No historical Jesus

[guno]

The Gospels are the sole source of information about a historical Jesus. Everything that we know about Jesus and Christianity depends on that source. Confucius 6th century BC Chinese sage and founder of Confucianism from the Analects “love thy neighbor as thyself. Do nothing to thy neighbor, which thou wouldst not have him do to thee hereafter”. These verses were not original to the gospels. Nobody knows when they were written or who wrote them. The Bible-based religions we now have (Catholic or Protestant) are nothing like the Hebrew religion of the church established at Jerusalem. The practices of this first Jewish church are not practiced by any major religion and they are almost unknown. In its place are doctrines of Christianity, which was begun by Constantine. In Matthew and Mark the Romans crucify Jesus, but in Luke and John it is the Jews who crucify him.

Numbers 23:19 states that God is not a man. God was not born, and God certainly did not die.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were being written in 150 BCE and continued until 70 CE, a period of 220 years. During those years 872 scrolls were written in Hebrew and Aramaic by the peoples of Qumran. The supposed life of Jesus was between 2 BCE and 36 CE (38 years) and the Great Temple of the Jews in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE. These dates are important for understanding the importance of what the Dead Sea Scrolls revealed. After scholars completed the translation work on the Dead Sea Scrolls a very important fact was obvious.

Nowhere in the Dead Sea Scrolls was the name of Jesus mentioned, and Christianity had no support in the translations. The Dead Sea Scrolls challenged the two most fundamental beliefs of Christianity: the uniqueness of Jesus Christ and Christianity as the embodiment of the message of Christ. The scrolls make no mention of Jesus or that the ‘Jesus message’ originated with him.

 

[Mac1958]

Well, this thread will no doubt change many Christian minds...

 

[Compost]

That the Dead Sea Scrolls don't specifically speak of Jesus is not proof that He did not walk the earth. Don't the scrolls speak of a Messiah? The Scrolls back up much of the Old Testament which also prophesied the coming of Jesus, do they not?

Just curious. Are you really looking to discuss this or is this just another of your Christians are crummy people posts?

 

[saveliberty]

You realize that Christianity is a faith based religion right? If everything was completely certified and confirmed, it would be simple indisputable fact that Jesus was the Son of God. Your lack of faith has no bearing on God, Jesus or me.

 

[HaShev]

They will not like what they will find in the scrolls:
Isaiah first of all mentions the Prince of the Congregation-"Michael", as the Davidic Messiah (scroll 4 Q285 Fr. 5 which is written in the Book of Isaiah & In the "Isaiah Commentary" scroll: (IQSb,v 20-29)

War Scroll” (4Q471)
Where in verse XVII, it says, “God will send eternal bliss by the might of the Princely Angel of "the Kingdom of Michael". He will enlighten with joy the children of Israel.

Words of the Archangel Michael scroll 4Q529, 6Q23 YeruShalem will carry his name.

The Coming of Melchizedek (king/messenger of righteousness) (11Q19-20)

Commander of G-d of Israel, 4Q285, Fr.4&5 and fr 10

1QM v, 1-2) States:He (Michael)will not have much room to act as Royal Messiah while battling the Sons of Darkness.
“God himself is a supreme agent of salvation and after him in importance is Michael.”

4QSe (4Q259) the Moshiach's Aaron Lineage,

IIQ13 "Heavenly Prince Melchizedek Scroll" about Michael conducting the atonement day Judgment.
Blessings scroll (1QSb=1Q28b)
V:20 "blessings of the Prince of the Congregation (Michael)
Renew him the covenant of the community so he might establish the kingdom of his people for ever, that he might judge the poor with righteousness & dispense Justice with equity to the oppressed.

4Q285 5&10 Judgment of the Kittim (Romans)

Dead Sea Scrolls:
llQMelch ll,9,13 ,
4Q246 ,
1QS x12-18

 

[Dajjal]

Here are some Roman references to Jesus.

Pliny the Younger
Pliny was the governor of the Roman province of Bithynia, in present-day Turkey. In about 112 AD, he wrote (in Epistles X.96) to the emperor Trajan, asking for advice on how to deal with the Christians in his province, because he was executing so many of them. Pliny wrote:

'They were in the habit of meeting before dawn on a fixed day. They would recite in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a God, and would bind themselves by a solemn oath, not to do any criminal act, but rather that they would not commit any fraud, theft or adultery, nor betray any trust nor refuse to restore a deposit on demand. This done, they would disperse, and then they would meet again later to eat together (but the food was quite ordinary and harmless.)

From the annals of the Roman historian Tacitus. Annal 15:44

15.44.2. But, despite kindly influence, despite the leader's generous handouts, despite appeasing the gods, the scandal did not subside, rather the blaze came to be believed to be an official act. So, in order to quash the rumour, Nero blamed it on, and applied the cruellest punishments to, those sinners, whom ordinary people call Christians, hating them for their shameful behaviour.
15.44.3. The originator of this name, Christ, was sentenced to torture by Procurator Pontius Pilate, during the reign of Tiberius, but although checked for a moment, the deadly cult erupted again, not just in Judaea, the source of its evil, but even in Rome, where all the sins and scandals of the world gather and are glorified.

The following is the text from the works of Josephus that describes Jesus and mentions the crucifixion.
It is considered to be a falsification inserted by the early Christians. Obviously a hand written text could be fixed by scribes at any time in the approximately 1500 years the manuscript existed before printing was invented.
But that is no reason not to give it consideration.

The following text is from Flavius Josephus (c37-100AD)
The Antiquities of the Jews. Book 18.3.3

Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works,- a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principle men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again on the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

 

[Dot Com]

Too bad, so sad Cross Grovelers

guno

 

[Meriweather]

The Gospels are the sole source of information about a historical Jesus. Everything that we know about Jesus and Christianity depends on that source. Confucius 6th century BC Chinese sage and founder of Confucianism from the Analects “love thy neighbor as thyself. Do nothing to thy neighbor, which thou wouldst not have him do to thee hereafter”. These verses were not original to the gospels. Nobody knows when they were written or who wrote them. The Bible-based religions we now have (Catholic or Protestant) are nothing like the Hebrew religion of the church established at Jerusalem. The practices of this first Jewish church are not practiced by any major religion and they are almost unknown. In its place are doctrines of Christianity, which was begun by Constantine. In Matthew and Mark the Romans crucify Jesus, but in Luke and John it is the Jews who crucify him.

Numbers 23:19 states that God is not a man. God was not born, and God certainly did not die.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were being written in 150 BCE and continued until 70 CE, a period of 220 years. During those years 872 scrolls were written in Hebrew and Aramaic by the peoples of Qumran. The supposed life of Jesus was between 2 BCE and 36 CE (38 years) and the Great Temple of the Jews in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE. These dates are important for understanding the importance of what the Dead Sea Scrolls revealed. After scholars completed the translation work on the Dead Sea Scrolls a very important fact was obvious.

Nowhere in the Dead Sea Scrolls was the name of Jesus mentioned, and Christianity had no support in the translations. The Dead Sea Scrolls challenged the two most fundamental beliefs of Christianity: the uniqueness of Jesus Christ and Christianity as the embodiment of the message of Christ. The scrolls make no mention of Jesus or that the ‘Jesus message’ originated with him.

Are you suggesting that anyone who was not named in the Dead Sea Scrolls during first seventy years of the current era did not exist? From what I understand, the Dead Sea Scrolls confirms there were a diversity of Jewish Sects. If the Christian Sect is not named, isn't it more likely that it was among any number of sects that weren't important to the Sect that collected and wrote the Scrolls?

 

[Dajjal]

Jesus existence as a real being is endorsed by the historical fact that Nero put many Christians to death in AD64, which was within living memory of the time of Christ. Since the Christians were ready to die rather than recant their faith it would seem likely that Christ did exist..

 

[Freewill]

The Gospels are the sole source of information about a historical Jesus. Everything that we know about Jesus and Christianity depends on that source. Confucius 6th century BC Chinese sage and founder of Confucianism from the Analects “love thy neighbor as thyself. Do nothing to thy neighbor, which thou wouldst not have him do to thee hereafter”. These verses were not original to the gospels. Nobody knows when they were written or who wrote them. The Bible-based religions we now have (Catholic or Protestant) are nothing like the Hebrew religion of the church established at Jerusalem. The practices of this first Jewish church are not practiced by any major religion and they are almost unknown. In its place are doctrines of Christianity, which was begun by Constantine. In Matthew and Mark the Romans crucify Jesus, but in Luke and John it is the Jews who crucify him.

Numbers 23:19 states that God is not a man. God was not born, and God certainly did not die.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were being written in 150 BCE and continued until 70 CE, a period of 220 years. During those years 872 scrolls were written in Hebrew and Aramaic by the peoples of Qumran. The supposed life of Jesus was between 2 BCE and 36 CE (38 years) and the Great Temple of the Jews in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE. These dates are important for understanding the importance of what the Dead Sea Scrolls revealed. After scholars completed the translation work on the Dead Sea Scrolls a very important fact was obvious.

Nowhere in the Dead Sea Scrolls was the name of Jesus mentioned, and Christianity had no support in the translations. The Dead Sea Scrolls challenged the two most fundamental beliefs of Christianity: the uniqueness of Jesus Christ and Christianity as the embodiment of the message of Christ. The scrolls make no mention of Jesus or that the ‘Jesus message’ originated with him.

The dead sea scrolls didn't give Jesus' phone number either, but is He mentioned? Yes.

Grant R. Jeffrey Ministries

 

[HaShev]

[QUOTE="Compost, post: 12769039, Don't the scrolls speak of a Messiah?[/QUOTE]

Yes all over the scrolls it talks of the roles and many terms used for
king (Melchi) of righteousness (tsadek)
Michael the prince of the congregation (head of hosts-like the popes role for his imposter temple) as the Davidic Messiah head kohanim.
Nowhere does it mention Jesus in any of his names.
There is a problematic reference to those calling someone "son of god" that caused many to be slain.
But the verses are negative for Christians.

 

[Freewill]

Did Jesus Exist? Searching for Evidence Beyond the Bible - Biblical Archaeology Society

 

[the_human_being]

The Gospels are the sole source of information about a historical Jesus. Everything that we know about Jesus and Christianity depends on that source. Confucius 6th century BC Chinese sage and founder of Confucianism from the Analects “love thy neighbor as thyself. Do nothing to thy neighbor, which thou wouldst not have him do to thee hereafter”. These verses were not original to the gospels. Nobody knows when they were written or who wrote them. The Bible-based religions we now have (Catholic or Protestant) are nothing like the Hebrew religion of the church established at Jerusalem. The practices of this first Jewish church are not practiced by any major religion and they are almost unknown. In its place are doctrines of Christianity, which was begun by Constantine. In Matthew and Mark the Romans crucify Jesus, but in Luke and John it is the Jews who crucify him.

Numbers 23:19 states that God is not a man. God was not born, and God certainly did not die.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were being written in 150 BCE and continued until 70 CE, a period of 220 years. During those years 872 scrolls were written in Hebrew and Aramaic by the peoples of Qumran. The supposed life of Jesus was between 2 BCE and 36 CE (38 years) and the Great Temple of the Jews in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE. These dates are important for understanding the importance of what the Dead Sea Scrolls revealed. After scholars completed the translation work on the Dead Sea Scrolls a very important fact was obvious.

Nowhere in the Dead Sea Scrolls was the name of Jesus mentioned, and Christianity had no support in the translations. The Dead Sea Scrolls challenged the two most fundamental beliefs of Christianity: the uniqueness of Jesus Christ and Christianity as the embodiment of the message of Christ. The scrolls make no mention of Jesus or that the ‘Jesus message’ originated with him.

Why should they? The Dead Sea Scrolls predate the birth of Christ. That's simple enough to account for.

 

[the_human_being]

Well, this thread will no doubt change many Christian minds...

Hardly. The Dead Sea Scrolls are the books of which comprise the OT and predate even the manuscripts used in creating the OT. What the Scrolls did was authenticate the original translation of the King James OT.

 

[Boss]

You are using ZERO perspective on this. You are heaping together a bunch of misconceptions, assumptions and lack of knowledge to base your case. I won't go through and pick it all apart because it's not that important to me, I'm not a Christian. I will leave that pleasure to the many Christians out there who will be glad to dismantle your case.

I will say this.. First of all, the message and teachings of Jesus were not popular until long after his crucifixion. So it makes perfect sense the Dead Sea Scrolls wouldn't have mentioned Jesus or this relatively new movement.

In a 2011 review of the state of modern scholarship,Bart Ehrman wrote, "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees".[14]Richard A. Burridge states: "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church's imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more".[15]Robert M. Price does not believe that Jesus existed, but agrees that this perspective runs against the views of the majority of scholars.[16]James D.G. Dunn calls the theories of Jesus' non-existence "a thoroughly dead thesis".[17]Michael Grant (a classicist) wrote in 1977, "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary".[18]Robert E. Van Voorst states that biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of non-existence of Jesus as effectively refuted.[19]
Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[HaShev]

Here are some Roman references to Jesus.

Pliny the Younger
Pliny was the governor of the Roman province of Bithynia, in present-day Turkey. In about 112 AD, he wrote (in Epistles X.96) to the emperor Trajan, asking for advice on how to deal with the Christians in his province, because he was executing so many of them. Pliny wrote:

'They were in the habit of meeting before dawn on a fixed day. They would recite in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a God, and would bind themselves by a solemn oath, not to do any criminal act, but rather that they would not commit any fraud, theft or adultery, nor betray any trust nor refuse to restore a deposit on demand. This done, they would disperse, and then they would meet again later to eat together (but the food was quite ordinary and harmless.)

From the annals of the Roman historian Tacitus. Annal 15:44

15.44.2. But, despite kindly influence, despite the leader's generous handouts, despite appeasing the gods, the scandal did not subside, rather the blaze came to be believed to be an official act. So, in order to quash the rumour, Nero blamed it on, and applied the cruellest punishments to, those sinners, whom ordinary people call Christians, hating them for their shameful behaviour.
15.44.3. The originator of this name, Christ, was sentenced to torture by Procurator Pontius Pilate, during the reign of Tiberius, but although checked for a moment, the deadly cult erupted again, not just in Judaea, the source of its evil, but even in Rome, where all the sins and scandals of the world gather and are glorified.

The following is the text from the works of Josephus that describes Jesus and mentions the crucifixion.
It is considered to be a falsification inserted by the early Christians. Obviously a hand written text could be fixed by scribes at any time in the approximately 1500 years the manuscript existed before printing was invented.
But that is no reason not to give it consideration.

The following text is from Flavius Josephus (c37-100AD)
The Antiquities of the Jews. Book 18.3.3

Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works,- a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principle men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again on the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Ummm notice you quoted reference to Christ not to Jesus. Jesus name was not Christ, the word meaning anointed can refer to groups of Rabbis or any teacher as there were many Christs including Krishna called Christos.
Joesphus was a Jew who would not use words that only a Christian would use.
Notice Josephus accts are out of sync as if placed, it's because earlier copies had no mention of Jesus, it's not until the time of Euebius the great forger/liar where Jesus appears in later text.

Lastly Pilate is an AD character, the Galilean Christ died in 6Bc thus the stories of Herod (died 4bc) and Lysannias (35bc) in the Christs time period. The AD era christ where the apostles were martyrs comes from Theudas by the Jordan. Neither the Galilean nor Jordan Christs are the 100bc christ Yeshu son of the Harlot Mary who was stoned and hanged at passover (the one Rome favored).
Jesus isn't a singular figure, he's an image through compiling many thus given a new name and birthdate.
He's basically a mask for Baal as a new name for the exact same stories, but one to get Jews to submit to Rome through.

 

[HaShev]

You are using ZERO perspective on this. You are heaping together a bunch of misconceptions, assumptions and lack of knowledge to base your case. I won't go through and pick it all apart because it's not that important to me, I'm not a Christian. I will leave that pleasure to the many Christians out there who will be glad to dismantle your case.

I will say this.. First of all, the message and teachings of Jesus were not popular until long after his crucifixion. So it makes perfect sense the Dead Sea Scrolls wouldn't have mentioned Jesus or this relatively new movement.

In a 2011 review of the state of modern scholarship,Bart Ehrman wrote, "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees".[14]Richard A. Burridge states: "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church's imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more".[15]Robert M. Price does not believe that Jesus existed, but agrees that this perspective runs against the views of the majority of scholars.[16]James D.G. Dunn calls the theories of Jesus' non-existence "a thoroughly dead thesis".[17]Michael Grant (a classicist) wrote in 1977, "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary".[18]Robert E. Van Voorst states that biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of non-existence of Jesus as effectively refuted.[19]
Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not true,
1-they claimed him popular in the NT especially in Tarsus.
2-the NT says he was slew (stoned) and hanged
which is what occured to Yeshu son of Mary in around 88bc.
The crucified christs were Yehuda of Galilee in 6bc
and Theudas in 45Ad.
Jesus is based on many figures, mythologies, plagiarized texts and ancient tablets even the church finally admited he was a vision of one to come not an actual historical figure. Rome was creating the one world religion's face and image to speak and be authority behind. A mask for it's Baal worship.

 

[the_human_being]

Poor Guno. He though he had found the Unholy Grail. His own ignorance led him to believe he had discovered a means by which he could disprove the existence of Jesus himself and afford him the opportunity to beat the Christian over the head. Pathetic to say the least.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I don't doubt that Jesus of Nazareth lived a Monkey life and died on a Roman cross.

It's the stories written 50 odd years after his death declaring him to be God in flesh that I find difficult to swallow.

If A Tomb Was Found...? | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

 

[the_human_being]

I don't doubt that Jesus of Nazareth lived a Monkey life and died on a Roman cross.

It's the stories written 50 odd years after his death declaring him to be God in flesh that I find difficult to swallow.

If A Tomb Was Found...? | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Sounds like a personal problem to me. There are many who don't share that particular problem with you. Work it out.