Zone1 Mormons are fine, but I have to call BS on the golden plates story.

[Hector12]

I don’t buy the Church of Latter Day Saints. I certainly don’t buy Islam. My own theory is pretty simple. I have chosen to believe something which I consider almost divinely inspired.

I believe in God. But I don’t believe that God believes in religion.

I am an Anglican. That is a traditional Episcopalian who uses the 1928 Book of Common Prayer.

 

[Cougarbear]

It does not matter when the Book of the Dead was found. What matters is that Joseph Smith pretended to translate from it when he composed the Book of Abraham. No non Mormon who can really read Joseph Smith's manuscript agrees with Joseph Smith so called "translation." None of them have any respect for the Mormon convoluted efforts to explain the fraud.

I have never lied about Mormonism. The Mormon missionaries I talked to did not lie, but Joseph Smith lied to them.

If Joseph Smith was alive today I can see him with a megachurch and a nationally broadcast television ministry paid for largely by contributions from poor, elderly, lonely women. Those contributions would also finance Joseph Smith's lavish life style. Eventually Smith would be discredited by a sex scandal involving underage girls. Nevertheless his partisans would continue to believe in him. They would think he had been framed.

What is wrong with you? The Book of the Dead wasn’t found until after Joseph wrote the Book of Abraham. So how could he have used the unknown book?
The Church continued after Joseph was murdered for his beliefs. It continued with the same directions as laid out in the Doctrine and Covenants. Since then, nothing much has changed. The Church has grown but not the same way as you think. We utilize technology but not weekly mega meetings on TV. You are so ignorant while trying to tear down people’s beliefs.

 

[ninja007]

I've read a fair amount on the various major religions and I have to say, the story of Angel Moroni and the Golden Plates is the most suspect of all the stories I've read. Is there a Mormon out there who can better explain or defend why he or she believes these plates exist and were given to the Prophet Joseph to transcribe the Book of Mormon? This is not a knock on Mormons I have friends who are Mormons and they are very nice people and do lots of good things in the community and have good families. It's the Golden Plates story that just sounds like pure fantasy to me.

Basics of Mormonism​

Are Mormons Christians as they claim? We can discover if they are by seeing if they uphold the Christian distinctives that are the essential teachings in the bible? On almost all points from the beginning of God and man in the Garden of eden to the after life they have a different view than the Holy Scriptures. They believe man is a spirit creature finding his origin in heaven before coming to earth. That Christ is also in the same class as man as well as the spirit brother of Lucifer, therefore we are all spirit brothers. They teach that we incarnate on earth to be offered a way to exaltation where we can become a God on our own planet. We then can have many wives who will birth numerous spirit children and repeat the process as all other Gods did before us.

Mormonism teaches God was first a mortal man He lived on a planet like our own and became exalted becoming a God. That God has a body just as we do. Christ is not the one God, but just one of the many exalted children of Elohim. The Trinity is made up of three main Gods with many more as well.

They also teach that there are as many Gods as there are stars and that we can become a God by obedience to the Mormon gospel. Salvation is by baptism as the gate, and then the numerous commands which includes tithing. If one does not repent in this life they have another chance in the afterlife as they are visited by spirit missionaries who will teach them the gospel. But first they are baptized by proxy (another takes their place) in the temple to have them prepared to hear it.

Jesus was conceived as Mary was visited by God the father who had sex with her and had the offspring Jesus. Jesus then was married at Cana and had many wives as a polygamist. Jesus also had many children and they believe Joseph Smith their founder is a descendant of Jesus.

The have 12 apostles in their church structure and the president of the Church is a living prophet that can speak new Scripture.So the bible continues to be made.

Mormons believe they are the only true and restored Church on earth, although lately they have opted for a softer view, it is for the purpose of making inroads into Christian Church to draw people out.

They do not believe the bible was translated correctly and so the book of Mormon was necessary to explain and teach the many things missing and corrupted. Without this translation by Joseph smith their prophet they believe the gospel would have been completely lost.

 

[Hector12]

You are so ignorant while trying to tear down people’s beliefs.

The people with the beliefs are ignorant of the history of pre Columbian American history and the judgment of experts about the so called Book of Abraham manuscript.

I detected the fraud of the Book of Abraham before I learned that the experts came to the same conclusion. The Mormon missionaries who tried to convert me were shocked and dismayed. I wonder if they are still Mormons. If they had any sense they left that religion. I hope they did not become atheists like many ex Mormons do.

 

[onefour1]

Quick Answers About the Book of Abraham​

 

[Hector12]

Quick Answers About the Book of Abraham​

People who desperately want to believe an obvious falsehood can compose twisted excuses for doing so.

 

[surada]

People who desperately want to believe an obvious falsehood can compose twisted excuses for doing so.

Great link. There was no Ur of the Chaldeans in the time of Abraham. Abraham probably came from Urfa near Haran in southern Syria. The Ugarit texts from Ras Shamra are Canaanite and older than Genesis.

 

[Cougarbear]

The people with the beliefs are ignorant of the history of pre Columbian American history and the judgment of experts about the so called Book of Abraham manuscript.

I detected the fraud of the Book of Abraham before I learned that the experts came to the same conclusion. The Mormon missionaries who tried to convert me were shocked and dismayed. I wonder if they are still Mormons. If they had any sense they left that religion. I hope they did not become atheists like many ex Mormons do.

Yet, you thought Joseph Smith stole it from a book that didn't exist when he wrote the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses. So, you lied. Why should I or anyone else believe what you write? I went to BYU and am well aware of the archeological information the Church has which is far greater than your own. It is you that is ignorant of the archeological evidence. Again, read www.jefflindsay.com and see how ignorant you really are. Others reading our posts are already reading it and finding lots of surprises.

 

[Hector12]

Yet, you thought Joseph Smith stole it from a book that didn't exist when he wrote the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses. So, you lied. Why should I or anyone else believe what you write? I went to BYU and am well aware of the archeological information the Church has which is far greater than your own. It is you that is ignorant of the archeological evidence. Again, read www.jefflindsay.com and see how ignorant you really are. Others reading our posts are already reading it and finding lots of surprises.

 

[Hector12]

Yet, you thought Joseph Smith stole it from a book that didn't exist when he wrote the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses. So, you lied. Why should I or anyone else believe what you write? I went to BYU and am well aware of the archeological information the Church has which is far greater than your own. It is you that is ignorant of the archeological evidence. Again, read www.jefflindsay.com and see how ignorant you really are. Others reading our posts are already reading it and finding lots of surprises.

What archaeological evidence are you talking about?​

----------

Archaeology and the Book of Mormon​

Professor Emeritus of Anthropology at Yale University, wrote,

As far as I know there is not one professionally trained archaeologist, who is not a Mormon, who sees any scientific justification for believing the historicity of the Book of Mormon, and I would like to state that there are quite a few Mormon archaeologists who join this group.[132]

In 1955, Thomas Stuart Ferguson, an attorney and the founder of the NWAF, received five years of funding from the LDS Church and the NWAF then began to dig throughout Mesoamerica for evidence of the veracity of the Book of Mormon claims. In a 1961 newsletter, Ferguson predicted that although nothing had been found, the Book of Mormon cities would be found within 10 years. The NWAF became part of BYU in 1961 and Ferguson was removed from the director position.

Eleven years after Ferguson was no longer affiliated with the NWAF, in 1972 Christian scholar Hal Hougey wrote Ferguson questioning the progress given the stated timetable in which the cities would be found.[133] Replying to Hougey, as well as other secular and non-secular requests, Ferguson wrote in a letter dated 5 June 1972: "Ten years have passed .... I had sincerely hoped that Book-of-Mormon cities would be positively identified within 10 years—and time has proved me wrong in my anticipation."[133]

In 1976, fifteen years removed from any archaeological involvement with the NWAF, referring to his own paper, Ferguson wrote a letter in which he stated:

The real implication of the paper is that you can't set the Book-of-Mormon geography down anywhere—because it is fictional and will never meet the requirements of the dirt-archaeology. I should say—what is in the ground will never conform to what is in the book.[134]

Footnotes

1. 132.. Coe 1973, pp. 41–46
2. 133. Jump up to:a b Larson 1990, pp. 76
3. 134. Larson 1990, pp. 79

Archaeology and the Book of Mormon - Wikipedia.

----------

Criticism of the Book of Abraham​

Scholars have dated the Joseph Smith Papyri to the late Ptolemaic period (c. 150 BC), 1500 years after Abraham's supposed lifetime.[48][53][54][55][56] This fact—combined with the presence of apparent anachronisms within the book itselfhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Book_of_Abraham#cite_note-59—seems to contradict Smith's statements that the papyri feature the "handwriting of Abraham" which had been "written by his own hand".[58]

Footnotes:

1. 48. Reeve & Parshall (2010), p. 269.
2. 49.^ Jump up to:a b Ashment (2000), p. 126.
3. 50.^ Rhodes (2005), p. 1.
4. 51.^ Baer (1968), pp. 116–17.
5. 52.^ Wilson et al. (1968), p. 98.
6. 53.^ Jump up to:a b Baer (1968), p. 111.
7. 54.^ Wilson et al. (1968), pp. 95–96.
8. 55.^ Nibley (1975), p. 3.
9. 56.^ Jump up to:a b Rhodes (1988), pp. 51–53.
10. 57.^ Thompson (1995), pp. 152–56.
11. 58.^ The source of Joseph Smith's quotes cited here are found in Smith (1842), p. 704 and Smith (1990), p. 169, respectively.
13. Criticism of the Book of Abraham - Wikipedia.

 

[surada]

They've known about the Egyptian book of the dead since 1840.

Book of the Dead - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[surada]

They've known about the Egyptian book of the dead since 1840.

How the Book of Abraham Exposes the False Nature of Mormonism | Cold Case Christianity

By taking an evidential approach to Christian and Mormon scripture, I confirmed the veracity of Christianity and guarded myself from the falsity of Mormonism

coldcasechristianity.com

 

[Hector12]

They've known about the Egyptian book of the dead since 1840.

Book of the Dead - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

It does not matter when they knew about the Egyptian Book of the Dead. What matters is that the manuscript from which Joseph Smith pretended to translate the Book of Abraham was a copy of the Book of the Dead.

 

[surada]

It does not matter when they knew about the Egyptian Book of the Dead. What matters is that the manuscript from which Joseph Smith pretended to translate the Book of Abraham was a copy of the Book of the Dead.

Joseph Smith was a con man.

How the Book of Abraham Exposes the False Nature of Mormonism | Cold Case Christianity

By taking an evidential approach to Christian and Mormon scripture, I confirmed the veracity of Christianity and guarded myself from the falsity of Mormonism

coldcasechristianity.com

 

[Hector12]

Joseph Smith was a con man.

How the Book of Abraham Exposes the False Nature of Mormonism | Cold Case Christianity

By taking an evidential approach to Christian and Mormon scripture, I confirmed the veracity of Christianity and guarded myself from the falsity of Mormonism

coldcasechristianity.com

He was also a pedophile. Many of the girls he "married" were underage.

 

[Cougarbear]

What archaeological evidence are you talking about?​

----------

Archaeology and the Book of Mormon​

Professor Emeritus of Anthropology at Yale University, wrote,


In 1955, Thomas Stuart Ferguson, an attorney and the founder of the NWAF, received five years of funding from the LDS Church and the NWAF then began to dig throughout Mesoamerica for evidence of the veracity of the Book of Mormon claims. In a 1961 newsletter, Ferguson predicted that although nothing had been found, the Book of Mormon cities would be found within 10 years. The NWAF became part of BYU in 1961 and Ferguson was removed from the director position.

Eleven years after Ferguson was no longer affiliated with the NWAF, in 1972 Christian scholar Hal Hougey wrote Ferguson questioning the progress given the stated timetable in which the cities would be found.[133] Replying to Hougey, as well as other secular and non-secular requests, Ferguson wrote in a letter dated 5 June 1972: "Ten years have passed .... I had sincerely hoped that Book-of-Mormon cities would be positively identified within 10 years—and time has proved me wrong in my anticipation."[133]

In 1976, fifteen years removed from any archaeological involvement with the NWAF, referring to his own paper, Ferguson wrote a letter in which he stated:



Footnotes

1. 132.. Coe 1973, pp. 41–46
2. 133. Jump up to:a b Larson 1990, pp. 76
3. 134. Larson 1990, pp. 79

Archaeology and the Book of Mormon - Wikipedia.

----------

Criticism of the Book of Abraham​

Scholars have dated the Joseph Smith Papyri to the late Ptolemaic period (c. 150 BC), 1500 years after Abraham's supposed lifetime.[48][53][54][55][56] This fact—combined with the presence of apparent anachronisms within the book itselfCriticism of the Book of Abraham - Wikipedia—seems to contradict Smith's statements that the papyri feature the "handwriting of Abraham" which had been "written by his own hand".[58]

Footnotes:

1. 48. Reeve & Parshall (2010), p. 269.
2. 49.^ Jump up to:a b Ashment (2000), p. 126.
3. 50.^ Rhodes (2005), p. 1.
4. 51.^ Baer (1968), pp. 116–17.
5. 52.^ Wilson et al. (1968), p. 98.
6. 53.^ Jump up to:a b Baer (1968), p. 111.
7. 54.^ Wilson et al. (1968), pp. 95–96.
8. 55.^ Nibley (1975), p. 3.
9. 56.^ Jump up to:a b Rhodes (1988), pp. 51–53.
10. 57.^ Thompson (1995), pp. 152–56.
11. 58.^ The source of Joseph Smith's quotes cited here are found in Smith (1842), p. 704 and Smith (1990), p. 169, respectively.
13. Criticism of the Book of Abraham - Wikipedia.

Again, you only want to use your old outdated references. I again challenge you to look at www.jefflindsay.com before I'd begin to look at this old outdated bullcrap anti-Mormon stuff. I also note that you made no reference to your mistake about Joseph Smith using the Book of the Dead.

 

[Seymour Flops]

I've read a fair amount on the various major religions and I have to say, the story of Angel Moroni and the Golden Plates is the most suspect of all the stories I've read. Is there a Mormon out there who can better explain or defend why he or she believes these plates exist and were given to the Prophet Joseph to transcribe the Book of Mormon? This is not a knock on Mormons I have friends who are Mormons and they are very nice people and do lots of good things in the community and have good families. It's the Golden Plates story that just sounds like pure fantasy to me.

It does, yes. But so do most of the stories of Jesus. The water into wine, the rising from the dead, the casting out of the demons, on and on.

Is those stories any more credible for being set two thousand years ago?

 

[Hector12]

Again, you only want to use your old outdated references. I again challenge you to look at www.jefflindsay.com before I'd begin to look at this old outdated bullcrap anti-Mormon stuff. I also note that you made no reference to your mistake about Joseph Smith using the Book of the Dead.

I challenge you to explain what that website says using your own words. If you cannot do that you do not understand it. Keep in mind I exposed the fraud of the Book of Abraham myself. It was only later that I learned that the experts agreed with me.

 

[MarathonMike]

It does, yes. But so do most of the stories of Jesus. The water into wine, the rising from the dead, the casting out of the demons, on and on.

Is those stories any more credible for being set two thousand years ago?

As I've posted I doubt the early Christian stories as well. I think the difference is, this apparently occurred around 1820 in our country and the Golden Plates were put in a cave in a hill in New York. Why hasn't there been a concerted effort to find the plates? There have been enormous undertakings to find Noah's Ark and other artifacts of Christianity. No geological surveys or search teams for the Golden Plates? Why not?

 

[Cougarbear]

I challenge you to explain what that website says using your own words. If you cannot do that you do not understand it. Keep in mind I exposed the fraud of the Book of Abraham myself. It was only later that I learned that the experts agreed with me.

If you'd bother going onto the website, you would know that the work is extensive and I'd not be able to do what you want. And, why did you try to lie about the Prophet using the Book of the Dead?