations. The similarity between the copies in the book, and the manuscript discovered in 1966 were astonishing.

The Mormon missionaries I was talking to were astonished too. They could not answer my arguments.