National Gun Registry

[rightwinger]

And what happens if the person you sold your gun to becomes a criminal after you sold it to him/her?

If you sell your gun to someone who has a legal permit, you register the sale and you are off the hook

From that point on, he can't hold a permit

What permit? So now it's "the Right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed unless you don't have a permit?" Got it.

A permit does not infringe your rights

In fact, it can show that you have been trained and attend militia practice regularly

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Legally that information must be erased after you pass the background check. So no they do not know what guns we own.

Wrong, it is not erased. they have the serial numbers of all of your guns if you bought them legally and recently.

If I gave you the serial number of one of my guns, could you tell me what kind of gun it is?

I might not be able too, but that does not mean it cannot be done. The manufacturer certainly could, for example, and, I am sure, the government knows what the different designations used by manufacturers mean also.

 

[rightwinger]

Does that mean that if, for example, I steal your car, and then rob a bank, the bank should be able to get its money from you?

Cars are registered. Drivers are licensed

I am willing to do both for guns.......why aren't you?

Cars are registered? All of them? and no one is driving without a license?

Seriously?

By the way, if you really want to make guns like cars, let's go for it. No background checks, no waiting periods, and a license issued to anyone who is over 18 works for me.

I'm game.

Show that you are qualified to own a gun, trained. You can get a license. Break the law, you lose your license

Just like a car

 

[tjvh]

Cars are registered. Drivers are licensed

I am willing to do both for guns.......why aren't you?

Cars are registered? All of them? and no one is driving without a license?

Seriously?

By the way, if you really want to make guns like cars, let's go for it. No background checks, no waiting periods, and a license issued to anyone who is over 18 works for me.

I'm game.

Show that you are qualified to own a gun, trained. You can get a license. Break the law, you lose your license

Just like a car

The 2A mentions nothing about requiring people who want to own guns to show you anything.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

[

A permit does not infringe your rights

A permit is unconstitutional under the Ninth Amendment.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

A process to obtain a permit is the ability to deny.

 

[rightwinger]

Cars are registered? All of them? and no one is driving without a license?

Seriously?

By the way, if you really want to make guns like cars, let's go for it. No background checks, no waiting periods, and a license issued to anyone who is over 18 works for me.

I'm game.

Show that you are qualified to own a gun, trained. You can get a license. Break the law, you lose your license

Just like a car

The 2A mentions nothing about requiring people who want to own guns to show you anything.

It mentions a well regulated militia

How can we regulate you if you don't have a permit?

 

[rightwinger]

[

A permit does not infringe your rights

A permit is unconstitutional under the Ninth Amendment.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

A process to obtain a permit is the ability to deny.

We have thousands of permits in our society. All comply with the ninth amendment

 

[The2ndAmendment]

It mentions a well regulated militia

How can we regulate you if you don't have a permit?

You've already had this question answered many times, yet you ignore the answer and spew this lying bullshit everywhere you can. You're a hatchetman. You lie about the definition of those words when they were written.

For everyone else, here is what that phrase means:

Well Regulated

The Random House College Dictionary (1980) gives four definitions for the word "regulate," which were all in use during the Colonial period and one more definition dating from 1690 (Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd Edition, 1989). They are:

1) To control or direct by a rule, principle, method, etc.

2) To adjust to some standard or requirement as for amount, degree, etc.

3) To adjust so as to ensure accuracy of operation.

4) To put in good order.

[obsolete sense]

b. Of troops: Properly disciplined. Obs. rare-1.

1690 Lond. Gaz. No. 2568/3 We hear likewise that the French are in a great Allarm in Dauphine and Bresse, not having at present 1500 Men of regulated Troops on that side.

We can begin to deduce what well-regulated meant from Alexander Hamilton's words in Federalist Paper No. 29:

The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, nor a week nor even a month, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry and of the other classes of the citizens to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people and a serious public inconvenience and loss.
--- The Federalist Papers, No. 29.

Hamilton indicates a well-regulated militia is a state of preparedness obtained after rigorous and persistent training. Note the use of 'disciplining' which indicates discipline could be synonymous with well-trained.

This quote from the Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774-1789 also conveys the meaning of well regulated:

Resolved , That this appointment be conferred on experienced and vigilant general officers, who are acquainted with whatever relates to the general economy, manoeuvres and discipline of a well regulated army.
--- Saturday, December 13, 1777.

In the passage that follows, do you think the U.S. government was concerned because the Creek Indians' tribal regulations were superior to those of the Wabash or was it because they represented a better trained and disciplined fighting force?

That the strength of the Wabash Indians who were principally the object of the resolve of the 21st of July 1787, and the strength of the Creek Indians is very different. That the said Creeks are not only greatly superior in numbers but are more united, better regulated, and headed by a man whose talents appear to have fixed him in their confidence. That from the view of the object your Secretary has been able to take he conceives that the only effectual mode of acting against the said Creeks in case they should persist in their hostilities would be by making an invasion of their country with a powerful body of well regulated troops always ready to combat and able to defeat any combination of force the said Creeks could oppose and to destroy their towns and provisions.
--- Saturday, December 13, 1777.

I am unacquainted with the extent of your works, and consequently ignorant of the number or men necessary to man them. If your present numbers should be insufficient for that purpose, I would then by all means advise your making up the deficiency out of the best regulated militia that can be got.
--- George Washington (The Writings of George Washington, pp. 503-4, (G.P. Putnam & Sons, pub.)(1889))

The above quote is clearly not a request for a militia with the best set of regulations. (For brevity the entire passage is not shown and this quote should not be construed to imply Washington favored militias, in fact he thought little of them, as the full passage indicates.)

But Dr Sir I am Afraid it would blunt the keen edge they have at present which might be keept sharp for the Shawnese &c: I am convinced it would be Attended by considerable desertions. And perhaps raise a Spirit of Discontent not easily Queld amongst the best regulated troops, but much more so amongst men unused to the Yoak of Military Discipline.
--- Letter from Colonel William Fleming to Col. Adam Stephen, Oct 8, 1774, pp. 237-8. (Documentary History of Dunmore's War, 1774, Wisconsin historical society, pub. (1905))

And finally, a late-17th century comparison between the behavior of a large collection of seahorses and well-regulated soldiers:

One of the Seamen that had formerly made a Greenland Voyage for Whale-Fishing, told us that in that country he had seen very great Troops of those Sea-Horses ranging upon Land, sometimes three or four hundred in a Troop: Their great desire, he says, is to roost themselves on Land in the Warm Sun; and Whilst they sleep, they apppoint one to stand Centinel, and watch a certain time; and when that time's expir'd, another takes his place of Watching, and the first Centinel goes to sleep, &c. observing the strict Discipline, as a Body of Well-regulated Troops
--- (Letters written from New-England, A. D. 1686. P. 47, John Dutton (1867))

The quoted passages support the idea that a well-regulated militia was synonymous with one that was thoroughly trained and disciplined, and as a result, well-functioning. That description fits most closely with the "to put in good order" definition supplied by the Random House dictionary. The Oxford dictionary's definition also appears to fit if one considers discipline in a military context to include or imply well-trained.

What about the Amendment's text itself? Considering the adjective "well" and the context of the militia clause, which is more likely to ensure the security of a free state, a militia governed by numerous laws (or the proper amount of regulation [depending on the meaning of "well"] ) or a well-disciplined and trained militia? This brief textual analysis also suggests "to put in good order" is the correct interpretation of well regulated, signifying a well disciplined, trained, and functioning militia.

And finally, when regulated is used as an adjective, its meaning varies depending on the noun its modifying and of course the context. For example: well regulated liberty (properly controlled), regulated rifle (adjusted for accuracy), and regulated commerce (governed by regulations) all express a different meaning for regulated. This is by no means unusual, just as the word, bear, conveys a different meaning depending on the word it modifies: bearing arms, bearing fruit, or bearing gifts.

The first 20 seconds of this video is for right winger, the "hatchetman."

 

[legaleagle_45]

when you buy a gun legally, the dealer inputs a form with your name, SS#, etc. That data is recorded along with the serial number of the gun. The govt already knows what guns you and I have if we bought them recently and legally.

You are confusing a NICS check with form 4473. The NICS background check involves your name and other identifying info, but does not identify the particular weapon. Following a NICS check, the government knows you want to buy a gun, but does not know what gun it is. This info must be destroyed within 24 hours if it is a clean appoval to sell. The form 4473 does contain info on the gun and serial number and the purchasers identification info together with the NICS authorization #, but that form is retained by the dealer and not supplied to ATF. Of course ATF can check on the dealer and see the 4473but this does not even approach registration. When a gun is recovered ATF can trace the firearm from the original mfg to the retail outlet. Then it must send out agents to check form 4473's to determine who bout the gun from the store. That is about as far as the feds can go. Since the average time to crime for a recovered "criminal gun" is more than 10 years, this does not do too much good.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

How can we confiscate your guns if we don't make you register them first

Try to keep up with the program. We can't populate the FEMA Death camps if all you people are armed

useful idiots aren't taken too the death camps, YOU wanted even get a box, they'll place you in a shallow unmarked grave.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

[

A permit does not infringe your rights

A permit is unconstitutional under the Ninth Amendment.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

A process to obtain a permit is the ability to deny.

We have thousands of permits in our society. All comply with the ninth amendment

Yes, since most don't infringe on our rights, they are in compliance with the Ninth Amendment. That doesn't mean every permit is.

It's like saying every parallelogram is a square.

 

[rightwinger]

It mentions a well regulated militia

How can we regulate you if you don't have a permit?

You've already had this question answered many times, yet you ignore the answer and spew this lying bullshit everywhere you can. You're a hatchetman. You lie about the definition of those words when they were written.

For everyone else, here is what that phrase means:

Well Regulated

The Random House College Dictionary (1980) gives four definitions for the word "regulate," which were all in use during the Colonial period and one more definition dating from 1690 (Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd Edition, 1989). They are:

1) To control or direct by a rule, principle, method, etc.

2) To adjust to some standard or requirement as for amount, degree, etc.

3) To adjust so as to ensure accuracy of operation.

4) To put in good order.

[obsolete sense]

b. Of troops: Properly disciplined. Obs. rare-1.

1690 Lond. Gaz. No. 2568/3 We hear likewise that the French are in a great Allarm in Dauphine and Bresse, not having at present 1500 Men of regulated Troops on that side.

We can begin to deduce what well-regulated meant from Alexander Hamilton's words in Federalist Paper No. 29:

The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, nor a week nor even a month, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry and of the other classes of the citizens to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people and a serious public inconvenience and loss.
--- The Federalist Papers, No. 29.

Hamilton indicates a well-regulated militia is a state of preparedness obtained after rigorous and persistent training. Note the use of 'disciplining' which indicates discipline could be synonymous with well-trained.

This quote from the Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774-1789 also conveys the meaning of well regulated:

Resolved , That this appointment be conferred on experienced and vigilant general officers, who are acquainted with whatever relates to the general economy, manoeuvres and discipline of a well regulated army.
--- Saturday, December 13, 1777.

In the passage that follows, do you think the U.S. government was concerned because the Creek Indians' tribal regulations were superior to those of the Wabash or was it because they represented a better trained and disciplined fighting force?

That the strength of the Wabash Indians who were principally the object of the resolve of the 21st of July 1787, and the strength of the Creek Indians is very different. That the said Creeks are not only greatly superior in numbers but are more united, better regulated, and headed by a man whose talents appear to have fixed him in their confidence. That from the view of the object your Secretary has been able to take he conceives that the only effectual mode of acting against the said Creeks in case they should persist in their hostilities would be by making an invasion of their country with a powerful body of well regulated troops always ready to combat and able to defeat any combination of force the said Creeks could oppose and to destroy their towns and provisions.
--- Saturday, December 13, 1777.

I am unacquainted with the extent of your works, and consequently ignorant of the number or men necessary to man them. If your present numbers should be insufficient for that purpose, I would then by all means advise your making up the deficiency out of the best regulated militia that can be got.
--- George Washington (The Writings of George Washington, pp. 503-4, (G.P. Putnam & Sons, pub.)(1889))

The above quote is clearly not a request for a militia with the best set of regulations. (For brevity the entire passage is not shown and this quote should not be construed to imply Washington favored militias, in fact he thought little of them, as the full passage indicates.)

But Dr Sir I am Afraid it would blunt the keen edge they have at present which might be keept sharp for the Shawnese &c: I am convinced it would be Attended by considerable desertions. And perhaps raise a Spirit of Discontent not easily Queld amongst the best regulated troops, but much more so amongst men unused to the Yoak of Military Discipline.
--- Letter from Colonel William Fleming to Col. Adam Stephen, Oct 8, 1774, pp. 237-8. (Documentary History of Dunmore's War, 1774, Wisconsin historical society, pub. (1905))

And finally, a late-17th century comparison between the behavior of a large collection of seahorses and well-regulated soldiers:

One of the Seamen that had formerly made a Greenland Voyage for Whale-Fishing, told us that in that country he had seen very great Troops of those Sea-Horses ranging upon Land, sometimes three or four hundred in a Troop: Their great desire, he says, is to roost themselves on Land in the Warm Sun; and Whilst they sleep, they apppoint one to stand Centinel, and watch a certain time; and when that time's expir'd, another takes his place of Watching, and the first Centinel goes to sleep, &c. observing the strict Discipline, as a Body of Well-regulated Troops
--- (Letters written from New-England, A. D. 1686. P. 47, John Dutton (1867))

The quoted passages support the idea that a well-regulated militia was synonymous with one that was thoroughly trained and disciplined, and as a result, well-functioning. That description fits most closely with the "to put in good order" definition supplied by the Random House dictionary. The Oxford dictionary's definition also appears to fit if one considers discipline in a military context to include or imply well-trained.

What about the Amendment's text itself? Considering the adjective "well" and the context of the militia clause, which is more likely to ensure the security of a free state, a militia governed by numerous laws (or the proper amount of regulation [depending on the meaning of "well"] ) or a well-disciplined and trained militia? This brief textual analysis also suggests "to put in good order" is the correct interpretation of well regulated, signifying a well disciplined, trained, and functioning militia.

And finally, when regulated is used as an adjective, its meaning varies depending on the noun its modifying and of course the context. For example: well regulated liberty (properly controlled), regulated rifle (adjusted for accuracy), and regulated commerce (governed by regulations) all express a different meaning for regulated. This is by no means unusual, just as the word, bear, conveys a different meaning depending on the word it modifies: bearing arms, bearing fruit, or bearing gifts.

The first 20 seconds of this video is for right winger, the "hatchetman."

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xcJT7F_BXo]2013 Epic DUBSTEP REMIX Alex Jones vs Piers Morgan [HD720p] Edit by Alex Totterdell - YouTube[/ame]

Nice cut and paste....take you long?...but a FAIL

By any definition, well regulated means just that

As a gun owner and member of the local militia we need to know who you are and what guns you own don't we? How else can you defend your country?

How can we call out our militia if we don't know who you are?

Registering guns and issuing permits to those who are trained and attend militia practice is part of a "well regulated militia"

 

[The2ndAmendment]

How can we call out our militia if we don't know who you are?

We know who the militia is:

EVERY ABLE BODIED MALE BETWEEN 18 and 45 under US CODE.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/311

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

You are disqualified from this argument thus.

I made a thread announcing your disqualification hatchetman.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-f...winger-gets-repeatably-owned.html#post7008378

 

[legaleagle_45]

It mentions a well regulated militia

How can we regulate you if you don't have a permit?

A well regulated militia is a military unit composed of civilians which has been properly trained so that it is an effective fighting force. More generally, "well regulated" is an adjective which describes something which is properly functioning. The term is derived from the manner of adjusting the length of an arm on a pendulem clock so that it kept time properly. This action was termed "regulating" and when the clock kept time properly it was termed "well regulated". The adjective quickly spread to describe anything that was functioning properly and is still in use today to describe a well regulated digestive system and well regulated bowel movements. Some pendulem clocks to this day are called "Regulators"

A single person is not a militia and permits have nothing to do with the adjective "well regulated" unless you can explain the type of permit you receive from ex lax tablets so that you will have a well regulated bowel movement... is it a potty pas or sumpin?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Cars are registered. Drivers are licensed

I am willing to do both for guns.......why aren't you?

Cars are registered? All of them? and no one is driving without a license?

Seriously?

By the way, if you really want to make guns like cars, let's go for it. No background checks, no waiting periods, and a license issued to anyone who is over 18 works for me.

I'm game.

Show that you are qualified to own a gun, trained. You can get a license. Break the law, you lose your license

Just like a car

That was funny.

A fifty question test does not make you qualified to drive.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I'm game.

Show that you are qualified to own a gun, trained. You can get a license. Break the law, you lose your license

Just like a car

The 2A mentions nothing about requiring people who want to own guns to show you anything.

It mentions a well regulated militia

How can we regulate you if you don't have a permit?

I didn't have a permit when the Navy handed me a .45 and told me to shoot anyone who tried to get on the ship. In fact, I hadn't even fired it, and never once had to do so, yet I had carried it every 4 days.

 

[rightwinger]

How can we call out our militia if we don't know who you are?

We know who the militia is:

EVERY ABLE BODIED MALE BETWEEN 18 and 45 under US CODE.

10 USC § 311 - Militia: composition and classes | Title 10 - Armed Forces | U.S. Code | LII / Legal Information Institute

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

You are disqualified from this argument thus.

Great point

And I encourage EVERY gun owner to actively defend their country when required. But how can we call you to defend our country if we don't know who you are and what guns you have?

As an American and faithful defender of the second amendment it is your duty to train, register yourself and the weapons you own

America depends on it!

 

[M14 Shooter]

But no voter ID.
liberal hypocrisy at its worst.
I would like for one liberal to tell me why they object to proving who they are before voting.
you have to prove identity to register to vote, what is wrong with showing the same ID at the polling place?

Nothing, other than it makes it harder for people to illegally vote for Democrats.

All arguments for gun control must be viewerd thru a filter -- it is impossible for the state to have a monopoly on force so long at the citizenry remains armed.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I very definitely do not understand why people continue to feed the trolls.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

As an American and faithful defender of the second amendment it is your duty to train, register yourself and the weapons you own

America depends on it!

I agree, so long as there is a law demanding that every able bodied male between 17 and 45 must own a modern standard issue firearm, and will be provided with one for free if he cannot afford it, and will also be provided with a free "boot-camp-lite" 2 week training session.