Murderer Chauvin loses appeal

[pknopp]

Frankly the guy was far too wasted to allow the cops to write him a summons.
Do you seriously think the cops won't arrest a man who has passed out fake currency?

Without an investigation? Yeah, I don't expect an arrest. It is not illegal to use a fake $20 unless you know it is illegal. It happens all the time. You get one in change and use it the next time you buy something.

You get the guys name and contact information and start an investigation. If you can find any actual evidence he knew he was passing a bad bill, you get an arrest warrant.


It's a federal crime to make, use, or possess counterfeit U.S. currency with the intent to defraud. A person charged with counterfeiting U.S. currency can face stiff felony penalties.

In order to convict a defendant of counterfeiting, the prosecutor must prove that:

• the counterfeit currency looked legitimate enough to deceive an ordinary, unsuspecting person, and
• the defendant used, made, or possessed the counterfeit current with the intent to defraud another (criminal intent).

The prosecutor must prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt.

A defendant can't be convicted of possessing or using counterfeit currency if they didn't know it was counterfeit. A conviction requires knowledge and intent to defraud another. If a person received the bills through a prior transaction (say getting change back at a store) and then tries to pay for additional goods with the bogus bills, the person doesn't have the required criminal intent for a conviction. But the standard for a conviction is much higher than for an arrest or charges.

Can I Be Charged With Using Counterfeit Money If I Didn't Know It Was Fake?

 

[Robert W]

Funny he was saying he couldn’t breath before the knee.


Floyd’s drug use and heart condition had nothing to do with my skin color.


He was a heart attack waiting to happen.


Irrelevant. If one has a physical or genetic heart condition of plaque buildup in the arteries, if untreated, the buildup gets worse over time. It is not a static condition.

There’s no reason whatsoever to think he couldn’t have had a heart attack that day.


Floyd was not smothered with a pillow.


Nobody was “out to get” him.


Irrelevant. He was scared before they took him from his vehicle.


Negative. You don’t know that.

Without an investigation? Yeah, I don't expect an arrest. It is not illegal to use a fake $20 unless you know it is illegal. It happens all the time. You get one in change and use it the next time you buy something.

You get the guys name and contact information and start an investigation. If you can find any actual evidence he knew he was passing a bad bill, you get an arrest warrant.


It's a federal crime to make, use, or possess counterfeit U.S. currency with the intent to defraud. A person charged with counterfeiting U.S. currency can face stiff felony penalties.

In order to convict a defendant of counterfeiting, the prosecutor must prove that:

• • the counterfeit currency looked legitimate enough to deceive an ordinary, unsuspecting person, and
  • the defendant used, made, or possessed the counterfeit current with the intent to defraud another (criminal intent).

The prosecutor must prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt.

A defendant can't be convicted of possessing or using counterfeit currency if they didn't know it was counterfeit. A conviction requires knowledge and intent to defraud another. If a person received the bills through a prior transaction (say getting change back at a store) and then tries to pay for additional goods with the bogus bills, the person doesn't have the required criminal intent for a conviction. But the standard for a conviction is much higher than for an arrest or charges.

Can I Be Charged With Using Counterfeit Money If I Didn't Know It Was Fake?

Thanks for the complete explanation. Floyd was fine until he fought the cops. He caused his own problems.

 

[pknopp]

Thanks for the complete explanation. Floyd was fine until he fought the cops. He caused his own problems.

If he was "fine" there is NO arrest attempt.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

As previously stated:

So you, having no medical experience whatsoever, believe that the medical expert who conducted the autopsy is wrong. Looks like you’re now, finally, in agreement with this statement.

This is precisely why I wouldn’t answer your question.

You did exactly as I predicted you would and that this was why you kept hounding me with that particular question: make it about my lack of knowledge of pathology, despite the fact that I specifically told you multiple times that I was not questioning his knowledge and expertise and that this was not the reason I disagreed with him.

 

[XponentialChaos]

This is precisely why I wouldn’t answer your question.

You did exactly as I predicted you would and that this was why you kept hounding me with that particular question: make it about my lack of knowledge of pathology, despite the fact that I specifically told you multiple times that I was not questioning his knowledge and expertise and that this was not the reason I disagreed with him.

So you admit you were dodging the question. I don’t see what you’re getting mad at me about because you chose to dodge the question.

You’re not questioning his knowledge of pathology, you just think he’s wrong about the conclusion he made despite the fact that you have no knowledge of pathology whatsoever. Correct?

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

So you admit you were dodging the question. I don’t see what you’re getting mad at me about because you chose to dodge the question.

Let me clarify: I was not inclined to answer the way you wanted because I knew you would simply use it against me.

You’re not questioning his knowledge of pathology, you just think he’s wrong about the conclusion he made despite the fact that you have no knowledge of pathology whatsoever. Correct?

Correct.

But my lack of knowledge is irrelevant to why I disagree with his conclusion.

You didn’t answer my question: What logic were you referring to?

 

[XponentialChaos]

Correct.

But my lack of knowledge is irrelevant to why I disagree with his conclusion.

Your lack of medical knowledge is very relevant when you say you believe the medical expert is wrong.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Your lack of medical knowledge is very relevant when you say you believe the medical expert is wrong.

Wrong. Not when my opinion is based on what I believe to be his bowing to pressure.

Two questions for you:

1.) If you know and have already acknowledged that my doubt has nothing to do with his expertise, why do you think it’s relevant to my argument?

2.) Once again, you said I have “an inability to use simple logic”, what logic are you referring to?

 

[SavannahMann]

Wrong. Not when my opinion is based on what I believe to be his bowing to pressure.

Two questions for you:

1.) If you know and have already acknowledged that my doubt has nothing to do with his expertise, why do you think it’s relevant to my argument?

2.) Once again, you said I have “an inability to use simple logic”, what logic are you referring to?

Perhaps you can help me. I’ve read your posts. And the argument that the experts bowed to political pressure. One problem with that. There are a million doctors in this country. A million medical doctors. And somehow none of them with their years of education and training see what you see.

Now the argument that they are all somehow swayed by fear of the mob, political pressure, and the rest doesn’t sit too well with me. It seems rather unlikely if you get my point.

I looked up how many Doctors when people insisted that it was obvious that Floyd died of an overdose.

Another problem. During cross examination the Defense Expert for Chauvin said that with just four minutes of restricted blood flow to the head, irreversible brain damage would occur. Then the Defense expert was questioned about the placement of the knee and admitted that it could be enough to restrict that blood flow. We know Chauvin knelt on Floyd for twice that time.

The testimony and evidence shows that there were a number of contributing factors. But the final thing. The proverbial straw was the actions of Chauvin. Actions that he had been told not to do. Actions that he had been trained not to do. Actions that he had been told were dangerous.

We can’t ignore those actions. And we can’t pretend that the actions aren’t well known to be dangerous.

How To Prevent Positional Asphyxia

By taking precautions in how people are restrained and by monitoring restrained subjects, officers can reduce the potential for in-custody death.

www.policemag.com

 

[XponentialChaos]

Wrong. Not when my opinion is based on what I believe to be his bowing to pressure.

So do you believe that he knowingly lied about his conclusion that this was a homicide?

 

[JoeB131]

This is my impression of the event when Floyd died. Earlier at his car, Floyd began the chant "I can't breathe" Well what the hell prevented him from breathing at his own car?
Floyd was walked from his car to the police car that was across a street parked by a market. As he was put into the car, he was constantly resisting being arrested and held.
To the point he managed to resist to the point a cop opened the opposite door of the police car and try to restrain Floyd. Floyd though protesting was so powerful he managed to escape the police car on the opposite side of where he was forced into the car. In the street he kept fighting the cops. The cops saw how strong this man was and then held him down with a police hold. An expert testified that this was not a homicide at all.
Still a police officer is in prison. Denied his right to a fair trial.

He got a fair trial. It's just you don't have much of a defense when there is a nine-minute tape of you murdering a man while onlookers PLEAD FOR HIS LIFE!

Tell me why you try to make this about race? That cop had extensive experience with blacks. Why didn't he kill the other blacks he arrested?
Wilson did not try to pull him into the cop car. Anyway, cops routinely put suspects into the patrol car and investigate the entire event.

Make up your mind, did he try to pull Brown into the car or not?

The problem was that Wilson's story is full of holes, but the DA let him lie his ass off in front of the grand jury, ignored witnesses that said Brown had his hands up, and even put a crazy person up as a witness who said she went down town that day to "improve her opinion of (N-words)."

Did Darren Wilson lose his job?


Wilson had been a police officer for six years in Ferguson and nearby Jennings. Wilson resigned from the Ferguson Police Department shortly after a grand jury decided not to indict him for the Brown shooting.Jan 27, 2016

Yes, Wilson was fired from Jennings because the entire police department had to be disbanded for rampant corruption. He should have been put on trial, but a DA who should have recused himself and was voted out of office instead acted like his defense attorney.

 

[JoeB131]

Grand Kleagle Say what?

Funny he was saying he couldn’t breath before the knee.

Sounds like a good reason to NOT put a knee on his neck.

Floyd’s drug use and heart condition had nothing to do with my skin color.

No, but the fact you won't be abused by police and can get easy access to medical care does.

He was a heart attack waiting to happen.

Maybe. But he didn't die of a heart attack. He died because a Nazi choked him for 9 minutes.

Irrelevant. If one has a physical or genetic heart condition of plaque buildup in the arteries, if untreated, the buildup gets worse over time. It is not a static condition.

There’s no reason whatsoever to think he couldn’t have had a heart attack that day.

But he didn't have a heart attack.. he was choked to death by a Nazi.

Floyd was not smothered with a pillow.

No, he was smothered by a Nazi Cop. Glad to have straightened that out for you.

Negative. You don’t know that.

Three cornoners and a jury agree with me, so, yeah, I can know that.

Aren't you late for a Cross-burning?

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Perhaps you can help me. I’ve read your posts. And the argument that the experts bowed to political pressure. One problem with that. There are a million doctors in this country. A million medical doctors. And somehow none of them with their years of education and training see what you see.

How do you know this?

Now the argument that they are all somehow swayed by fear of the mob, political pressure, and the rest doesn’t sit too well with me. It seems rather unlikely if you get my point.

All of who? I’m talking about one ME.

I looked up how many Doctors when people insisted that it was obvious that Floyd died of an overdose.

I never insisted it was obvious. I have, however, said there’s no reason to rule it out.

Another problem. During cross examination the Defense Expert for Chauvin said that with just four minutes of restricted blood flow to the head, irreversible brain damage would occur. Then the Defense expert was questioned about the placement of the knee and admitted that it could be enough to restrict that blood flow. We know Chauvin knelt on Floyd for twice that time.

How much weight would be needed and did Chauvin apply that much weight with one knee?

There’s a million questions that are not being answered here and to me, some of these answers might very well mean the difference between guilt and innocence.

The testimony and evidence shows that there were a number of contributing factors. But the final thing. The proverbial straw was the actions of Chauvin. Actions that he had been told not to do. Actions that he had been trained not to do. Actions that he had been told were dangerous.

We can’t ignore those actions. And we can’t pretend that the actions aren’t well known to be dangerous.

No doubt Chauvin at the very least should have been reprimanded for using an improper procedure. But I cannot discount the tremendous political, public and social pressure to hang Chauvin.

As pointed out to Xchaos, Maxine Waters and other politicians and celebrities were screaming for a guilty verdict even before the trial started. Half the country wanted to lynch Chauvin and you don’t think that could have been an influencing factor?

Have you ever heard of the case of the West Memphis Three?

If you haven’t, let me tell you; if you have, let me remind you: Three young men were wrongly convicted for the rape and murder of three little boys and were sentenced to life plus forty years; life in prison and to death, respectively.

Guess whose flawed autopsy and testimony helped get these guys wrongly convicted? That’s right, the medical examiner’s.

The point is, no one - not even medical examiners - is immune to outside pressure and the pressure and emotions in this case were especially weighty.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

So do you believe that he knowingly lied about his conclusion that this was a homicide?

Nope.

Are you going to answer my questions or not?

 

[pknopp]

How do you know this?


All of who? I’m talking about one ME.


I never insisted it was obvious. I have, however, said there’s no reason to rule it out.


How much weight would be needed and did Chauvin apply that much weight with one knee?

There’s a million questions that are not being answered here and to me, some of these answers might very well mean the difference between guilt and innocence.


No doubt Chauvin at the very least should have been reprimanded for using an improper procedure. But I cannot discount the tremendous political, public and social pressure to hang Chauvin.

As pointed out to Xchaos, Maxine Waters and other politicians and celebrities were screaming for a guilty verdict even before the trial started. Half the country wanted to lynch Chauvin and you don’t think that could have been an influencing factor?

Have you ever heard of the case of the West Memphis Three?

If you haven’t, let me tell you; if you have, let me remind you: Three young men were wrongly convicted for the rape and murder of three little boys and were sentenced to life plus forty years; life in prison and to death, respectively.

Guess whose flawed autopsy and testimony helped get these guys wrongly convicted? That’s right, the medical examiner’s.

The point is, no one - not even medical examiners - is immune to outside pressure and the pressure and emotions in this case were especially weighty.

We all watched as a man was struggling to breathe while Chauvin just sat there for 9.5 minutes with his knee on his neck.

On doesn't need a M.E. to understand what he did needed punished.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Grand Kleagle Say what?



Sounds like a good reason to NOT put a knee on his neck.

Sounds like a good reason not to do drugs with a heart condition.

No, but the fact you won't be abused by police and can get easy access to medical care does.

Irrelevant.

Maybe. But he didn't die of a heart attack.

You don’t know that.

But he didn't have a heart attack..

You don’t know that.

No, he was smothered by a Nazi Cop.

Not deliberately with a pillow. It’s a flawed analogy.

Three cornoners and a jury agree with me, so, yeah, I can know that.

Coroners and juries have been wrong before.

Aren't you late for a Cross-burning?

Aren’t you late for your shock therapy?

 

[XponentialChaos]

Nope.

So you believe the medical expert is wrong yet you don't question his expertise in his field and you don't think he lied?

 

[SavannahMann]

How do you know this?


All of who? I’m talking about one ME.


I never insisted it was obvious. I have, however, said there’s no reason to rule it out.


How much weight would be needed and did Chauvin apply that much weight with one knee?

There’s a million questions that are not being answered here and to me, some of these answers might very well mean the difference between guilt and innocence.


No doubt Chauvin at the very least should have been reprimanded for using an improper procedure. But I cannot discount the tremendous political, public and social pressure to hang Chauvin.

As pointed out to Xchaos, Maxine Waters and other politicians and celebrities were screaming for a guilty verdict even before the trial started. Half the country wanted to lynch Chauvin and you don’t think that could have been an influencing factor?

Have you ever heard of the case of the West Memphis Three?

If you haven’t, let me tell you; if you have, let me remind you: Three young men were wrongly convicted for the rape and murder of three little boys and were sentenced to life plus forty years; life in prison and to death, respectively.

Guess whose flawed autopsy and testimony helped get these guys wrongly convicted? That’s right, the medical examiner’s.

The point is, no one - not even medical examiners - is immune to outside pressure and the pressure and emotions in this case were especially weighty.

Chauvin’s weight was calculated by the Cardiologist who testified in the trial, and how much pressure was on the neck. It was more than enough to restrict blood flow according to the testimony. Testimony that the Defense did not present a witness to challenge, and didn’t do much to counter during cross.

Mistakes do happen. And I am all for correcting mistakes. However, I can’t get worked up that someone missed something in a case like this. The Defense Coroner said he would rule the death undetermined. No clear cause. That was his direct testimony when called by the Defense. His Cross Examination was death to the entire case for Chauvin. He sank Chauvin.

I’ve watched a lot of trials. A few in person, and more than a few online. I’ve read books about them. The best outcomes for the defense always come when the Defense actively challenges every piece of evidence. It worked for many public defendants over the years. OJ for one, Rittenhouse, and even the Bundy’s.

But in none of the cases did the Defense win when they did a half hearted job. Some cases were half hearted because the evidence was so strong. Others were that way because they just didn’t have the funding. Chauvin had the funding. The evidence against him was just that strong.

Team Chauvin put forth a couple experts who tried to throw doubt on the Prosecution’s case. The Coroner we’ve discussed to death. The other was a Use of Force expert. The expert was just as bad for Chauvin as the Coroner was. The expert testified that Chauvin was using a common technique. Used hundreds of times a day.

Use-of-force expert testifies that Chauvin justified in deadly arrest of Floyd

Defense attorneys in the murder trial of Derek Chauvin on Tuesday called an expert witness who testified that the former Minneapolis police officer was justified and reasonable in his use of force during his arrest of George Floyd.

www.reuters.com

The cross examination was again brutal. The Prosecution asked the expert to identify the resistance when Floyd was unconscious. The expert couldn’t.

So the Defense Experts couldn’t spin the story that Chauvin was justified. They tried, God bless them, they tried. But they came off as weak and sort of mealy mouthed.

The question came down to this. Would Floyd have died if Chauvin didn’t kneel on him? The answer was a resounding almost certainly not. While anything is possible, Floyd dying without the actions of Chauvin, is an extremely remote possibility.

That’s where our Legal System comes in. To convict, the jury has to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. After hearing the evidence, I don’t have much in the way of doubts, much less any I would consider reasonable. I can see where the Jury didn’t have any reasonable doubts either.

The first round of Appeals has run, and nobody, including the Supreme Court, has found a reason to overturn the verdict. Now, if you doubt the conclusions of experts, then you have paths to explore. Those paths are the appeals process. And round one has been done, and denied. This isn’t always the case.

One of those cases I mentioned I read about, was the trial of Jim Williams in my own local area, Savannah. Jim Williams was first tried for Murder and got a hung jury. He got a second trial, and was convicted, but the conviction was overturned and returned for a retrial by the Appeals Court. The third trial, where local legend lawyer Sonny Seiler took the defense, was an acquittal.

Seiler created doubt in the minds of the Jurors, by challenging every piece of evidence. He showed the scientific evidence, like residue on the hands, was contaminated by sloppy police work. He showed that the evidence at the scene had been collected poorly as well, as evidenced by the Police’s own photographs and reports.

Sonny Seiler created a reasonable doubt that the story told by the Prosecution was true. Jim Williams was acquitted.

Now. I’m in favor of acquittals. I’m one of those who was taught, and firmly believes that it is better for a thousand guilty men to go free, than one innocent man go to prison. So I wholeheartedly support acquittals. I even supported the acquittal of the Bundy’s, people who I have called asshats many times.

I watch the trials, and when I can’t watch, I read the synopsis, and sometimes even watch the summaries of important testimony. I can usually get a feeling before the trial is over what is going to happen. Sometimes I know the outcome before the trial is held. One example of that is the McMichaels of Brunswick Georgia.

To Chauvin again. I knew he would be found guilty. And I knew why he looked like a deer in the headlights through the whole process. People claim he was sacrificed to the BLM, Leftists, ANTIFA, and whatever groups. That’s not true. Oh Chauvin was Sacrificed. But not to the Left. Chauvin was sacrificed to White Middle Class America.

The Police were not about to explain that Chauvin had many complaints, of which most were upheld for violating policy. They were not going to explain that Chauvin had knelt on people until they passed out before. They were not going to explain why Chauvin was still a cop. They were not going to admit that while they “reprimanded” Chauvin they had patted him on the back. Thus encouraging his brutality as a good thing while teaching him the rules were bullshit that had to be mouthed, but not taken seriously.

Chauvin was set up. But not by BLM, or any of the others. He was set up by his superiors and peers. People who ran from him as this story broke. People who abandoned him to the wolves.

But that is always the case when someone knowingly breaks the rules because they think the rules are stupid. Look at Racing. NASCAR has long been the example of this. Cheating to win, and coming up with ways not to get caught. Want a bigger fuel tank? Put a basketball in the tank, inflate it, and then fill it up. When the Stewards and officials drain the tank to check the volume they find it meets the rules. Then the crew chief deflates the ball, removes it, and has an extra gallon of gas, or more, inside. Adjustable deflectors, and the list is almost endless.

Cheating is done all the time. And we celebrate the winners who don’t get caught. And all those patting the winner on the back are suddenly absent when their luck runs out. They rush to the microphones and declare they can’t believe that good old Bob would do that. They’re shocked. Sometimes you can mistake their press conferences as Cartoons when they go all Foghorn Leghorn.

In this, and nearly every case, the guy did it. He got caught finally, and it couldn’t be swept under the rug. It was too big. Too many people knew. So the guy is thrown to the wolves, but not to placate the obvious enemies. To placate the middle class white folks.

The people the Police need to keep thinking they’re the good guys who would never imagine cheating like Derek did. The people who are sitting on the jury and refusing to even consider that the cops might be lying when they say they found drugs in the car. That is who Derek Chauvin was sacrificed to placate. To keep up the illusion that the disturbing view of Chauvin kneeling on a man as he died, doesn’t happen with the rest of the cops.

Chauvin was never a hero. He was a thug with a badge. He never should have been a cop. They should have fired him a long time ago, and handed him a card to truck driving school. But they kept him in the department and on the street. And eventually his luck ran out. Chauvin did what he had done many times before, and this time, it killed someone.

The end was not inevitable. It was however a result of not taking reform and enforcing the rules seriously on the cops who worked for the bosses. If you can’t offer the policy your full throated and whole hearted support, you can’t expect your officers to obey those rules. When they break the rules, which you think are Liberal bullshit, you turn a blind eye. You minimize it. You downplay it, doing just enough to cover your own ass. Why yes I reprimanded Chauvin for it. He knows not to do it again. Wink wink and a pat on the back.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

We all watched as a man was struggling to breathe while Chauvin just sat there for 9.5 minutes with his knee on his neck.

No doubt we all watched something. I’m just not convinced - with the drugs and heart condition - that this is what killed him. At least not by itself.

On doesn't need a M.E. to understand what he did needed punished.

Never suggested Chauvin didn’t deserve punishment.

 

[pknopp]

No doubt we all watched something. I’m just not convinced - with the drugs and heart condition - that this is what killed him. At least not by itself.


Never suggested Chauvin didn’t deserve punishment.

If I come across a man dying on the street and instead of helping him I kneel on his neck until he is dead I am going to be prosecuted.