My Objection to Religion

[trobinett]

Maybe if you might see it from this perspective. Christians are encouraged in scripture to let the "good news" or gospel be told to all. Not forced down anyone's mouth(which is impossible), but to at least tell all possible that they have a Saviour, and who provides total atonement for their sinful lives.

Now, you say, that it isn't any business except your's whom you believe or don't believe in. In one way your right. You can't be forceably made to believe or accept anything you don't want to. That is your "free will" as a human being. The "but" part, is that the Christian has received a command(The great commission) from Jesus Himself to tell the "good news" to the far reaches of the world........that includes forums, or anywhere that the Holy Spirit prompts that Christian to do so.

Granted, Christians can be overly pushy, and not stop with the old "your going to hell" mantra, and in essence can actually hurt or hinder the good news being spread. Christ didn't even preach that way.....He established bonafide friendships, and gradually He was trusted through His demonstrated life to the point that He could explain His mission to save mankind.

Christians have a bonafide concern for other's lives. That's a burden that they receive upon the time of their own conversion. It's not a result of brain-washing, but a bonafide burden for the eternal destiny of their fellow human beings.

I realize that it's a hard thing to understand why Christians wouldn't just be complacent with being happy that they have found Jesus, and salvation, and eternal life and then just leave others alone and go about their daily lives as good citizens of their nation and planet. What arises here is that when one is trully converted or Born Again or Born From Above as Jesus said to Nicodemus the Pharisee, there is an actual Spiritual change in the nature of that "said" person who was once lost and now can metaphorically "see". The "seeing" is a change from within, not brought on by brainwashing, but by a radical change of "nature" as a result of the bible explaining in the N.T. that a Christian is a new creature or new creation. This new nature entails the visitation and residency of the Spirit of Christ or the Holy Ghost, or Holy Spirit, as an enabler, and counselor with the soul of the new convert.

Now that I've attempted to show you the radical change that happens upon true Christian conversion to an individual, as Jesus explained, and also the many N.T. epistles have also explained, we have a new paradox.

This new person, "In Christ", Spiritually, receives Christ's life in-residency in the newly converted's soul, and with that we have a radical departure from old agendas, needs, priorities in this new person.

Now Christ's life in cooperation with the human spirit(will or our chooser) starts to have a passion and a longing to see all of mankind in God's fold, much as a shepherd seeks to find all of his lambs before night-fall, and fall to predatory dangers.

Christians don't manufacture a longing to tell others of the bible. Heck, if us Christians had our old self-centered way before conversion we would shrink back from telling anyone about Jesus and salvation. Why would we want to be called freaks, drunks, religions fanatics, zealots....etc. for a self-manufactured passion? That would be absolutely foolish and nearly self-destructive to us in many situations with other folks, i.e. strained friendships and relations.

No, this passion to tell others that there is a hope, and a total forgiveness, and eternal life for all who believe on Jesus's atoning work on the cross and His ressurrection is not a result of pride, arrogance, or any self-centered compulsion. It is an actual heart-felt desire to bring folks into a personal relationship with their Creator via Christ's bridge work between man and God's gulf of separation that started in the Garden.

Christians literally cry in prayer over folks they sometimes fleetingly meet on the street, or know from work, or relatives, parents, grand parents, spouses, siblings; their very own children......etc.. Not for personal gain or atta-boys from God, but because they are being "moved" in their inner man/woman by Christ's Spirit within their souls, to call mankind back to a "right" standing before their Creator; an eternal life in a safe secure, peaceful life, that bridges earthly life and continues through the veil of death. It's akin to having crawled into the life boat and wanting all around who are flailing in the icey waters to swim their way and get in with them. Nothing selfish in those motives........just compassion.

Your the man Eight, honest, compassionate, caring, and understanding, glade to know you.

 

[Eightball]

Your the man Eight, honest, compassionate, caring, and understanding, glade to know you.

Thanks Trob: Love your concise, to the point, replies in all of the topics. Your are always "dead on" with your analysis, and comments.

 

[glockmail]

Looks like you two should get a room.

 

[Puddles]

Maybe if you might see it from this perspective. Christians are encouraged in scripture to let the "good news" or gospel be told to all. Not forced down anyone's mouth(which is impossible), but to at least tell all possible that they have a Saviour, and who provides total atonement for their sinful lives.

Now, you say, that it isn't any business except your's whom you believe or don't believe in. In one way your right. You can't be forceably made to believe or accept anything you don't want to. That is your "free will" as a human being. The "but" part, is that the Christian has received a command(The great commission) from Jesus Himself to tell the "good news" to the far reaches of the world........that includes forums, or anywhere that the Holy Spirit prompts that Christian to do so.

Granted, Christians can be overly pushy, and not stop with the old "your going to hell" mantra, and in essence can actually hurt or hinder the good news being spread. Christ didn't even preach that way.....He established bonafide friendships, and gradually He was trusted through His demonstrated life to the point that He could explain His mission to save mankind.

Christians have a bonafide concern for other's lives. That's a burden that they receive upon the time of their own conversion. It's not a result of brain-washing, but a bonafide burden for the eternal destiny of their fellow human beings.

I realize that it's a hard thing to understand why Christians wouldn't just be complacent with being happy that they have found Jesus, and salvation, and eternal life and then just leave others alone and go about their daily lives as good citizens of their nation and planet. What arises here is that when one is trully converted or Born Again or Born From Above as Jesus said to Nicodemus the Pharisee, there is an actual Spiritual change in the nature of that "said" person who was once lost and now can metaphorically "see". The "seeing" is a change from within, not brought on by brainwashing, but by a radical change of "nature" as a result of the bible explaining in the N.T. that a Christian is a new creature or new creation. This new nature entails the visitation and residency of the Spirit of Christ or the Holy Ghost, or Holy Spirit, as an enabler, and counselor with the soul of the new convert.

Now that I've attempted to show you the radical change that happens upon true Christian conversion to an individual, as Jesus explained, and also the many N.T. epistles have also explained, we have a new paradox.

This new person, "In Christ", Spiritually, receives Christ's life in-residency in the newly converted's soul, and with that we have a radical departure from old agendas, needs, priorities in this new person.

Now Christ's life in cooperation with the human spirit(will or our chooser) starts to have a passion and a longing to see all of mankind in God's fold, much as a shepherd seeks to find all of his lambs before night-fall, and fall to predatory dangers.

Christians don't manufacture a longing to tell others of the bible. Heck, if us Christians had our old self-centered way before conversion we would shrink back from telling anyone about Jesus and salvation. Why would we want to be called freaks, drunks, religions fanatics, zealots....etc. for a self-manufactured passion? That would be absolutely foolish and nearly self-destructive to us in many situations with other folks, i.e. strained friendships and relations.

No, this passion to tell others that there is a hope, and a total forgiveness, and eternal life for all who believe on Jesus's atoning work on the cross and His ressurrection is not a result of pride, arrogance, or any self-centered compulsion. It is an actual heart-felt desire to bring folks into a personal relationship with their Creator via Christ's bridge work between man and God's gulf of separation that started in the Garden.

Christians literally cry in prayer over folks they sometimes fleetingly meet on the street, or know from work, or relatives, parents, grand parents, spouses, siblings; their very own children......etc.. Not for personal gain or atta-boys from God, but because they are being "moved" in their inner man/woman by Christ's Spirit within their souls, to call mankind back to a "right" standing before their Creator; an eternal life in a safe secure, peaceful life, that bridges earthly life and continues through the veil of death. It's akin to having crawled into the life boat and wanting all around who are flailing in the icey waters to swim their way and get in with them. Nothing selfish in those motives........just compassion.

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me. And while I understand where you are coming from, I don't find it in any way justifiable.

To make my position more understandable, imagine you replaced the word Christianity with Islam and Christian with Muslim.

Because Christianity isn't the only one, Islam is another religion and history and current events proofs to us, that all it has done is cause problems, tensions and wars.

It is also very self-righteous and presumptuous for these sort Christians (since not all do this) to think they need to spread the word. It would be one thing if they followed the bible (or Koran) to the letter, but I think anyone does (or can possibly do)...so they pick and choose what suits them.

 

[dilloduck]

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me. And while I understand where you are coming from, I don't find it in any way justifiable.

To make my position more understandable, imagine you replaced the word Christianity with Islam and Christian with Muslim.

Because Christianity isn't the only one, Islam is another religion and history and current events proofs to us, that all it has done is cause problems, tensions and wars.

It is also very self-righteous and presumptuous for these sort Christians (since not all do this) to think they need to spread the word. It would be one thing if they followed the bible (or Koran) to the letter, but I think anyone does (or can possibly do)...so they pick and choose what suits them.

Ultimately the true Christian will turn the other cheek as the true Muslim severs his head.

 

[Puddles]

Ultimately the true Christian will turn the other cheek as the true Muslim severs his head.

Oh yes, a Christian has never murdered in the name of god or religion

 

[glockmail]

....
To make my position more understandable, imagine you replaced the word Christianity with Islam and Christian with Muslim.

.....

You should try to develop a better understanding on the three monotheist religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, in their historical context, because you just can't switch them around and make sense.

Islam was invented by some guy in a cave who hated Jews and Christians. The Arabs and Persians are descendents of the tribes that Moses was instructed to exterminate. Mohamed claims the Jesus was "the greatest prophet", then teaches the exact opposite what Jesus preached. Its an abomination and a fake religion.

 

[ErikViking]

You should try to develop a better understanding on the three monotheist religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, in their historical context, because you just can't switch them around and make sense.

I haven't looked in to Judaism, but religous fanatics of at least Christianity and Islam use (or have used) the same sort of rethoric. But you rarely see fanatical Christian messages around today, but when comparing a few hundered years old christian texts with current muslim ones I find you can leave references to jews unchanged and swap muslims and christians and still have the same text.

The keyword is fanatics in my opinion.

Messages of hate, fear and dehumanization always looks the same, no matter the sender.

 

[glockmail]

I haven't looked in to Judaism, but religous fanatics of at least Christianity and Islam use (or have used) the same sort of rethoric. But you rarely see fanatical Christian messages around today, but when comparing a few hundered years old christian texts with current muslim ones I find you can leave references to jews unchanged and swap muslims and christians and still have the same text.

The keyword is fanatics in my opinion.

Messages of hate, fear and dehumanization always looks the same, no matter the sender.

That's fine but to ignore the fact that the root of Islam is hatred of Jews is the height of ignorance.

 

[ErikViking]

That's fine but to ignore the fact that the root of Islam is hatred of Jews is the height of ignorance.

In order to sustain a perfect image of an emeny it is crucial to point out the differences between us and them. The above is a perfect example of that. Searching several hundereds of years in in history without being objective in order to find things you like to find. It is... nothing. Worthless. The world is a whole lot more complex than this, - count on it. Also count on your enemy counterpart is doing the exact same/opposite.

Sure the history is important and interesting. But not when used as a tool in this game of hate and fear.

If you really examine history to find correlations to todays events you will find this: The "who" is much less interesting than the "how". Focus on that and things like holocaust, nuclear strikes and terror-deeds gets both understandable and possible to forsee, avoid or stop.

 

[glockmail]

.....Searching several hundereds of years in in history without being objective ....

You mean like, the Koran?

So when the Koran says kill the infadels, I'm just taking it out of context?

190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

 

[ErikViking]

That's fine but to ignore the fact that the root of Islam is hatred of Jews is the height of ignorance

So when the Koran says kill the infadels, I'm just taking it out of context?

It is out of context regarding what you first said. The root of Islam is hatred of jews / the Koran talks about killing infidels.

But actually it is in context as an example of how to focus on differances and make them define the enemy. It is an almost perfect example of what I am trying to explain.

Personal: I know from other threads that you belive strongly in the word of the Bible and I guess reading stuff like this from someone elses holy book make a great impact on you. Not on me, I don't believe in the Bible on a sentence basis and I don't think all muslims do either. Your muslim counterpart can surley make the same case upon you as you on him.

 

[glockmail]

It is out of context regarding what you first said. The root of Islam is hatred of jews / the Koran talks about killing infidels.

But actually it is in context as an example of how to focus on differances and make them define the enemy. It is an almost perfect example of what I am trying to explain.

Personal: I know from other threads that you belive strongly in the word of the Bible and I guess reading stuff like this from someone elses holy book make a great impact on you. Not on me, I don't believe in the Bible on a sentence basis and I don't think all muslims do either. Your muslim counterpart can surley make the same case upon you as you on him.

Where does it say in the Bible to kill non-believers?

 

[Gunny]

Where does it say in the Bible to kill non-believers?

Read the book of Kings.

 

[glockmail]

Read the book of Kings.

Any specifc chapter/ verse or do I have to guess at what you want to discuss?

 

[ErikViking]

Where does it say in the Bible to kill non-believers?

I am not going to argue from your presumed opponents standpoint. It would be nice if the Bible has no such text, but if it had I wouldn't accept it as a muslim fanatics argument. It wouldn't be me.

I remember however an interesting passage in the Bible:

You remeber about God saved one of his followers, Lot? Lot was worried about the rest of the people about to die and God told him that if he could find just one other beliver, He would spare the city. As he fails God lets the city perrish and although warned Lots wife turns around and gets turned into salt.

This little story could be read in different contexts. It could be read from a muslim fanatic standpoint: Everyone not obeying God shall die. Even the good ones who just happens to make a mistake. Christianity is cruel and not forgiving.

or my own little interpretation:

We can have an open mind about this text. First of all, everyone should be saved if only one good soul was found. (Compare that to the common view that all muslims should be delt with as long as one bad can be found) Also it is an obvious metaphor. People don't get turned into salt. It is the Bibles equivalent of how to break a habit. Lots wife didn't turn around in curiosity alone - she wasn't fully ready to let go. In order to start their new life they needed to cut the past out. Compare... drug-treatment.

EDIT:
Maybe I should mention that I am not schooled in anyway of interpreting Bible text, so this is just an example of normal guy reading a 2k years old text. So if any real theologist find my little interpretation wrong you're probably right.

 

[Eightball]

Read the book of Kings.

Folks:

Please keep in mind that all those cities that were wiped out of all living things by order of God, was because God said that there was not one living being in those cities that did or would turn to Him.

Now, It sounds cruel in the context of thinking that it is bad to take a life, but the context of kings, and or Genesis, is that God created every living being, and knows who is evil to the core, and unredeemable, and who is.
****
In the Koran, isn't Mohammed making the human value judgement, not Allah?

First of all Mohammed comes along about 600 years after Christ too. He has an axe to grind with the Jews. To hate anyone who didn't follow Allah, and to exterminate them was a way to propagate Mohammed's new, enlightenment .
*****
Not once in the bible are human beings told to take lives without the direct command of the One who created those lives.

Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho, etc. were all deemed totally evil filled.

Now there was Rahab, the Harlot, who was spared in one city, but she also had a different heart towards God's people than the other inhabitants of her city. God allowed her life spared.
****
I know it will come down to folks saying, what makes you think the bible is the actual true belief system, versus......B,C, or D. system?
********
The bible is a revealing of God's nature. When folks take the bible superficially, they see God as an indescriminate murderer.

If one carefully studies the bible, one will see that within it's pages is revealed a God who is sovereign over all, because He created all. He know's the outcome of a human life before it was even created. He is not time-bound as we humans are. He know's the heart of man, to the core. Also as Creator, He does have dominion over his creation. That should go with out saying. For the clay to question the potter's intent, is absolute lunacy.
*******
Mohammed would never qualify as a prophet under biblical standards. In fact neither would Joseph Smith Jr., Reverend Moon, etc...
*****

 

[glockmail]

I am not going to argue from your presumed opponents standpoint……. (Compare that to the common view that all muslims should be delt with as long as one bad can be found) …..

…..

1. So basically you can’t find in the Bible where we are told to kill non-believers. Is that correct?
2. This is a common belief? Is there a web site where a listing of common beliefs can be found?, because this is the first time I’ve ever read that viewpoint.

 

[ErikViking]

1. So basically you can’t find in the Bible where we are told to kill non-believers. Is that correct?
2. This is a common belief? Is there a web site where a listing of common beliefs can be found?, because this is the first time I’ve ever read that viewpoint.

Basically I obviously don't read the Bible like you read the Koran. Nor do I wish to do so.
But for arguments sake can't you comment on the Sodom thing from an outside perspective? We don't know the Koran like we know the Bible and we can't ever hope to do so. It is a question of belief.

And right... I exagerated.

 

[glockmail]

Basically I obviously don't read the Bible like you read the Koran. Nor do I wish to do so.
But for arguments sake can't you comment on the Sodom thing from an outside perspective? We don't know the Koran like we know the Bible and we can't ever hope to do so. It is a question of belief.

And right... I exagerated.

They are both difficult books to read. I've found this site to be most helpful. Although it’s is sponsored by an atheist, what he says are contradictions in the Bible, after a little research I’ve been able to prove otherwise. Not so with the Koran, however, as those contradictions are real.