Myths and facts about Jerusalem and Temple Mount

[Saigon]

I tend to "excuse" much of Rose and Roudy's offensive remarks because Rose has a husband and family who suffered greatly under Shariah law in an Islamic country. They fled and also suffered in making their escape.
I believe Roudy was born in an Islamic country and imagine he may have friends and family who also suffered as Jews in a Shariah country.
For them, the conflict is intensely personal and emotionally charged.

Thanks, Annika.

Certainly when I lived in Israel a great number of my friends held fairly extreme views on the conflict, which I could understand based on the fact that we lived with the constant threat of attack. It's not easy to be generous when waiting for the next RPG to sail past.

But neither Rosie nor Roudy have any personal experience of the Palestinian conflict beyond being Jewish.

As far as I can tell,both are poorly informed, both endlessly dishonest, and borh motivated largely by racial hatred.

If Palestinians didn't exist - they'd have to invent them.

I am also concerned that other Jewish and pro-Israeli posters refuse to call them on the lies and racism, presumably finding dishonesty conveniant.

My position - any genuine supporter of Israel should stick with facts and truth. Lying only strengthens for the forces of extremism and violence.

 

[Lipush]

"If Palestinians didn't exist - they'd have to invent them. "

We usually say that about us and the Palestinians the other way around.

Aint that a small worls, hua?

 

[Saigon]

Rosie -

Since you ask (in post #236) -

I have read all your sources. Your are an idiot.
of course jews NEGOTIATED WITH SHIT LIKE YOU---
cops negotiate with the mafia too. MOST nations of the world
are extinct----NEGOTIATION with shit like you is how jews survived
shit like you
Jews continue to talk to shit---it is the basis of jewish HUMOR<<< make a deal
with a lump or shit------then come home and laugh about it

My sources, which were clearly marked, were Jewish historians Raul Hilberg and Hannah Arendt.

 

[theliq]

"If Palestinians didn't exist - they'd have to invent them. "

We usually say that about us and the Palestinians the other way around.

Aint that a small worls, hua?

"Children of Israel,the Future is Yours" Yeah and everyone else is PAYING FOR IT.

 

[Saigon]

"If Palestinians didn't exist - they'd have to invent them. "

We usually say that about us and the Palestinians the other way around.

Aint that a small worls, hua?

Absolutely!!

And I think there are quite a few conflicts around the world where the identity of one people if forged through opposition to another group. Hutu & Tutsi in Rwanda, Armenians & Turks, even Russians & Americans during the 1950's were never more themselves than when they were attacking the other!!

It's an unfortunate thing, but I do think peoples can also overcome that and move forward with an even stronger sense of identity.

 

[Lipush]

"If Palestinians didn't exist - they'd have to invent them. "

We usually say that about us and the Palestinians the other way around.

Aint that a small worls, hua?

"Children of Israel,the Future is Yours" Yeah and everyone else is PAYING FOR IT.

Children cannot pay for their education themselves. This is the adult's job.

So your statement doesn't bring anything new, actually.

 

[irosie91]

Toastman -

The main problem I found in Israel with the Palestinian issues is that both sides tend to portray themselves as innocent, and as victims. Both sides complain about how the other side attack them - while attacking the other side and saying they had no choice. After a year in Israel I began to get tired of both sides exaggerating and sometimes simply lying about simple historical facts.

What I figured is that the conflict can end only when Palestinans are ready to describe what they do as terror, and to stop asking for Israel to disappear, for instance. Both sides need to be honest about history, and accept fact as fact.

What bugs me about people like Roudy and Rosie is that they are stuck in a mindset of brainless racism; in which any lie is acceptable and fine providing it
is about Arabs. They are then the first to whine about anti-Semitic posters - at
least one of whom sites Roudy as a reason to post here.

Roudy and Rosie don't live in Israel - but they have no problem playing their part if ensuring the conflict continune. They are not the people who pay the price for their hatred and racism - ordinary Israeli people are the ones who actually face the wrath of Palestinians on a daily basis. When I read some of Roudy's posts - well, I'd say I understand where some of that pathological Palestinian hatred and racism comes from.

You make several very reasonable points here.

I tend to "excuse" much of Rose and Roudy's offensive remarks because Rose has a husband and family who suffered greatly under Shariah law in an Islamic country. They fled and also suffered in making their escape.
I believe Roudy was born in an Islamic country and imagine he may have friends and family who also suffered as Jews in a Shariah country.
For them, the conflict is intensely personal and emotionally charged.

BULLSHIT.....Your attempt at trying to excuse the Criminals Roudy and Rosie after over 8,000.....of which there were 1500 children and infants, Palestinians have been Slaughtered by Israel/Jews since 1948....WHICH THEY REJOICE AT,AND HOPE CONTINUES.

Shame you don't have the SAME SYMPATHY FOR THE PALESTINIANS.

You are just another FCUKARD like the rest........Take your "TEND" out of your and shove into your "EXCUSE" of a MOUTH.

I would bet their stories of repression are COMPLETE BULLSHIT.

Go away from this place,your thoughts have been noted and now reside in the nearest GARBAGE BIN.

Thanks but NO THANKS.

I am in a kind mood today Annika,that's why I have been gentle with you,for you know not what you say.

I am amazed LIQ I am not all that fond of DEATH NUMBERS-----but you are bringing
up a number----8000 since 1948---- which pales to NOTHING in the face of the DOZENS OF MILLIONS of non muslims ---murdered BY MUSLIMS----INTER RELIGION
WARS since 1948 I am---of course---leaving out the intra muslim sectarian
blood letting----just the "LETS KILL THE KAFFIRIN CAMPAIGNS---since 1948

Over 1400 years the numbers rise to HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS-----

try to maintain some perspective. No killing would be best---but the fact is
that Israel faces a KILLING MACHINE that has been at it for 1400 years
and COUNTING------right now that machine is picking up momentum
across the world

a bit of an aside. If you were not a bit alerted when Achmadinejad
DECLARED in the UN "ISLAM IS THE RELIGION FOR ALL THE WORLD"

then you are stupid.

I vividly remember Kruschev announcing 'WE WILL BURY YOU---YOUR
GRANDCHILDREN WILL GROW UP UNDER COMMUNISM"

as the forerunner to genocides in the tens of milions by communist
movements across asia 8000? is that number real?
in 64 years---averaging a few hundred per year?

not nice but certainly not startling like the
BIAFRAN GENOCIDE OF THE 1970s

sit tight----I believe things are going to get a lot worse

 

[theliq]

"If Palestinians didn't exist - they'd have to invent them. "

We usually say that about us and the Palestinians the other way around.

Aint that a small worls, hua?

Absolutely!!

And I think there are quite a few conflicts around the world where the identity of one people if forged through opposition to another group. Hutu & Tutsi in Rwanda, Armenians & Turks, even Russians & Americans during the 1950's were never more themselves than when they were attacking the other!!

It's an unfortunate thing, but I do think peoples can also overcome that and move forward with an even stronger sense of identity.

And Siagon,the Americans were/are the worst demonizers of others...WHEN IT SUITS THEM

 

[Lipush]

"If Palestinians didn't exist - they'd have to invent them. "

We usually say that about us and the Palestinians the other way around.

Aint that a small worls, hua?

Absolutely!!

And I think there are quite a few conflicts around the world where the identity of one people if forged through opposition to another group. Hutu & Tutsi in Rwanda, Armenians & Turks, even Russians & Americans during the 1950's were never more themselves than when they were attacking the other!!

It's an unfortunate thing, but I do think peoples can also overcome that and move forward with an even stronger sense of identity.

we didn't reach that level of tolerant thinking yet, because there is too much "bad blood" between us and the Palestinians. being completely honest, each side believes its way is the right way, and we attach ourselves to the memoty of our lost ones so tightly we somehow forget the big picture and cannot detach ourselves from anger and pain to see more widly. It will take many many years to overcome this stubborness and Survival mechanism, if at all it'll happen.

 

[Lipush]

"If Palestinians didn't exist - they'd have to invent them. "

We usually say that about us and the Palestinians the other way around.

Aint that a small worls, hua?

Absolutely!!

And I think there are quite a few conflicts around the world where the identity of one people if forged through opposition to another group. Hutu & Tutsi in Rwanda, Armenians & Turks, even Russians & Americans during the 1950's were never more themselves than when they were attacking the other!!

It's an unfortunate thing, but I do think peoples can also overcome that and move forward with an even stronger sense of identity.

And Siagon,the Americans were/are the worst demonizers of others...WHEN IT SUITS THEM

Yeah, a classic example for "seeing the big picture".

NOT

 

[theliq]

You make several very reasonable points here.

I tend to "excuse" much of Rose and Roudy's offensive remarks because Rose has a husband and family who suffered greatly under Shariah law in an Islamic country. They fled and also suffered in making their escape.
I believe Roudy was born in an Islamic country and imagine he may have friends and family who also suffered as Jews in a Shariah country.
For them, the conflict is intensely personal and emotionally charged.

BULLSHIT.....Your attempt at trying to excuse the Criminals Roudy and Rosie after over 8,000.....of which there were 1500 children and infants, Palestinians have been Slaughtered by Israel/Jews since 1948....WHICH THEY REJOICE AT,AND HOPE CONTINUES.

Shame you don't have the SAME SYMPATHY FOR THE PALESTINIANS.

You are just another FCUKARD like the rest........Take your "TEND" out of your and shove into your "EXCUSE" of a MOUTH.

I would bet their stories of repression are COMPLETE BULLSHIT.

Go away from this place,your thoughts have been noted and now reside in the nearest GARBAGE BIN.

Thanks but NO THANKS.

I am in a kind mood today Annika,that's why I have been gentle with you,for you know not what you say.

I am amazed LIQ I am not all that fond of DEATH NUMBERS-----but you are bringing
up a number----8000 since 1948---- which pales to NOTHING in the face of the DOZENS OF MILLIONS of non muslims ---murdered BY MUSLIMS----INTER RELIGION
WARS since 1948 I am---of course---leaving out the intra muslim sectarian
blood letting----just the "LETS KILL THE KAFFIRIN CAMPAIGNS---since 1948

Over 1400 years the numbers rise to HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS-----

try to maintain some perspective. No killing would be best---but the fact is
that Israel faces a KILLING MACHINE that has been at it for 1400 years
and COUNTING------right now that machine is picking up momentum
across the world

a bit of an aside. If you were not a bit alerted when Achmadinejad
DECLARED in the UN "ISLAM IS THE RELIGION FOR ALL THE WORLD"

then you are stupid.

I vividly remember Kruschev announcing 'WE WILL BURY YOU---YOUR
GRANDCHILDREN WILL GROW UP UNDER COMMUNISM"

as the forerunner to genocides in the tens of milions by communist
movements across asia 8000? is that number real?
in 64 years---averaging a few hundred per year?

not nice but certainly not startling like the
BIAFRAN GENOCIDE OF THE 1970s

sit tight----I believe things are going to get a lot worse

YOU SAID IT ALL WITH "IT PALES INTO NOTHING"......well from now I have drawn a line in the Sand and will Never Dialogue with You Again.

 

[Saigon]

"If Palestinians didn't exist - they'd have to invent them. "

We usually say that about us and the Palestinians the other way around.

Aint that a small worls, hua?

Absolutely!!

And I think there are quite a few conflicts around the world where the identity of one people if forged through opposition to another group. Hutu & Tutsi in Rwanda, Armenians & Turks, even Russians & Americans during the 1950's were never more themselves than when they were attacking the other!!

It's an unfortunate thing, but I do think peoples can also overcome that and move forward with an even stronger sense of identity.

we didn't reach that level of tolerant thinking yet, because there is too much "bad blood" between us and the Palestinians. being completely honest, each side believes its way is the right way, and we attach ourselves to the memoty of our lost ones so tightly we somehow forget the big picture and cannot detach ourselves from anger and pain to see more widly. It will take many many years to overcome this stubborness and Survival mechanism, if at all it'll happen.

Those are very wise thoughts, Lipush.

I think it takes time for people to start to let go, and that process can only really start when the violence stops. It needs for the Israeli people to be able to realise that they haven't had a missile land nearby for a year or two before they can start to trust and start to see the Palestinians in a different light. And likewise the other way around.

I've always thought Israel's best tactic in Gaza was to do everything possible to allow life there to reach a certain level of normality, because if there are no attacks, no drones, no checkpoints and no raids, it will force Gazans to blame Hamas for their poverty, and not Israel. Everytime Israel attacks Gaza, it lets Hamas off the hook.

 

[Lipush]

Absolutely!!

And I think there are quite a few conflicts around the world where the identity of one people if forged through opposition to another group. Hutu & Tutsi in Rwanda, Armenians & Turks, even Russians & Americans during the 1950's were never more themselves than when they were attacking the other!!

It's an unfortunate thing, but I do think peoples can also overcome that and move forward with an even stronger sense of identity.

we didn't reach that level of tolerant thinking yet, because there is too much "bad blood" between us and the Palestinians. being completely honest, each side believes its way is the right way, and we attach ourselves to the memoty of our lost ones so tightly we somehow forget the big picture and cannot detach ourselves from anger and pain to see more widly. It will take many many years to overcome this stubborness and Survival mechanism, if at all it'll happen.

Those are very wise thoughts, Lipush.

I think it takes time for people to start to let go, and that process can only really start when the violence stops. It needs for the Israeli people to be able to realise that they haven't had a missile land nearby for a year or two before they can start to trust and start to see the Palestinians in a different light. And likewise the other way around.

I've always thought Israel's best tactic in Gaza was to do everything possible to allow life there to reach a certain level of normality, because if there are no attacks, no drones, no checkpoints and no raids, it will force Gazans to blame Hamas for their poverty, and not Israel. Everytime Israel attacks Gaza, it lets Hamas off the hook.

And that will also means that we have to let our defenses drop. Israel could never allow herself to do that.

It reminds me of the basic rule for every IDF soldier. "Never let go of your rifle", not even in your sleep. That's a mental note more than a physical one. To people who're so used to have a wall (weather in reality or in mental emotional figure) it's difficult to impossible to let go of this simple protection option.

I wish we could get to a point where we could trust Palestinians enough to let them have this "normality", because normality there, in Gaza, meanst normality in Israel, too. if there are no drones or airplanes or tanks, there are no soldiers risking their lives managing them. which is best for all.

 

[Saigon]

Lipush -

I don't think Israel can afford to let her defences drop, but they can defend in a different way.

For instance, future Palestinian ports, airports and international borders could allow UN or EU inspectors to run the customs and freight control, to ensure no guns are allowed into Palestine. Israel could observe. This allows Palestinians to feel that they have their own rights and freedoms, but also defnd Israel from an influx of weapons.

Also, Israel's land border with the West Bank could utilise part of the existing partition wall, which could even be extended along the entire border. It's not ideal, but it is a solution both sides could probably live with.

 

[irosie91]

I do not believe that the hostility which the "palestinians"
bear toward israel is entirely or even MOSTLY "poverty" driven.
It is ideological. Does anyone here believe that attacks on Copts
in Egypt are based MOSTLY on economics.? Does anyone here believe
that the Ku Klux Klan people lynched blacks on sex libels because the
klanners were impoverished compared to the blacks?

Who are the taliban? impoverished pakistanis in comparison ---to WHOM?

 

[iolo]

Myths and facts about Jerusalem and Temple Mount

1) The Islamic claim to the Temple Mount is very recent - Jerusalem's role as "The Third Holiest Site in Islam" in mainstream Islamic writings does not precede the 1930s. It was created by the grand mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini.

2) The Islamic claim to Jerusalem is false - There were no mosques in Jerusalem in 632 c.e. at the death of Muhammad... Jerusalem was [then] a Christian-occupied city. The muslim "claim" to Jerusalem is allegedly based on what is written in the koran, which although does not mention Jerusalem even once, nevertheless talks of the "furthest mosque" (in Sura 17:1) Is there any foundation to the muslim argument that this "furthest mosque" (al-masujidi al-aqsa) refers to what is today called the Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem? The answer is, NO!

3) The present Arabic name of Jerusalem is "Al-Quds"... but "Al-Quds" is an abbreviation for "The Jewish Temple"!
The Arabic name for Jerusalem is "Al-QuDS" (The Holy), which is abbreviation for another Arabic name used for Jerusalem until the last century, "Bayt al-MaQDeS" (The Holy House), since the 10th century c.e. The name "Bayt al-MaQDeS" is a translation of the Hebrew "Beyt ha-MiKDaSH", which means "House of Holiness", "Temple". But Islam has no Temple, only the Jews did. Thus the Arabic name for Jerusalem makes no reference to Muhammad's alleged trip to Heaven, but rather refers to the Jewish Temple!
In fact, it can be seen that significant Islamic interest in the Temple Mount does not precede the Six-Day War in 1967.

Jerusalem. like the rest of Palestine, belongs to the descendants of the original settlers, as everywhere where there was agriculture. In Palestine these were mainly the people living there before the nazi colonisation started under the British. The Romans, as everyone knows, were not zionists and didn't go in for ethnic cleansing, so there was no great change of population. The descendants of those who built the Temple are now Muslim or Christian - it happened throughout the Middle East, obviously. Fight racist colonialism NOW!

 

[Lipush]

Lipush -

I don't think Israel can afford to let her defences drop, but they can defend in a different way.

For instance, future Palestinian ports, airports and international borders could allow UN or EU inspectors to run the customs and freight control, to ensure no guns are allowed into Palestine. Israel could observe. This allows Palestinians to feel that they have their own rights and freedoms, but also defnd Israel from an influx of weapons.

Also, Israel's land border with the West Bank could utilise part of the existing partition wall, which could even be extended along the entire border. It's not ideal, but it is a solution both sides could probably live with.

I dunno, that's outta my small league

Right now following our politics, I am left amused. apperently Natanyahu has difficulties creating a normal coalition, because Lapit and Bennett don't want to be in the same government with the bloodsucking Shas party.

My hopes is that he'll have to call for help and then we will have both Bennet and Lapid calling the shots. No more rediculous taxes, no more hilarious decisions when it comes to outside politics.

I have my fingers crossed.

 

[Saigon]

iRosie -

There is no Palestinian "ideology". There is no Israeli "ideology".

The reason the Chinese do not rise up and overthrow the Communist regime is because they have full bellies, new refridgerators and cars. They have hope. This is what the Palestinians do not have.

All racial hatred is like your own - driven by frustration, prejudice and ignorance. In the case of the Palestinians, much of that frustration is understandable, though the prejudice and ignorance perhaps less so.

Easing poverty will help, though it would need to be accompanied by greater freedoms, a sense of political enfranchisement and renewed hope. Education will also be needed. Even then, it will take many years before the hatred is really left in the past.

 

[irosie91]

BULLSHIT.....Your attempt at trying to excuse the Criminals Roudy and Rosie after over 8,000.....of which there were 1500 children and infants, Palestinians have been Slaughtered by Israel/Jews since 1948....WHICH THEY REJOICE AT,AND HOPE CONTINUES.

Shame you don't have the SAME SYMPATHY FOR THE PALESTINIANS.

You are just another FCUKARD like the rest........Take your "TEND" out of your and shove into your "EXCUSE" of a MOUTH.

I would bet their stories of repression are COMPLETE BULLSHIT.

Go away from this place,your thoughts have been noted and now reside in the nearest GARBAGE BIN.

Thanks but NO THANKS.

I am in a kind mood today Annika,that's why I have been gentle with you,for you know not what you say.

I am amazed LIQ I am not all that fond of DEATH NUMBERS-----but you are bringing
up a number----8000 since 1948---- which pales to NOTHING in the face of the DOZENS OF MILLIONS of non muslims ---murdered BY MUSLIMS----INTER RELIGION
WARS since 1948 I am---of course---leaving out the intra muslim sectarian
blood letting----just the "LETS KILL THE KAFFIRIN CAMPAIGNS---since 1948

Over 1400 years the numbers rise to HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS-----

try to maintain some perspective. No killing would be best---but the fact is
that Israel faces a KILLING MACHINE that has been at it for 1400 years
and COUNTING------right now that machine is picking up momentum
across the world

a bit of an aside. If you were not a bit alerted when Achmadinejad
DECLARED in the UN "ISLAM IS THE RELIGION FOR ALL THE WORLD"

then you are stupid.

I vividly remember Kruschev announcing 'WE WILL BURY YOU---YOUR
GRANDCHILDREN WILL GROW UP UNDER COMMUNISM"

as the forerunner to genocides in the tens of milions by communist
movements across asia 8000? is that number real?
in 64 years---averaging a few hundred per year?

not nice but certainly not startling like the
BIAFRAN GENOCIDE OF THE 1970s

sit tight----I believe things are going to get a lot worse

YOU SAID IT ALL WITH "IT PALES INTO NOTHING"......well from now I have drawn a line in the Sand and will Never Dialogue with You Again.

hilarious LIQ is playing "HOLIER THAN THOU.....

I am reminded of a story I heard from a concentration camp,
A nazi official described as personally impeccable in dress and
grooming----was examining the doings of the camp---
exterminations --etc----- in due course a guard grabbed a hidden
child by the ankles and slammed its head against a stone will---the
friable child's brain shattered and a bit splashed on the impeccable
jacket of the nazi official who was rendered INDIGNANT over
his sullied jacket and walked away FUMING

 

[Lipush]

Myths and facts about Jerusalem and Temple Mount

1) The Islamic claim to the Temple Mount is very recent - Jerusalem's role as "The Third Holiest Site in Islam" in mainstream Islamic writings does not precede the 1930s. It was created by the grand mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini.

2) The Islamic claim to Jerusalem is false - There were no mosques in Jerusalem in 632 c.e. at the death of Muhammad... Jerusalem was [then] a Christian-occupied city. The muslim "claim" to Jerusalem is allegedly based on what is written in the koran, which although does not mention Jerusalem even once, nevertheless talks of the "furthest mosque" (in Sura 17:1) Is there any foundation to the muslim argument that this "furthest mosque" (al-masujidi al-aqsa) refers to what is today called the Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem? The answer is, NO!

3) The present Arabic name of Jerusalem is "Al-Quds"... but "Al-Quds" is an abbreviation for "The Jewish Temple"!
The Arabic name for Jerusalem is "Al-QuDS" (The Holy), which is abbreviation for another Arabic name used for Jerusalem until the last century, "Bayt al-MaQDeS" (The Holy House), since the 10th century c.e. The name "Bayt al-MaQDeS" is a translation of the Hebrew "Beyt ha-MiKDaSH", which means "House of Holiness", "Temple". But Islam has no Temple, only the Jews did. Thus the Arabic name for Jerusalem makes no reference to Muhammad's alleged trip to Heaven, but rather refers to the Jewish Temple!
In fact, it can be seen that significant Islamic interest in the Temple Mount does not precede the Six-Day War in 1967.

Jerusalem. like the rest of Palestine, belongs to the descendants of the original settlers, as everywhere. In Palestine these were mainly th peoplee living there before the nazi colonisation started under the British. The Romans, as everyone knows, were not zionists and didn't go in for ethnic cleansing. The descendants of those who built the Temple are now Muslim or Christian - it happened throughout the Middle East, obviously. Fight racist colonialism NOW!

Those who ignore the long Jewish history and connection to Jerusalem are ignoring more than 60% of the whole base to the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

No Jew will ever give up the right to Jerusalem, Jerusalem is our heart, mind, and soul. those who claim Jerusalem to belong only to the Palestinians are liars, hypocrits, and souless people.