MW advocates - what are the downsides of minimum wage?

[Lesh]

If raising the minimum wage actually caused unemployment and inflation, if be against it too. But it doesn't.

Really? Ok, then can you answer the question posed in the OP? Are there any downsides to raising the minimum wage, in your view? What are they? Why wouldn't you raise it to $200/hr?

In response...there are downsides to raising it to $200/hr. That's just stupid.

Is that the same as raising it to $12or $15? Only an idiot would claim that

 

[dblack]

If raising the minimum wage actually caused unemployment and inflation, if be against it too. But it doesn't.

Really? Ok, then can you answer the question posed in the OP? Are there any downsides to raising the minimum wage, in your view? What are they? Why wouldn't you raise it to $200/hr?

In response...there are downsides to raising it to $200/hr. That's just stupid.

Is that the same as raising it to $12or $15? Only an idiot would claim that

And only an idiot would read that into my post.

 

[Lesh]

You stupid moron



You can raise minimum wage up to 10 million dollars a year..and they would still qualify for walfare..

How would that exactly work?

 

[rightwinger]

The market will adjust after a minimum wage increase

Always has

 

[task0778]

If raising the minimum wage actually caused unemployment and inflation, if be against it too. But it doesn't.

How do you figure that? Say you raise the M-Wage, do you believe that employers will just eat the higher labor costs? Some might, depending on the location and circumstances. But some won't, or can't, because the business becomes too unprofitable. You get that, right?

..... So, maybe some of you advocates for the higher M-Wage can explain how and why the above scenarios are wrong. I mean, we're talking basic economics here, it isn't rocket science.

I think most of them do get it, but the rules of partisan debate forbid them admitting any tradeoffs, any downside, any weakness to their favored policies. And if they're following those "debate" rules, you'll never get an honest answer out of them. They'll dodge, juke, jive and lie their asses off - anything but face reality.

Moronic argument. Your stated downside is unsubstantiated. You are asking others to make your argument for you.

Paying people enough to live on is a straight up win win for everyone. Long term win for businesses and taxpayers. Income inequality is a loser for everyone.

It is what it is.

You (Lone Laugher) have made statements which I questioned; I even provided reasons why I questioned YOUR statements. I asked questions which you did not answer. It is YOU who is making unsubstantiated claims, and when pressed, you dodge, duck, juke, and jive as dblack suggests. But since you asked for evidence, I will provide that:

In 2014, the City Council there passed an ordinance that raised the minimum wage in stages from $9.47 to $15.45 for large employers this year and $16 in 2019. Last year, research commissioned by the Seattle City Council itself was released. It examined the effects of the increases from $9.47 to as much as $11 in 2015 and to as much as $13 in 2016. This study, conducted by economists from the University of Washington found:

…the second wage increase to $13 reduced hours worked in low-wage jobs by around 9 percent, while hourly wages in such jobs increased by around 3 percent. Consequently, total payroll fell for such jobs, implying that the minimum wage ordinance lowered low-wage employees’ earnings by an average of $125 per month in 2016. [This was later revised to $74]

AND

And then there are the workers who, as a result of this ordinance, don’t get to enter the labor force in the first place. The study finds a notable decline of about 5 percent in the number of people entering Seattle’s low-wage workforce in each quarter. As the study’s Figure 5 shows, Seattle used to track the rest of Washington State quite closely on this measure but has slipped below it since the minimum wage hikes began. If Seattle had continued to match the rest of the state, there would have been an additional 500 workers joining the low-wage labor force each quarter. [IOW, fewer people had jobs, otherwise known as more unemployment]

AND

... This is in line with what the balance of empirical research suggests. In 2008, economists David Neumark and William L. Wascher surveyed two decades of research into the effects of minimum wage laws. They found:

Minimum wages reduce employment opportunities for less-skilled workers … (that) a higher minimum wage tends to reduce rather than to increase the earnings of the lowest-skilled individuals … (that) minimum wages do not, on net, reduce poverty … (and that) minimum wages appear to have adverse longer-run effects on wages and earnings.

What CNN Gets Wrong in Its Coverage of Seattle's New Minimum Wage Law | John Phelan

AND

First, let’s have a look at the impact of minimum wage on prices. Obviously, increasing the minimum wage increases costs for businesses, and they have three possible responses to this: either take the hit on their profits, reduce employment, or pass on the cost to consumers in the form of higher prices. As such, the minimum wage acts like a tax on businesses, and they act accordingly.

However, as Lemos found in her meta-analysis, firms will not always act in an identical manner, and when prices do rise, they tend to do so to varying degrees. For example, she concluded that a 10 percent increase in the minimum wage would increase food prices by up to 4 percent and overall prices by no more than 0.4 percent.

Later studies have found similar results, especially that food prices seem to be more sensitive to increases in the minimum wage. The reason for this is likely to be the fact that the hospitality industry has lots of workers on the minimum wage relative to other sectors of the economy, and these companies respond by passing the price onto consumers.

AND

Meer & West found that increases to the minimum wage in the US resulted in firms being far less likely to hire new staff. Moreover, Neumark & Wascher found that increases to the minimum wage result in fewer employment opportunities, especially for low-skilled workers.

This is supported by a plethora of other academic studies. For example, Meer & West found that increases to the minimum wage in the US resulted in firms being far less likely to hire new staff. Moreover, Neumark & Wascher found that increases to the minimum wage result in fewer employment opportunities, especially for low-skilled workers.

What the Minimum Wage Does to Food Prices (and Job Hiring) | Ben Ramanauskas

AND

Catherine Rampell leans to the left, but she warned last year in the Washington Post about the danger of “helping” workers to the unemployment line:

…the left needs to think harder about the unintended consequences of… benevolent-seeming proposals. In isolation, each of these policies has the potential to make workers more costly to hire. Cumulatively, they almost certainly do. Which means that, unless carefully designed, a lefty “pro-labor” platform might actually encourage firms to hire less labor… It’s easier, or perhaps more politically convenient, to assume that “pro-worker” policies never hurt the workers they’re intended to help. Take the proposal to raise the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour… raising wages in Seattle to $13 has produced sharp cuts in hours, leaving low-wage workers with smaller paychecks. And that’s in a high-cost city. Imagine what would happen if Congress raised the minimum wage to $15 nationwide… Why wouldn’t you want to improve the living standards of as many people as possible? The answer: You won’t actually be helping them if making their labor much more expensive, much too quickly, results in their getting fired.

AND

This minimum wage spike has forced several New York City businesses to shutter their doors and will claim many more victims soon. Businesses must meet the $15 wage by the end of 2018, the culmination of mandatory increment increases that began in 2016 … For many businesses, this egregious law is not just an inconvenience, it is simply unaffordable. The most recent victim is long-time staple, The Coffee Shop… In explaining his decision to close following 28 years of high-volume business, owner Charles Milite told the New York Post, “The times have changed in our industry. The rents are very high and now the minimum wage is going up and we have a huge number of employees.”…Of all affected businesses, restaurants are at the greatest risk of losing their ability to operate under the strain of crushing financial demands. They run at the highest day-to-day operational costs of any business, partly because they must employ more people to run efficiently… Eventually, minimum wage laws and other prohibitive regulations will cause the world-renowned restaurant life in cities like New York, DC, and San Francisco to cease to exist.

For what it’s worth, I don’t think restaurants will “cease to exist” because of mandates for higher minimum wages.

But there will definitely be fewer establishments with fewer workers.

Real-World Examples of How the Minimum Wage Harms Workers | Daniel J. Mitchell

 

[rightwinger]

The impact of not raising minimum wage for ten years is more debt among low wage workers and more public assistance

Employers don't pay......taxpayers will

 

[francoHFW]

living wage works great in every develop country it has been tried. Republicans have their own stupid planet of garbage propaganda and fear mongering....

 

[Lesh]

Raising the minimum wage in Seattle was NOT thedisaster the idiots predicted

They Said Seattle’s Higher Base Pay Would Hurt Workers. Why Did They Flip?

 

[task0778]

If raising the minimum wage actually caused unemployment and inflation, if be against it too. But it doesn't.

How do you figure that? Say you raise the M-Wage, do you believe that employers will just eat the higher labor costs? Some might, depending on the location and circumstances. But some won't, or can't, because the business becomes too unprofitable. You get that, right?

..... So, maybe some of you advocates for the higher M-Wage can explain how and why the above scenarios are wrong. I mean, we're talking basic economics here, it isn't rocket science.

I think most of them do get it, but the rules of partisan debate forbid them admitting any tradeoffs, any downside, any weakness to their favored policies. And if they're following those "debate" rules, you'll never get an honest answer out of them. They'll dodge, juke, jive and lie their asses off - anything but face reality.

Moronic argument. Your stated downside is unsubstantiated. You are asking others to make your argument for you.

Paying people enough to live on is a straight up win win for everyone. Long term win for businesses and taxpayers. Income inequality is a loser for everyone.

It is what it is.

See what I mean?

Yeah, it's like an echo chamber, nothing you can say gets through. It kinda makes any sort of civil discussions very difficult.

 

[dblack]

If raising the minimum wage actually caused unemployment and inflation, if be against it too. But it doesn't.

How do you figure that? Say you raise the M-Wage, do you believe that employers will just eat the higher labor costs? Some might, depending on the location and circumstances. But some won't, or can't, because the business becomes too unprofitable. You get that, right?

..... So, maybe some of you advocates for the higher M-Wage can explain how and why the above scenarios are wrong. I mean, we're talking basic economics here, it isn't rocket science.

I think most of them do get it, but the rules of partisan debate forbid them admitting any tradeoffs, any downside, any weakness to their favored policies. And if they're following those "debate" rules, you'll never get an honest answer out of them. They'll dodge, juke, jive and lie their asses off - anything but face reality.

Moronic argument. Your stated downside is unsubstantiated. You are asking others to make your argument for you.

Paying people enough to live on is a straight up win win for everyone. Long term win for businesses and taxpayers. Income inequality is a loser for everyone.

It is what it is.

See what I mean?

Yeah, it's like an echo chamber, nothing you can say gets through. It kinda makes any sort of civil discussions very difficult.

That's their intent. There are people here interested in real discussion. But most are just partisan cheerleaders.

 

[task0778]

How do you figure that? Say you raise the M-Wage, do you believe that employers will just eat the higher labor costs? Some might, depending on the location and circumstances. But some won't, or can't, because the business becomes too unprofitable. You get that, right?

..... So, maybe some of you advocates for the higher M-Wage can explain how and why the above scenarios are wrong. I mean, we're talking basic economics here, it isn't rocket science.

I think most of them do get it, but the rules of partisan debate forbid them admitting any tradeoffs, any downside, any weakness to their favored policies. And if they're following those "debate" rules, you'll never get an honest answer out of them. They'll dodge, juke, jive and lie their asses off - anything but face reality.

Moronic argument. Your stated downside is unsubstantiated. You are asking others to make your argument for you.

Paying people enough to live on is a straight up win win for everyone. Long term win for businesses and taxpayers. Income inequality is a loser for everyone.

It is what it is.

See what I mean?

Yeah, it's like an echo chamber, nothing you can say gets through. It kinda makes any sort of civil discussions very difficult.

That's their intent. There are people here interested in real discussion. But most are just partisan cheerleaders.

LOL, partisan cheerleaders. I thought that was artfully stated.

 

[dblack]

The market will adjust after a minimum wage increase

Always has

That's how I've always seen it. But the adjust period can be painful, and you end up right back where you started. So, what's the point?

 

[LoneLaugher]

I think most of them do get it, but the rules of partisan debate forbid them admitting any tradeoffs, any downside, any weakness to their favored policies. And if they're following those "debate" rules, you'll never get an honest answer out of them. They'll dodge, juke, jive and lie their asses off - anything but face reality.

Moronic argument. Your stated downside is unsubstantiated. You are asking others to make your argument for you.

Paying people enough to live on is a straight up win win for everyone. Long term win for businesses and taxpayers. Income inequality is a loser for everyone.

It is what it is.

See what I mean?

Yeah, it's like an echo chamber, nothing you can say gets through. It kinda makes any sort of civil discussions very difficult.

That's their intent. There are people here interested in real discussion. But most are just partisan cheerleaders.

LOL, partisan cheerleaders. I thought that was artfully stated.

You two lovebirds should get a room.

Get one with WiFi so you can research for evidences that raising the minimum wage causes increased unemployment and inflation. Because you haven't supported that claim.

 

[LoneLaugher]

The market will adjust after a minimum wage increase

Always has

That's how I've always seen it. But the adjust period can be painful, and you end up right back where you started. So, what's the point?

You do?

Prove that, please.

 

[rightwinger]

The market will adjust after a minimum wage increase

Always has

That's how I've always seen it. But the adjust period can be painful, and you end up right back where you started. So, what's the point?

We haven’t touched minimum wage in ten years

We need a major adjustment

 

[dblack]

The market will adjust after a minimum wage increase

Always has

That's how I've always seen it. But the adjust period can be painful, and you end up right back where you started. So, what's the point?

You do?

Prove that, please.

Rightwinger brought it up. Ask him to prove it. My opinion isn't the point of the thread. I'm trying to understand the reasoning of advocates who claim the are no downsides to raising the minimum wage. I'm taking their claim at face value. If they are truly no problems created when setting or raising minimum wage, why stop at 15/hr? Why not go higher?

 

[dblack]

The market will adjust after a minimum wage increase

Always has

That's how I've always seen it. But the adjust period can be painful, and you end up right back where you started. So, what's the point?

You do?

Prove that, please.

Rightwinger brought it up. Ask him to prove it. My opinion isn't the point of the thread. I'm trying to understand the reasoning of advocates who claim the are no downsides to raising the minimum wage. I'm taking their claim at face value. If they are truly no problems created when setting or raising minimum wage, why stop at 15/hr? Why not go higher?

And, before you go there, claiming a "living wage" as the goal of minimum wage doesn't resolve anything. The income a person needs to live can vary wildly. An extremely resourceful person might be able to live on $15/day. Whereas a person with a large family or chronic illness might need much more than $15/hr. So we have to make a judgement call on what to call a 'living wage'. If there are no downsides to raising it higher and higher, we might as well set it at a level that covers everyone. Most supporters of minimum wage would say that's not sensible, but they won't say why. Is it a secret?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Common sense says it won't work and history proves that costs or unemployment will have to increase.

Common sense is obviously something completely foreign to you.

History has shown conclusively that we don't actually know what raising the MW does to unemployment nor inflation, because we've never fucking done it. The MW has steadily lost value since 1938. To the point now that it i worth 88% of what it was as short as 40 years ago.

So just stop with your nonfactual "history has shown us" nonsense.

We have never raised the minimum wage? Are you intentionally stupid or just plain ignorant?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Common sense says it won't work and history proves that costs or unemployment will have to increase.

Common sense is obviously something completely foreign to you.

History has shown conclusively that we don't actually know what raising the MW does to unemployment nor inflation, because we've never fucking done it. The MW has steadily lost value since 1938. To the point now that it i worth 88% of what it was as short as 40 years ago.

So just stop with your nonfactual "history has shown us" nonsense.

What are you smoking? We have done it forever and it still leads to the same result . They are still making minimum wage

.
.

We've done what forever? Raised the minimum wage? What utter nonsense. If inflation over a 4 year period is 8% and your employee gives you a 2% raise over the same time frame, have you really received a 2% raise? The answer is most assuredly no .

Yes, and you are obviously a complete moron.

 

[Lesh]

Yes, and you are obviously a complete moron.

So anyone who understands basic math is a complete moron?