Muslims are our friends but Islam is the enemy of Western Civilization?

[Foxfyre]

Again, my intent with this thread was not to bash Islam, Muslims, the Qu'ran or any other aspect of that particular religion/ideology and/or ethnic group.

My intent was to highlight any threat that Islam intends for western civilization as we know it.

I would be thrilled if we could set any food fights aside and focus on that.

I would be thrilled if Sunni Man or Kalam or any other of our Muslim friends could give me assurance that Islam does not intend to put western civilization under the authority of Islam.

And if they cannot provide such assurance, I would like discussion on how free people should address an intent that all of us will be under the authority of Allah?

 

[Ropey]

Again, my intent with this thread was not to bash Islam, Muslims, the Qu'ran or any other aspect of that particular religion/ideology and/or ethnic group.

My intent was to highlight any threat that Islam intends for western civilization as we know it.

I would be thrilled if we could set any food fights aside and focus on that.

I would be thrilled if Sunni Man or Kalam or any other of our Muslim friends could give me assurance that Islam does not intend to put western civilization under the authority of Islam.

And if they cannot provide such assurance, I would like discussion on how free people should address an intent that all of us will be under the authority of Allah?

Still looking for the moderate ones Foxfyre? The ones who allow you to think and act the way you do? They are here now. Major Nidal Hassan was one of those self proclaimed "Moderates."

America's Muslims are such a tiny population, but look at what is being attempted at Ground Zero. That should tell you something about moderate Islam. How they want to create an understanding at Ground Zero? Or...

Until the extreme ones come in and force the moderate view on all.

The views are the same. The methods are different. My view is that Islamic moderation is simply a blanket to warm the cold Islamic drive to bring the world to Islamic Peace.

I await the same thing you do Foxfyre. It is yet to be proffered by either Kalam and Sunni Man.

 

[Sunni Man]

The views are the same. The methods are different. My view is that Islamic moderation is simply a blanket to warm the cold Islamic drive to bring the world to Islamic Peace.

I await the same thing you do Foxfyre. It is yet to be proffered by either Kalam and Sunni Man.

So now we have Ropey; a self avowed Zionist Jew with radical views and an enemy of muslims and Islam.

Attempting to speak for muslims and their point of view.

 

[Foxfyre]

Again, my intent with this thread was not to bash Islam, Muslims, the Qu'ran or any other aspect of that particular religion/ideology and/or ethnic group.

My intent was to highlight any threat that Islam intends for western civilization as we know it.

I would be thrilled if we could set any food fights aside and focus on that.

I would be thrilled if Sunni Man or Kalam or any other of our Muslim friends could give me assurance that Islam does not intend to put western civilization under the authority of Islam.

And if they cannot provide such assurance, I would like discussion on how free people should address an intent that all of us will be under the authority of Allah?

Still looking for the moderate ones Foxfyre? The ones who allow you to think and act the way you do? They are here now. Major Nidal Hassan was one of those self proclaimed "Moderates."

America's Muslims are such a tiny population, but look at what is being attempted at Ground Zero. That should tell you something about moderate Islam. How they want to create an understanding at Ground Zero? Or...

Until the extreme ones come in and force the moderate view on all.

The views are the same. The methods are different. My view is that Islamic moderation is simply a blanket to warm the cold Islamic drive to bring the world to Islamic Peace.

I await the same thing you do Foxfyre. It is yet to be proffered by either Kalam and Sunni Man.

Well without competent or informed or authoritative assurance that it is not the intent of Islam to to put the whole world under the authority of Islam, and it is western civilization that now seems to be the primary focus for that, I tend to choose to err, if it is error, on the side of caution.

What does western civilization do, pass as law, choose as policy, adopt as a mindset, to stave off such Islamic intent without violating the rights of those intending it?

It is unalienable rights that I intend to protect. And again, neither Kalam nor SunniMan have given any argument or assurance that Islam acknowledges and/or respects our unalienable rights.

 

[Sunni Man]

Still looking for the moderate ones Foxfyre? The ones who allow you to think and act the way you do? They are here now. Major Nidal Hassan was one of those self proclaimed "Moderates."

btw Ropey, Please provide evidence or link to your statement:

" Major Nidal Hassan was one of those self proclaimed "Moderates."

When or where did he proclaim this??

Or else, just admit it's another one of your made up zionist lies.

 

[Ropey]

Still looking for the moderate ones Foxfyre? The ones who allow you to think and act the way you do? They are here now. Major Nidal Hassan was one of those self proclaimed "Moderates."

btw Ropey, Please provide evidence or link to your statement:

" Major Nidal Hassan was one of those self proclaimed "Moderates."

When or where did he proclaim this??

Or else, just admit it's another one of your made up zionist lies.

That's a problem with you Sunni Man. Contempt prior to investigation. Then, when you do not research you simply call lies anything you do not want to believe.

That's not the way it works Sunni Man.

Nidal’s character does not fit with this, he’s a very calm, quiet person. We are bewildered.”

Hasan's family said that he was moderate when he joined the American Military. His family say he was moderate as a young man.

Click

Moderate when he entered the Army and they say that this is before he began to log onto extremist Muslim websites.

This is where he became radicalized by extremist Muslims.

Lecture Series "Constants on The Path of jihad"

Muslim Brothers and Sisters, in the name of Allah, you are called to jihad.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Again, my intent with this thread was not to bash Islam, Muslims, the Qu'ran or any other aspect of that particular religion/ideology and/or ethnic group.

My intent was to highlight any threat that Islam intends for western civilization as we know it.

I would be thrilled if we could set any food fights aside and focus on that.

I would be thrilled if Sunni Man or Kalam or any other of our Muslim friends could give me assurance that Islam does not intend to put western civilization under the authority of Islam.

And if they cannot provide such assurance, I would like discussion on how free people should address an intent that all of us will be under the authority of Allah?

Im sure Mt Sunni and Mr Kalam would like to add some obfuscation to this information




Islam Question and Answer - Judging by that which Allaah has revealed

Islam Question and Answer - Should he turn to the human rights organizations to get his rights?
Islam Question and Answer - The kufr of one who rules according to other than what Allaah revealed

Allaah has commanded us to refer matters to His judgement and to establish Sharee‘ah, and He has forbidden us to rule with anything else, as is clear from a number of aayaat in the Qur’aan, such as the aayaat in Soorat al-Maa’idah (5) which discuss ruling according to what Allaah has revealed, and mention the following topics:

The command to rule according to what Allaah has revealed: “And so judge between them by what Allaah has revealed . . .” [aayah 49]

Warning against ruling by other than what Allaah has revealed: “. . . and follow not their vain desires . . .” [aayah 49]

Warning against compromising on any detail of Sharee‘ah, no matter how small: “. . . but beware of them lest they turn you far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you . . .” [aayah 49]

Forbidding seeking the ruling of jaahiliyyah, as is expressed in the rhetorical question “Do they then seek the judgement of (the Days of) Ignorance?” [aayah 50]

The statement that nobody is better than Allaah to judge: “. . . and who is better in judgement than Allaah for a people who have firm Faith?” [aayah 50]

The statement that whoever does not judge according to what Allaah revealed is a kaafir, a zaalim (oppressor or wrongdoer) and a faasiq (sinner), as Allaah says: “. . . And whoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed, such are the kaafiroon.” [aayah 44]; “. . . And whoever does not judge by that which Allaah has revealed, such are the zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers)” [aayah 45]; “. . . And whoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed (then) such (people) are the faasiqoon (rebellious or disobedient).” [aayah 47].

The statement that it is obligatory for the Muslims to judge according to what Allaah has revealed, even if those who seek their judgement are not Muslim, as Allaah says: “. . . And if you judge, judge with justice between them. . .” [aayah 42]

 

[Sunni Man]

Still looking for the moderate ones Foxfyre? The ones who allow you to think and act the way you do? They are here now. Major Nidal Hassan was one of those self proclaimed "Moderates."

btw Ropey, Please provide evidence or link to your statement:

" Major Nidal Hassan was one of those self proclaimed "Moderates."

When or where did he proclaim this??

Or else, just admit it's another one of your made up zionist lies.

That's a problem with you Sunni Man. Contempt prior to investigation. Then, when you do not research you simply call lies anything you do not want to believe.

That's not the way it works Sunni Man.

Nidal’s character does not fit with this, he’s a very calm, quiet person. We are bewildered.”

Hasan's family said that he was moderate when he joined the American Military. His family say he was moderate as a young man.

Click

Moderate when he entered the Army and they say that this is before he began to log onto extremist Muslim websites.

This is where he became radicalized by extremist Muslims.

So in other words Ropey.

You have ZERO evidence that Major Nidal Hassan himself ever proclaimed he was a "Moderate."

Just as I thought; another Ropey the Zionist Jew made up lie.

 

[Foxfyre]

Ah well I tried. When ya'll get tired of the food fight and attacking/accusing each other, I'll hope somebody will deal with the topic.

Ya'll have a good day though.

 

[Kalam]

Kalam

So childish.

Praise be to Allaah.
Islam is the religion of mercy and justice; it commands us to call others to the religion of Allaah in a kind and good manner, and to encourage people to enter this great religion. If some people persist in rejecting the religion of Allaah and stand in the way of ruling by that which Allaah has revealed on earth, or they fight against the call to Allaah, then we give them the choice of three things:

Either they become Muslim; or if they refuse they pay the jizyah (whereby they pay a specified amount to the Muslims in return for being allowed to remain their land, and the Muslims undertake to protect them);

or, if they refuse that, there is nothing left but the way which they themselves have chosen, which is fighting and dealing violently with those who have persecuted the Muslims and put obstacles in the path of the Islamic da’wah.

In this way the Muslims will gain the upper hand and the enemies will be humiliated; then when we have killed and wounded many of them and gained the upper hand over them,

Islam Question and Answer - Treatment of prisoners-of-war in Islam

Misleading. Simply not paying a tax does not constitute an offense with a fard punishment, much less a capital offense. They would be killed if they continued fighting.

Im sure you have some authoritative source to back up your opinion you would like to link to.

The Hanafi school does not regard the refusal or failure to pay jizyah per se as a breach of the dhimma contract. I believe Abu Yusuf wrote that this sort of tax evasion should be punished with imprisonment until the evader agrees to pay the tax; this can probably be found in the Kitab al-Kharaj.

 

[Kalam]

Obfuscation, minimization and a complete disregard for the extreme acts of those Muslims who are killing all over the world.

Is this is the true face of Moderate Islam?

Did you want to add something to the discussion, or are you content with trolling?

 

[Ropey]

Obfuscation, minimization and a complete disregard for the extreme acts of those Muslims who are killing all over the world.

Is this is the true face of Moderate Islam?

Did you want to add something to the discussion, or are you content with trolling?

One of four schools of law. While Muslims are fighting and exploding themselves all over the world. Remember our talk on the Chechen conflict? I still have my answer that you did not respond to and left unanswered.

I know why. You run from the extremist acts with a moderate face. That's not really Islam you say. This is not really happening you say.

And anyone who challenges you on those grounds receives your double talk. You break down a simple question into degrees of interpretation in the four schools and you jump between them all the whilst bobbing and weaving and never answering the true simple questions.

And I troll when I hold you to answer simply...

OK, that I can accept.

 

[Kalam]

One of four schools of law. While Muslims are fighting and exploding themselves all over the world.

Your point? The Hanafi school is the oldest and most widely followed. As far as I can tell, it is also the school whose rulings seem to be favored by Hizb ut-Tahrir, at least as far as the dhimma is concerned.

Remember our talk on the Chechen conflict? I still have my answer that you did not respond to and left unanswered.

When was this? Feel free to link me to it and I'll respond.

I know why

Because I was away for a few weeks?

And anyone who challenges you on those grounds receives your double talk. You break down a simple question into degrees of interpretation in the four schools and you jump between them all the whilst bobbing and weaking and never answering the true simple questions.

Feel free to challenge the validity of any dictate of Islam that I've posted with evidence from the Qur'an, the Sunnah, or the Successors. Alternatively, I suppose you could continue to whine loquaciously about my posts without actually showing them to be incorrect.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

So childish.


Misleading. Simply not paying a tax does not constitute an offense with a fard punishment, much less a capital offense. They would be killed if they continued fighting.

Im sure you have some authoritative source to back up your opinion you would like to link to.

The Hanafi school does not regard the refusal or failure to pay jizyah per se as a breach of the dhimma contract. I believe Abu Yusuf wrote that this sort of tax evasion should be punished with imprisonment until the evader agrees to pay the tax; this can probably be found in the Kitab al-Kharaj.

You should learn how to make and use links.

 

[Kalam]

Im sure you have some authoritative source to back up your opinion you would like to link to.

The Hanafi school does not regard the refusal or failure to pay jizyah per se as a breach of the dhimma contract. I believe Abu Yusuf wrote that this sort of tax evasion should be punished with imprisonment until the evader agrees to pay the tax; this can probably be found in the Kitab al-Kharaj.

You should learn how to make and use links.

You should understand that not everything can be found on the internet. Or can it?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The Hanafi school does not regard the refusal or failure to pay jizyah per se as a breach of the dhimma contract. I believe Abu Yusuf wrote that this sort of tax evasion should be punished with imprisonment until the evader agrees to pay the tax; this can probably be found in the Kitab al-Kharaj.

You should learn how to make and use links.

You should understand that not everything can be found on the internet. Or can it?

I see no reason to assume that the interpretation is valid in light of the author's failure to substantiate his claims. Do you?

 

[Kalam]

You should learn how to make and use links.

You should understand that not everything can be found on the internet. Or can it?

I see no reason to assume that the interpretation is valid in light of the author's failure to substantiate his claims. Do you?

In the absence of a hadd penalty ("fard" earlier should also read "hadd"; typo), punishments are largely left to a judge's discretion. As a student of Abu Hanifa himself and an early qadi al-qudat, Abu Yusuf's rulings set precedents that are worthy of consideration. Do you disagree?

 

[Ropey]

One of four schools of law. While Muslims are fighting and exploding themselves all over the world.

Your point? The Hanafi school is the oldest and most widely followed. As far as I can tell, it is also the school whose rulings seem to be favored by Hizb ut-Tahrir, at least as far as the dhimma is concerned.

You easily bypassed the Muslim extremism worldwide and what the MB and others are following to move to a school of law that is one of four and is the most intellectual interpretations.

What is being taught by extremists is different. What is being taught to the illiterates and young is not this.

Where are the militaristic schools of thought?

Where can they be found? Same place as your links?

 

[Kalam]

You easily bypassed the Muslim extremism worldwide and what the MB and others are following to move to a school of law that is one of four.

The existence of the MB should be something you consider a necessary evil. They and their proxies are what prevent al-Qa'idah and similar groups from acquiring footholds in Palestine.

Where can they be found? Same place as your links?

Which are, not on the Internet?

OK

The current stream of garbage seems to be an incredibly bastardized version of the theories and teachings of Qutb and 'Abdullah Azzam, among others. This is how they began, more or less:

Milestones - Sayyid Qutb

Noble ideas that have been corrupted into grabasstic nonsense:

Ansar Al-Mujahideen… In support of the struggle by pen and sword

(visiting that forum may earn you a place on a government list -- be warned.)

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

It might be if it were substantive to what I posted at which time you decided to start in on the jizyah.
You have a lot of killing to do before the jizyah is paid by the subdues captives

http://www.usmessageboard.com/3185591-post286.html

O9.8: The Objectives of Jihad
The caliph (o25) makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians (N: provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya, def: o11.4) -which is the significance of their paying it, not the money itself-while remaining in their ancestral religions) (O: and the war continues) until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax (O: in accordance with the word of Allah Most High,

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden-who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book-until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled" (Koran 9.29),

the time and place for which is before the final descent of Jesus (upon whom be peace). After his final coming, nothing but Islam will be accepted from them, for taking the poll tax is only effective until Jesus' descent (upon him and our Prophet be peace), which is the divinely revealed law of Muhammad. The coming of Jesus does not entail a separate divinely revealed law, for he will rule by the law of Muhammad. As for the Prophet's saying (Allah bless him and give him peace),
"I am the last, there will be no prophet after me,"
this does not contradict the final coming of Jesus (upon whom be peace), since he will not rule according to the Evangel, but as a follower of our Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) ).
@O9.9
The caliph fights all other peoples until they become Muslim (O: because they are not a people with a Book, nor honored as such, and are not permitted to settle with paying the poll tax (jizya) ) (n: though according to the Hanafi school, peoples of all other religions, even idol worshippers, are permitted to live under the protection of the Islamic state if they either become Muslim or agree to pay the poll tax, the sole exceptions to which are apostates from Islam and idol worshippers who are Arabs, neither of whom has any choice but becoming Muslim (al-Hidaya sharh Bidaya al-mubtadi' (y21), 6.48-49) ).