My problem with the NFL re: National Anthem

[ChrisL]

They are taking advantage of their on camera time is all. What else do they do besides refuse to respect the flag that stands for the country that made them so rich!

 

[Mac1958]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should!

Freedom of expression is about protecting words we don't like, not just words we do like. You would want your opinion heard.

Look at it this way: We have one end of the political spectrum loudly saying that our Constitution was written by rich, white slave rapists; that our national anthem is racist; that the country is racist; that our country is greedy; that our history and traditions must be rubbed out and/or changed. Their opinion of this country is pretty clear.

Trump's presence in the White House is largely about a pushback on those sentiments, so if you're a Trump fan, you should be pretty happy that these people have the freedom to say this stuff.

That's the beauty (at least one of them) of freedom of expression.
.

And I have the freedom to express my opinions of their opinions.

Yup.

But I do think you owe some of these folks a big ol' Thank You card.


.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

I gave up my season tickets years ago... just not worth the money.

 

[Freewill]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should!

Freedom of expression is about protecting words we don't like, not just words we do like. You would want your opinion heard.

Look at it this way: We have one end of the political spectrum loudly saying that our Constitution was written by rich, white slave rapists; that our national anthem is racist; that the country is racist; that our country is greedy; that our history and traditions must be rubbed out and/or changed. Their opinion of this country is pretty clear.

Trump's presence in the White House is largely about a pushback on those sentiments, so if you're a Trump fan, you should be pretty happy that these people have the freedom to say this stuff.

That's the beauty (at least one of them) of freedom of expression.
.

"Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." -- The First Amendment

Freedom of expression, is an ACLU made up term. Read the first amendment and what it actually does say.

 

[Mac1958]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should!

Freedom of expression is about protecting words we don't like, not just words we do like. You would want your opinion heard.

Look at it this way: We have one end of the political spectrum loudly saying that our Constitution was written by rich, white slave rapists; that our national anthem is racist; that the country is racist; that our country is greedy; that our history and traditions must be rubbed out and/or changed. Their opinion of this country is pretty clear.

Trump's presence in the White House is largely about a pushback on those sentiments, so if you're a Trump fan, you should be pretty happy that these people have the freedom to say this stuff.

That's the beauty (at least one of them) of freedom of expression.
.

"Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." -- The First Amendment

Freedom of expression, is an ACLU made up term. Read the first amendment and what it actually does say.

Yes, I make a specific distinction between the two. I believe in freedom of expression, and I'll always defend it.
.

 

[ChrisL]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should!

Freedom of expression is about protecting words we don't like, not just words we do like. You would want your opinion heard.

Look at it this way: We have one end of the political spectrum loudly saying that our Constitution was written by rich, white slave rapists; that our national anthem is racist; that the country is racist; that our country is greedy; that our history and traditions must be rubbed out and/or changed. Their opinion of this country is pretty clear.

Trump's presence in the White House is largely about a pushback on those sentiments, so if you're a Trump fan, you should be pretty happy that these people have the freedom to say this stuff.

That's the beauty (at least one of them) of freedom of expression.
.

And I have the freedom to express my opinions of their opinions.

Yup.

But I do think you owe some of these folks a big ol' Thank You card.


.

For what? Injecting politics into sports?

 

[ChrisL]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should!

Freedom of expression is about protecting words we don't like, not just words we do like. You would want your opinion heard.

Look at it this way: We have one end of the political spectrum loudly saying that our Constitution was written by rich, white slave rapists; that our national anthem is racist; that the country is racist; that our country is greedy; that our history and traditions must be rubbed out and/or changed. Their opinion of this country is pretty clear.

Trump's presence in the White House is largely about a pushback on those sentiments, so if you're a Trump fan, you should be pretty happy that these people have the freedom to say this stuff.

That's the beauty (at least one of them) of freedom of expression.
.

"Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." -- The First Amendment

Freedom of expression, is an ACLU made up term. Read the first amendment and what it actually does say.

Yes, I make a specific distinction between the two. I believe in freedom of expression, and I'll always defend it.
.

They can express themselves. Nobody has said they can't. You don't have any rights to inject your political viewpoints into your job though. Do that shit on your own time. They are taking advantage of being in front of the camera is all.

 

[usmbguest5318]

I couldn't think of something polite to say in response to Jim's comment, so I just didn't post anything.

Dont really want to derail this thread, but do you seriously think that everyone flying the CBF has only one purpose for doing so?

That is very simplistic.

I think about what the flag -- any flag; it doesn't matter whether its the CSA flag or another one -- unequivocally has represented over the years and infer that by dint of their willful display of the flag in question, the individual must necessarily be okay with associating him-/herself with those ideas along with whatever personal motivations s/he may have. Why do I think that way? Because if one were not proud of and keen to align with all the "baggage" a flag or other image, slogan, or symbol carries, one would choose a different pennant or image or symbol or whatever.

For instance, from a graphic design standpoint, I think the CBF is a pretty combination of shapes and colors. I'd even go so far as to say that from a graphic design standpoint, it's more handsome to my eye than is the American flag. Be that as it may, I am aware of what that particular arrangement of shapes and colors represents beyond being merely, for lack of a better term, fashion item or decorative accessory like a shirt print, curtains, upholstery, or vase.

All that "baggage" that accompanies the CBF, well, I don't ascribe to it; thus I'm not about to display it anywhere, nor will I allow myself to be willfully associated with that "baggage." Does that mean I won't be able to wear, say, a shirt that graphically I think looks cool? Yes, it does mean that. But you know what. My life will not be incomplete as a result. It is hardly the only f*cking pattern that I think handsome.

Now what I just discussed pertains to the CBF design, not the CBF as a flag. As a flag, it's a whole different thing. A flag, any flag, is rallying symbol, both physically and ideologically, and all that "baggage" is what's rallied around. Flags, pennants and banners symbolically identify a set of values and beliefs and when hoisted on a pole, stick, whatever, say "Yo! Here we are. We stand for the stuff represented by the symbology on our flag, and we're proud of it."

That is point of a flag: to more visibly make known one's presence and association with a set of ideas. The difference between a flag and a badge is a difference of volume. Flags are all about hollering at the top of one's lungs.

Yes, of course, one can play ignorant and say "oh, no, I don't mean 'all that,'" but that one doesn't is irrelevant because regardless of what one as an individual may or may not mean, that flag, it's imagery, does mean "all that." Symbolically, a flag is encompases and transcends the person displaying it and one cannot separate oneself from the flag's symbolism. Maybe "over the garden fence" with one's neighbor one can. Walking down the street, one cannot.

 

[Mac1958]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should!

Freedom of expression is about protecting words we don't like, not just words we do like. You would want your opinion heard.

Look at it this way: We have one end of the political spectrum loudly saying that our Constitution was written by rich, white slave rapists; that our national anthem is racist; that the country is racist; that our country is greedy; that our history and traditions must be rubbed out and/or changed. Their opinion of this country is pretty clear.

Trump's presence in the White House is largely about a pushback on those sentiments, so if you're a Trump fan, you should be pretty happy that these people have the freedom to say this stuff.

That's the beauty (at least one of them) of freedom of expression.
.

And I have the freedom to express my opinions of their opinions.

Yup.

But I do think you owe some of these folks a big ol' Thank You card.


.

For what? Injecting politics into sports?

For pissing off enough people with this stuff to create the backlash that got Trump elected.
.

 

[Taz]

STFU you fucking hypocrite, I bet you've NEVER stood up at home when you hear a national anthem.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

At least the Chinese don't sit around drinking tea and complaining about all the other people who don't stand when they drink tea.

Did you wake up this morning with the intent to be an asshole? If not, you succeeded anyway!

You couldn't dispute what I said so you turned to a personal attack. Your concession is duly noted.

Oh, so you didn't call someone a hypocrite and tell them to STFU?

Taz, meet Ignore!

Taz is a fucking idiot.

Ignore, meet Taz.

Ignore doesn't say much. In fact, he never says anything!

Bonzi and I are old friends. Plus, I was right.

 

[usmbguest5318]

I see photos like the one in your post, Hutch Starskey, and I'm reminded that people want us to believe that the Confederate flag wavers aren't espousing hatred and bigotry. In turn, I wonder just how stupid are the people who say that is so, but I know the answer: stupid enough to think the rest of us believe sh*t when they utter it.

I used to have the CBF displayed at my home in MD, and when a neighbor complained to me personally about it and explained why, I took it down and put it in my closet.

My sole reason for displaying the flag was that I am a military history fan, and I enjoy reading about the Civil War and displayed the flag as a reminder of that war.

Others, like the Sons of Confederate Veterans display their flags in annual ceremonies honoring the Civil War dead of both sides.

You really shouldnt play Kreskin and try to read the minds of other people whose pics you see on the internet.

There's no ambiguity about the intentions of the flag bearers in the subject photo.

View attachment 151235

Thank you.

I couldn't think of something polite to say in response to Jim's comment, so I just didn't post anything.

They have the same right to carry those flags as the players do in speaking their minds. Hiowever, the flagbearers are in an actual protest, not standing on a field getting ready to do their job.

Since when does protesting and self expression have temporal requirements?

 

[ChrisL]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should!

Freedom of expression is about protecting words we don't like, not just words we do like. You would want your opinion heard.

Look at it this way: We have one end of the political spectrum loudly saying that our Constitution was written by rich, white slave rapists; that our national anthem is racist; that the country is racist; that our country is greedy; that our history and traditions must be rubbed out and/or changed. Their opinion of this country is pretty clear.

Trump's presence in the White House is largely about a pushback on those sentiments, so if you're a Trump fan, you should be pretty happy that these people have the freedom to say this stuff.

That's the beauty (at least one of them) of freedom of expression.
.

And I have the freedom to express my opinions of their opinions.

Yup.

But I do think you owe some of these folks a big ol' Thank You card.


.

For what? Injecting politics into sports?

For pissing off enough people with this stuff to create the backlash that got Trump elected.
.

I didn't really want Trump to be the president. He was just better than the other choice IMO. Too bad 3rd party candidates are never viable candidates. Gary Johnson had a shot at it, but he blew it big time.

 

[Taz]

Per the NFL rulebook:

1. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country.

Why do you not respect the flag or our country. Our country is the people. There are other ways to show your discontent with the President. People take not standing up for the flag as an insult on the United States as a unit. It makes people feel that you don't want to be here or don't like the unit as a whole (not just the administration) - and there are a lot of people that worked hard to build the US that are still alive today. There are a lot of people young and old that have risked their lives for the United States.

STFU you fucking hypocrite, I bet you've NEVER stood up at home when you hear a national anthem.

I'm usually not watching the game when it's being played, but, no, I would not you are correct. But when I am at the events I always do (and I also sing along, which I'm sure is QUITE offensive to those around me!)

So you're a hypocrite. Now you know.

Wanna be sure I got this straight....you support the right for players to protest against something, but you do not support her eright to say she doesn't like it - and she is the hypocrite?

That's pretty funny.

She's complaining about something other people don't do, when she doesn't even do it herself. And I never said anything about her right to be wrong, just like you. Go ahead, you already have some momentum.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Now what I just discussed pertains to the CBF design, not the CBF as a flag. As a flag, it's a whole different thing. A flag, any flag, is rallying symbol, both physically and ideologically, and all that "baggage" is what's rallied around. Flags, pennants and banners symbolically identify a set of values and beliefs and when hoisted on a pole, stick, whatever, say "Yo! Here we are. We stand for the stuff represented by the symbology on our flag, and we're proud of it."

That is point of a flag: to more visibly make known one's presence and association with a set of ideas. The difference between a flag and a badge is a difference of volume. Flags are all about hollering at the top of one's lungs.

Yes, of course, one can play ignorant and say "oh, no, I don't mean 'all that,'" but that one doesn't is irrelevant because regardless of what one as an individual may or may not mean, that flag, it's imagery, does mean "all that." Symbolically, a flag is encompases and transcends the person displaying it and one cannot separate oneself from the flag's symbolism. Maybe "over the garden fence" with one's neighbor one can. Walking down the street, one cannot.

The question is WHO DEFINES what a flag represents?

It is not the fringe kookburgers that try to hijack it and whose opponents gleefully agree to give it to those fringe elements, no.

The millions of people who fought under that flag, who bled and died for it, who worked their fingers to the bone to support it, who use it in ceremonies year after year for centuries, THEY DEFINE WHAT THAT FLAG MEANS.

Not a bunch of FBI informants and Soros hirelings trying to be legit to a bunch of racists.

Edit: this is my last response to this subject on this thread as I dont want to hijack it.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

I'd be pissed off and protesting too if I were making millions playing a game.

 

[usmbguest5318]

Per the NFL rulebook:

1. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country.

Why do you not respect the flag or our country. Our country is the people. There are other ways to show your discontent with the President. People take not standing up for the flag as an insult on the United States as a unit. It makes people feel that you don't want to be here or don't like the unit as a whole (not just the administration) - and there are a lot of people that worked hard to build the US that are still alive today. There are a lot of people young and old that have risked their lives for the United States.

It's a non-issue. These are silent protests that hurt no one. It's only meant to bring attention to social inequities. No one is being attacked, there is nothing destructive in doing so.

This below is what destructive, devisive behavior and disrespect looks like.

View attachment 151215

I see photos like the one in your post, Hutch Starskey, and I'm reminded that people want us to believe that the Confederate flag wavers aren't espousing hatred and bigotry. In turn, I wonder just how stupid are the people who say that is so, but I know the answer: stupid enough to think the rest of us believe sh*t when they utter it.

What would happen to an NFL player if he took out a confederate battle flag and waved it during the National Anthem?

Do you believe it's respectful of the flag to wave a confederate battle flag at all?

You do realize tat waving a Confederate Battle flag would be considered the same type of protest you are supporting? There is no difference.

Let me try waving a Confederate Battle flag at work and see what happens to me!

In my firm, you might get away with it depending on how you display it. If it's just the imagery on your smartphone case/cover, nobody would say anything to you about it.

Now if you or anyone goes walking around with an actual flag, well, that would not go over well, not so much because of the imagery, but because you'd be walking around our offices or our clients offices with a goddamned flag. It could be a flag of surrender and you'd hear words.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I'd be pissed off and protesting too if I were making millions playing a game.

OMG, the inhumanity!

 

[usmbguest5318]

Now what I just discussed pertains to the CBF design, not the CBF as a flag. As a flag, it's a whole different thing. A flag, any flag, is rallying symbol, both physically and ideologically, and all that "baggage" is what's rallied around. Flags, pennants and banners symbolically identify a set of values and beliefs and when hoisted on a pole, stick, whatever, say "Yo! Here we are. We stand for the stuff represented by the symbology on our flag, and we're proud of it."

That is point of a flag: to more visibly make known one's presence and association with a set of ideas. The difference between a flag and a badge is a difference of volume. Flags are all about hollering at the top of one's lungs.

Yes, of course, one can play ignorant and say "oh, no, I don't mean 'all that,'" but that one doesn't is irrelevant because regardless of what one as an individual may or may not mean, that flag, it's imagery, does mean "all that." Symbolically, a flag is encompases and transcends the person displaying it and one cannot separate oneself from the flag's symbolism. Maybe "over the garden fence" with one's neighbor one can. Walking down the street, one cannot.

The question is WHO DEFINES what a flag represents?

It is not the fringe kookburgers that try to hijack it and whose opponents gleefully agree to give it to those fringe elements, no.

The millions of people who fought under that flag, who bled and died for it, who worked their fingers to the bone to support it, who use it in ceremonies year after year for centuries, THEY DEFINE WHAT THAT FLAG MEANS.

Not a bunch of FBI informants and Soros hirelings trying to be legit to a bunch of racists.

Edit: this is my last response to this subject on this thread as I dont want to hijack it.

The question is WHO DEFINES what a flag represents?

The people who implemented it and are most widely recognized for having used it.

 

[easyt65]

ACTUALLY, the ONLY thing that matters in this case is the governing NFL Laws / Regulations.

Roger Goodell is a grade-A FAILURE and PU$$Y. He might as well be called the 'WHITE BARAK OBAMA of the NFL', as he is REFUSING to enforce the law / NFL policy:



"https://news.grabien.com/story-roger-goodell-ignoring-leagues-own-rule-book-letting-players


The NFL rule book specifically requires both teams appear on the field for the playing of the anthem, standing, remaining quiet, and holding their helmets in their left hands. Failure to do so can result in fines, suspensions, and the loss of draft picks.


The rules are found on pages A62-63 of the league’s game operations manual:


The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.


During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses."


A bunch of over-paid, liberal hypocrites run by a POS failed Commissioner...

 

[JimBowie1958]

ACTUALLY, the ONLY thing that matters in this case is the governing NFL Laws / Regulations.

Roger Goodell is a grade-A FAILURE and PU$$Y. He might as well be called the 'WHITE BARAK OBAMA of the NFL', as he is REFUSING to enforce the law / NFL policy:



"https://news.grabien.com/story-roger-goodell-ignoring-leagues-own-rule-book-letting-players


The NFL rule book specifically requires both teams appear on the field for the playing of the anthem, standing, remaining quiet, and holding their helmets in their left hands. Failure to do so can result in fines, suspensions, and the loss of draft picks.


The rules are found on pages A62-63 of the league’s game operations manual:


The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.


During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses."


A bunch of over-paid, liberal hypocrites run by a POS failed Commissioner...

Here is the actual manual, and I dont see it

http://operations.nfl.com/media/2725/2017-playing-rules.pdf