No living President, Secretary of State or FED Chairman endorse Trump

[kaz]

What a load of crap. If they don't want to deal with us, they won't. They can't make us make a deal. You're just rationalizing and repeating the mantra that somehow our government can best decide when we should be allowed to make deals. It's anti-capitalist and anti-liberty.

We (American business) are the best in the world. Fuck off and leave us alone

I'm not sure how that addresses my points.


Free Internal Trade is pretty big area to play around in. We can have all the competition and innovation you want right here.


As an American businessman you don't have a right to deal with nations that are looking to fuck US.


Chine might be willing to sell you a mountain of steel below cost. You would make a ton of money if you resold it in the American Market.

But it would fuck America steel makers.


WHy should we, as America let you and the Chinese benefit at the expense of the nation as a whole?


Why do you want to?

Still looking for your explanation how you know that you know more about economics than economists.

If you want to discuss this, I'm up for that. I'm an MBA in finance (a branch of economics) and spent my career in management and management consulting for international businesses and you're telling me that the field of economics is wrong and everything I experienced the last 25 years in business is wrong.

In March, I finished 9 months in the Netherlands working for the Dutch subsidiary of a US company. Not my first overseas project. I was always working for US companies. I've also offshored a lot of IT support to India.

You're not asking questions, you don't want to understand. It's just dull when you tell me my education and experience are wrong and you can't explain how you know that

I've seen that the national consensus of economists over the last 40 years have failed to deliver it's promised results.


I remember what was supposed to happen.

I can see that it did not.


In that, I know more than the economists who are ignoring reality and still insisting that the theory is sound.


What "question" do you think I need to ask?

Yes, obviously of lawyers tell you that, it must be true. All praise the great and all knowing lawyers!

No, I remember what was supposed to happen thanks to Free Trade.

It did not happen.

What "question" do you think that I need to ask?

Single cause fallacy

 

[Correll]

Your trust that the Trade that we engage in with others, that they call Free Trade, but that we ALWAYS lose, is actually Free Trade, is staggeringly naive.

So American businesses make deals where we lose without the all wise direction of politicians and bureaucrats to take us by the hand and tell us when a deal's in our interest. That's very helpful. Clearly lawyers and bureaucrats know better than we do how to conduct business. You're full of shit

NOt at all. I'm sure that you personally benefit.

BUt America as a whole gets fucked.


Doesn't it seem odd to you that if the Trade is supposedly Free, and Lord Knows America has a lot on the Ball, that we always lose?


To me, I strongly suspect hidden Fuck Yous in the supposedly Free and Fair and Open rules and regulations.

You're full of shit and parroting lawyers and ignoring economists ... in economics.

Offshoring work and reducing costs is good for our economy. I know you believe lawyers are Gods who know all and Vulcans who cannot lie, but the fact is that lower costs overall help our economy by lowering costs for consumers making them richer and making our companies more cost competitive providing other jobs.

You go ahead and parrot the lawyers who you worship that they know more about economics than economists do. But know this. They are full of shit. And since you believe their crap, so are you.

Here's the 411, they are lying to you for power. And it's working

You did not answer my question.

Is it not odd to you, that America always loses? With bigger and bigger trade deficits every year?

Loaded question fallacy.

It's also begging the question and a big steaming pile of shit.

But lawyers told you, it must be so!

So do you think lawyers are immortal?

What is the "load"?

Are you denying that we are losing when it comes to trade?

Because as a middle class person who has lived in the Rust Belt his whole life, it certainly feels like losing.


Hey, did you see this?


Life Expectancy for White Americans Declines



"Life expectancy fell for the U.S. white population in 2014 and remained flat for all population groups combined, according to data released Wednesday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, showing how increases in death rates from suicides, drug overdoses and related causes are threatening an important measure of health and prosperity."


"Such reversals, even small ones, are unusual for wealthy nations, where people tend to live longer with each successive generation, as health care and public safety improve and the standard of living rises.

In the U.S., life expectancy overall has been stagnant at 78.8 years since 2012, remaining below that of several European countries, Canada, Australia and Japan. The stagnation follows decades of steady gains in the U.S., from 69.7 years overall in 1960 to 76.8 years in 2000 and 78.7 years in 2010.

“It’s a wake-up call,” said Ali Mokdad, a professor of global health at the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington, which has analyzed U.S. county mortality data.

Still, there were improvements for some groups: African-American men gained 0.4 year of life expectancy in 2014, to 72.2 years.

There have been signs for years that health and socioeconomic problems might be chipping away at improvements in longevity for parts of the U.S. population. In 2008, the IHME reported that life expectancy had stagnated or declined for about 4% of men and 19% of women in the U.S. in the 1980s and 1990s. "






Like I said, feels like losing.

 

[kaz]

So American businesses make deals where we lose without the all wise direction of politicians and bureaucrats to take us by the hand and tell us when a deal's in our interest. That's very helpful. Clearly lawyers and bureaucrats know better than we do how to conduct business. You're full of shit

NOt at all. I'm sure that you personally benefit.

BUt America as a whole gets fucked.


Doesn't it seem odd to you that if the Trade is supposedly Free, and Lord Knows America has a lot on the Ball, that we always lose?


To me, I strongly suspect hidden Fuck Yous in the supposedly Free and Fair and Open rules and regulations.

You're full of shit and parroting lawyers and ignoring economists ... in economics.

Offshoring work and reducing costs is good for our economy. I know you believe lawyers are Gods who know all and Vulcans who cannot lie, but the fact is that lower costs overall help our economy by lowering costs for consumers making them richer and making our companies more cost competitive providing other jobs.

You go ahead and parrot the lawyers who you worship that they know more about economics than economists do. But know this. They are full of shit. And since you believe their crap, so are you.

Here's the 411, they are lying to you for power. And it's working

You did not answer my question.

Is it not odd to you, that America always loses? With bigger and bigger trade deficits every year?

Loaded question fallacy.

It's also begging the question and a big steaming pile of shit.

But lawyers told you, it must be so!

So do you think lawyers are immortal?

What is the "load"?

Are you denying that we are losing when it comes to trade?

Because as a middle class person who has lived in the Rust Belt his whole life, it certainly feels like losing.


Hey, did you see this?


Life Expectancy for White Americans Declines



"Life expectancy fell for the U.S. white population in 2014 and remained flat for all population groups combined, according to data released Wednesday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, showing how increases in death rates from suicides, drug overdoses and related causes are threatening an important measure of health and prosperity."


"Such reversals, even small ones, are unusual for wealthy nations, where people tend to live longer with each successive generation, as health care and public safety improve and the standard of living rises.

In the U.S., life expectancy overall has been stagnant at 78.8 years since 2012, remaining below that of several European countries, Canada, Australia and Japan. The stagnation follows decades of steady gains in the U.S., from 69.7 years overall in 1960 to 76.8 years in 2000 and 78.7 years in 2010.

“It’s a wake-up call,” said Ali Mokdad, a professor of global health at the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington, which has analyzed U.S. county mortality data.

Still, there were improvements for some groups: African-American men gained 0.4 year of life expectancy in 2014, to 72.2 years.

There have been signs for years that health and socioeconomic problems might be chipping away at improvements in longevity for parts of the U.S. population. In 2008, the IHME reported that life expectancy had stagnated or declined for about 4% of men and 19% of women in the U.S. in the 1980s and 1990s. "






Like I said, feels like losing.

Obviously I'm denying we're losing at trade, dumb ass. Did you just pick that up?

And now, lawyers are going to extend our lives because they not only know more about economics than economists but they know the field of economics is wrong? And just fortunately for them, this truth gives them massively more power?

If you think about it, lawyers also gave us roads, doctors and invented pizza. They are the reason our mothers love us, the sun warms the earth and we have snow mobiles.

Ah, the wonderful lawyer, I see why you worship them so

 

[Correll]

I'm not sure how that addresses my points.


Free Internal Trade is pretty big area to play around in. We can have all the competition and innovation you want right here.


As an American businessman you don't have a right to deal with nations that are looking to fuck US.


Chine might be willing to sell you a mountain of steel below cost. You would make a ton of money if you resold it in the American Market.

But it would fuck America steel makers.


WHy should we, as America let you and the Chinese benefit at the expense of the nation as a whole?


Why do you want to?

Still looking for your explanation how you know that you know more about economics than economists.

If you want to discuss this, I'm up for that. I'm an MBA in finance (a branch of economics) and spent my career in management and management consulting for international businesses and you're telling me that the field of economics is wrong and everything I experienced the last 25 years in business is wrong.

In March, I finished 9 months in the Netherlands working for the Dutch subsidiary of a US company. Not my first overseas project. I was always working for US companies. I've also offshored a lot of IT support to India.

You're not asking questions, you don't want to understand. It's just dull when you tell me my education and experience are wrong and you can't explain how you know that

I've seen that the national consensus of economists over the last 40 years have failed to deliver it's promised results.


I remember what was supposed to happen.

I can see that it did not.


In that, I know more than the economists who are ignoring reality and still insisting that the theory is sound.


What "question" do you think I need to ask?

Yes, obviously of lawyers tell you that, it must be true. All praise the great and all knowing lawyers!

No, I remember what was supposed to happen thanks to Free Trade.

It did not happen.

What "question" do you think that I need to ask?

Single cause fallacy

So, what was the "Real" cause(s) then?


THat lead US to lose, every single time. Despite the fact that so many of our trading partners and trading relationships are so different.

 

[Dana7360]

i'm never going to say that this president was a great president. but we've had far worse and congress didn't obstruct them from the day they were inaugurated. i'm not sure how you lead under those circumstances.

First two years of his presidency he had a congress that was controlled by his party, and he still couldn't get things done.

The ironic thing is, for years Democrats said, "If Republicans were more like John McCain, we could actually support them", and the minute the GOP nominated the actual John McCain, Democrats rejected him for the pinup boy. So now you act all surprised when the GOP goes nuts and nominates a Nazi who promises to crack some heads?

democrats need to start building their back bench. they need to put democrats in statehouse jobs, and local jobs and start developing the depth that the GOP has. what republicans can't have is all three branches of government. clearly they can't even be trusted with two. it is irksome when democrats get one million more votes in House races than the GOP and the GOP still usurps the House because of gerrymandering. that too needs to be changed and that will come from the courts at some point.

depth didn't help the GOP this time. They had lots of qualified candidates and they nominated Trump anyway. Meanwhile, the Democrats came way too close to nominating Comrade Bernie.

What should happen is both parties need to realize, "Hey, the people elected us to get some work done, let's get some work done". If Trump is winning, it's because he's created the illusion of someone who can get shit done.

Have no illusions... if Hillary wins, she's a one-term president who will have a 30% approval rating. And that assumes that we don't have a recession, which we probably will. The democrats will get slaughtered in the 2018 midterms and the GOP will be in a great position in 2020. Heck, I might even vote for them if they nominate someone who isn't batshit crazy.

I'm so sorry. You're mistaken.

The House was controlled by democrats those first two years.

The senate wasn't. The republicans refused to relinquish control by use of the filibuster.

If you remember in 2008, the democrats technically had those 60 seats for a short time. The problem was that the senators weren't in their seats.

Al Franken would have been the 60th person but he wasn't sworn in to take his seat until July 2009. Which meant only 59 seats were filled with democrats.

By the time that Al Franken was sworn in two democratic senators were dying.

Robert Byrd and Teddy Kennedy had those seats but they weren't in them to cast their votes. So the democrats had 58 votes.

Both died. The man who replaced Teddy Kennedy was a republican so that lost the 60 seats.

The democrats never, once had the 60 votes to overcome the republican non stop filibuster.

Wrong. Obamacare was voted in 60-39 with all 60 votes being Democrats and the two independents who caucused with the Democrats. All 39 votes were Republican.

You're just wrong, Holmes

No I'm not wrong.

Robert Byrd and Ted Kennedy got out of their death beds to go to the senate to cast their votes for the ACA.

Ted Kennedy worked to get health care for Americans most of his life and there was no way he was going to miss that vote. Plus none of the republicans would vote on it so Byrd and Kennedy had to go to the senate to cast their votes. Which I find terrible. If the republicans had not been total jerks and used the filibuster, Kennedy and Byrd wouldn't have had to go to cast their votes. A simple majority vote would have done it but the republicans destroyed democracy in the senate so they could keep control of the senate. If they had not been such babies and not filibustered every single piece of legislation including the ACA, more legislation would have been passed and those 2 dying senators wouldn't have had to go to the congress to cast their votes for the ACA.

The ACA was the only piece of legislation that those men left their death beds to cast a vote.

You republicans should be ashamed of yourselves for supporting people who forced those 2 men to leave their death beds to cast their vote.

So your lying and rationalization won't work with me. I, like so many other Americans, remember it. It happened not that long ago.

 

[Correll]

NOt at all. I'm sure that you personally benefit.

BUt America as a whole gets fucked.


Doesn't it seem odd to you that if the Trade is supposedly Free, and Lord Knows America has a lot on the Ball, that we always lose?


To me, I strongly suspect hidden Fuck Yous in the supposedly Free and Fair and Open rules and regulations.

You're full of shit and parroting lawyers and ignoring economists ... in economics.

Offshoring work and reducing costs is good for our economy. I know you believe lawyers are Gods who know all and Vulcans who cannot lie, but the fact is that lower costs overall help our economy by lowering costs for consumers making them richer and making our companies more cost competitive providing other jobs.

You go ahead and parrot the lawyers who you worship that they know more about economics than economists do. But know this. They are full of shit. And since you believe their crap, so are you.

Here's the 411, they are lying to you for power. And it's working

You did not answer my question.

Is it not odd to you, that America always loses? With bigger and bigger trade deficits every year?

Loaded question fallacy.

It's also begging the question and a big steaming pile of shit.

But lawyers told you, it must be so!

So do you think lawyers are immortal?

What is the "load"?

Are you denying that we are losing when it comes to trade?

Because as a middle class person who has lived in the Rust Belt his whole life, it certainly feels like losing.


Hey, did you see this?


Life Expectancy for White Americans Declines



"Life expectancy fell for the U.S. white population in 2014 and remained flat for all population groups combined, according to data released Wednesday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, showing how increases in death rates from suicides, drug overdoses and related causes are threatening an important measure of health and prosperity."


"Such reversals, even small ones, are unusual for wealthy nations, where people tend to live longer with each successive generation, as health care and public safety improve and the standard of living rises.

In the U.S., life expectancy overall has been stagnant at 78.8 years since 2012, remaining below that of several European countries, Canada, Australia and Japan. The stagnation follows decades of steady gains in the U.S., from 69.7 years overall in 1960 to 76.8 years in 2000 and 78.7 years in 2010.

“It’s a wake-up call,” said Ali Mokdad, a professor of global health at the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington, which has analyzed U.S. county mortality data.

Still, there were improvements for some groups: African-American men gained 0.4 year of life expectancy in 2014, to 72.2 years.

There have been signs for years that health and socioeconomic problems might be chipping away at improvements in longevity for parts of the U.S. population. In 2008, the IHME reported that life expectancy had stagnated or declined for about 4% of men and 19% of women in the U.S. in the 1980s and 1990s. "






Like I said, feels like losing.

Obviously I'm denying we're losing at trade, dumb ass. Did you just pick that up?

And now, lawyers are going to extend our lives because they not only know more about economics than economists but they know the field of economics is wrong? And just fortunately for them, this truth gives them massively more power?

If you think about it, lawyers also gave us roads, doctors and invented pizza. They are the reason our mothers love us, the sun warms the earth and we have snow mobiles.

Ah, the wonderful lawyer, I see why you worship them so

Actually you kept focusing on how individual American businessmen were profiting, not so much America.



And, Logical Fallacy of Appeal to Ridicule.


Bad trade and immigration policy has led to generations of economic hard times for tens of millions, scores of millions of Americans. This stress has grown to the point of it literally killing US.

That is not a logical fallacy on my part. That is not something some lawyer told me.


I have seen it, hell, I have personally FELT it, my whole life.


Better trade and immigration policy, designed to pursue and advance American interests instead of an ideological commitment to Free Trade, will improve the jobs, wages and working conditions of American workers.


YOu have a better answer?

 

[kaz]

Still looking for your explanation how you know that you know more about economics than economists.

If you want to discuss this, I'm up for that. I'm an MBA in finance (a branch of economics) and spent my career in management and management consulting for international businesses and you're telling me that the field of economics is wrong and everything I experienced the last 25 years in business is wrong.

In March, I finished 9 months in the Netherlands working for the Dutch subsidiary of a US company. Not my first overseas project. I was always working for US companies. I've also offshored a lot of IT support to India.

You're not asking questions, you don't want to understand. It's just dull when you tell me my education and experience are wrong and you can't explain how you know that

I've seen that the national consensus of economists over the last 40 years have failed to deliver it's promised results.


I remember what was supposed to happen.

I can see that it did not.


In that, I know more than the economists who are ignoring reality and still insisting that the theory is sound.


What "question" do you think I need to ask?

Yes, obviously of lawyers tell you that, it must be true. All praise the great and all knowing lawyers!

No, I remember what was supposed to happen thanks to Free Trade.

It did not happen.

What "question" do you think that I need to ask?

Single cause fallacy

So, what was the "Real" cause(s) then?


THat lead US to lose, every single time. Despite the fact that so many of our trading partners and trading relationships are so different.

Begging the question fallacy.

I'm aware that lawyers say that. But I don't worship them like you do and I know from my own experience in international business that they are full of shit. When you tell me I have to believe you because you got it from the ultimate source, lawyers, it's like telling a Hindu they have to believe you because your Christian minister told you.

So tell me why you want to pay more for things that you buy and destroy American business's ability to compete on cost against our international competitors and lose all those jobs

 

[kaz]

You're full of shit and parroting lawyers and ignoring economists ... in economics.

Offshoring work and reducing costs is good for our economy. I know you believe lawyers are Gods who know all and Vulcans who cannot lie, but the fact is that lower costs overall help our economy by lowering costs for consumers making them richer and making our companies more cost competitive providing other jobs.

You go ahead and parrot the lawyers who you worship that they know more about economics than economists do. But know this. They are full of shit. And since you believe their crap, so are you.

Here's the 411, they are lying to you for power. And it's working

You did not answer my question.

Is it not odd to you, that America always loses? With bigger and bigger trade deficits every year?

Loaded question fallacy.

It's also begging the question and a big steaming pile of shit.

But lawyers told you, it must be so!

So do you think lawyers are immortal?

What is the "load"?

Are you denying that we are losing when it comes to trade?

Because as a middle class person who has lived in the Rust Belt his whole life, it certainly feels like losing.


Hey, did you see this?


Life Expectancy for White Americans Declines



"Life expectancy fell for the U.S. white population in 2014 and remained flat for all population groups combined, according to data released Wednesday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, showing how increases in death rates from suicides, drug overdoses and related causes are threatening an important measure of health and prosperity."


"Such reversals, even small ones, are unusual for wealthy nations, where people tend to live longer with each successive generation, as health care and public safety improve and the standard of living rises.

In the U.S., life expectancy overall has been stagnant at 78.8 years since 2012, remaining below that of several European countries, Canada, Australia and Japan. The stagnation follows decades of steady gains in the U.S., from 69.7 years overall in 1960 to 76.8 years in 2000 and 78.7 years in 2010.

“It’s a wake-up call,” said Ali Mokdad, a professor of global health at the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington, which has analyzed U.S. county mortality data.

Still, there were improvements for some groups: African-American men gained 0.4 year of life expectancy in 2014, to 72.2 years.

There have been signs for years that health and socioeconomic problems might be chipping away at improvements in longevity for parts of the U.S. population. In 2008, the IHME reported that life expectancy had stagnated or declined for about 4% of men and 19% of women in the U.S. in the 1980s and 1990s. "






Like I said, feels like losing.

Obviously I'm denying we're losing at trade, dumb ass. Did you just pick that up?

And now, lawyers are going to extend our lives because they not only know more about economics than economists but they know the field of economics is wrong? And just fortunately for them, this truth gives them massively more power?

If you think about it, lawyers also gave us roads, doctors and invented pizza. They are the reason our mothers love us, the sun warms the earth and we have snow mobiles.

Ah, the wonderful lawyer, I see why you worship them so

Actually you kept focusing on how individual American businessmen were profiting, not so much America.



And, Logical Fallacy of Appeal to Ridicule.


Bad trade and immigration policy has led to generations of economic hard times for tens of millions, scores of millions of Americans. This stress has grown to the point of it literally killing US.

That is not a logical fallacy on my part. That is not something some lawyer told me.


I have seen it, hell, I have personally FELT it, my whole life.


Better trade and immigration policy, designed to pursue and advance American interests instead of an ideological commitment to Free Trade, will improve the jobs, wages and working conditions of American workers.


YOu have a better answer?

I've told you several times why America benefits. Since you don't have an open mind and you're not listening, I'm not going to bother repeating it ... again ...

And yes, I'm just ridiculing you. I don't expect you to believe everything I say without question. But your insistence you know everything about what I studied and do for a living isn't worth putting any effort into debating anymore since you've made clear you believe with all your heart that lawyers are right and economists are wrong about economics

 

[Correll]

I've seen that the national consensus of economists over the last 40 years have failed to deliver it's promised results.


I remember what was supposed to happen.

I can see that it did not.


In that, I know more than the economists who are ignoring reality and still insisting that the theory is sound.


What "question" do you think I need to ask?

Yes, obviously of lawyers tell you that, it must be true. All praise the great and all knowing lawyers!

No, I remember what was supposed to happen thanks to Free Trade.

It did not happen.

What "question" do you think that I need to ask?

Single cause fallacy

So, what was the "Real" cause(s) then?


THat lead US to lose, every single time. Despite the fact that so many of our trading partners and trading relationships are so different.

Begging the question fallacy.

I'm aware that lawyers say that. But I don't worship them like you do and I know from my own experience in international business that they are full of shit. When you tell me I have to believe you because you got it from the ultimate source, lawyers, it's like telling a Hindu they have to believe you because your Christian minister told you.

So tell me why you want to pay more for things that you buy and destroy American business's ability to compete on cost against our international competitors and lose all those jobs

1. Because I do not want to save a few bucks at the expense of my fellow Americans.

2. Our massive and constant and ever growing trade deficits demonstrate that we CANNOT compete against our international competitors and we have lost all those jobs.

 

[kaz]

i'm never going to say that this president was a great president. but we've had far worse and congress didn't obstruct them from the day they were inaugurated. i'm not sure how you lead under those circumstances.

First two years of his presidency he had a congress that was controlled by his party, and he still couldn't get things done.

The ironic thing is, for years Democrats said, "If Republicans were more like John McCain, we could actually support them", and the minute the GOP nominated the actual John McCain, Democrats rejected him for the pinup boy. So now you act all surprised when the GOP goes nuts and nominates a Nazi who promises to crack some heads?

democrats need to start building their back bench. they need to put democrats in statehouse jobs, and local jobs and start developing the depth that the GOP has. what republicans can't have is all three branches of government. clearly they can't even be trusted with two. it is irksome when democrats get one million more votes in House races than the GOP and the GOP still usurps the House because of gerrymandering. that too needs to be changed and that will come from the courts at some point.

depth didn't help the GOP this time. They had lots of qualified candidates and they nominated Trump anyway. Meanwhile, the Democrats came way too close to nominating Comrade Bernie.

What should happen is both parties need to realize, "Hey, the people elected us to get some work done, let's get some work done". If Trump is winning, it's because he's created the illusion of someone who can get shit done.

Have no illusions... if Hillary wins, she's a one-term president who will have a 30% approval rating. And that assumes that we don't have a recession, which we probably will. The democrats will get slaughtered in the 2018 midterms and the GOP will be in a great position in 2020. Heck, I might even vote for them if they nominate someone who isn't batshit crazy.

I'm so sorry. You're mistaken.

The House was controlled by democrats those first two years.

The senate wasn't. The republicans refused to relinquish control by use of the filibuster.

If you remember in 2008, the democrats technically had those 60 seats for a short time. The problem was that the senators weren't in their seats.

Al Franken would have been the 60th person but he wasn't sworn in to take his seat until July 2009. Which meant only 59 seats were filled with democrats.

By the time that Al Franken was sworn in two democratic senators were dying.

Robert Byrd and Teddy Kennedy had those seats but they weren't in them to cast their votes. So the democrats had 58 votes.

Both died. The man who replaced Teddy Kennedy was a republican so that lost the 60 seats.

The democrats never, once had the 60 votes to overcome the republican non stop filibuster.

Wrong. Obamacare was voted in 60-39 with all 60 votes being Democrats and the two independents who caucused with the Democrats. All 39 votes were Republican.

You're just wrong, Holmes

No I'm not wrong.

Robert Byrd and Ted Kennedy got out of their death beds to go to the senate to cast their votes for the ACA.

Ted Kennedy worked to get health care for Americans most of his life and there was no way he was going to miss that vote. Plus none of the republicans would vote on it so Byrd and Kennedy had to go to the senate to cast their votes. Which I find terrible. If the republicans had not been total jerks and used the filibuster, Kennedy and Byrd wouldn't have had to go to cast their votes. A simple majority vote would have done it but the republicans destroyed democracy in the senate so they could keep control of the senate. If they had not been such babies and not filibustered every single piece of legislation including the ACA, more legislation would have been passed and those 2 dying senators wouldn't have had to go to the congress to cast their votes for the ACA.

The ACA was the only piece of legislation that those men left their death beds to cast a vote.

You republicans should be ashamed of yourselves for supporting people who forced those 2 men to leave their death beds to cast their vote.

So your lying and rationalization won't work with me. I, like so many other Americans, remember it. It happened not that long ago.

Well you're the Republican, Holmes. It was your party that failed to defeat Obamacare.

Given that not a single one of your Republican Party voted for Obamacare, how did Democrats get 60 votes if they never had a filibuster proof majority?

 

[Correll]

You did not answer my question.

Is it not odd to you, that America always loses? With bigger and bigger trade deficits every year?

Loaded question fallacy.

It's also begging the question and a big steaming pile of shit.

But lawyers told you, it must be so!

So do you think lawyers are immortal?

What is the "load"?

Are you denying that we are losing when it comes to trade?

Because as a middle class person who has lived in the Rust Belt his whole life, it certainly feels like losing.


Hey, did you see this?


Life Expectancy for White Americans Declines



"Life expectancy fell for the U.S. white population in 2014 and remained flat for all population groups combined, according to data released Wednesday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, showing how increases in death rates from suicides, drug overdoses and related causes are threatening an important measure of health and prosperity."


"Such reversals, even small ones, are unusual for wealthy nations, where people tend to live longer with each successive generation, as health care and public safety improve and the standard of living rises.

In the U.S., life expectancy overall has been stagnant at 78.8 years since 2012, remaining below that of several European countries, Canada, Australia and Japan. The stagnation follows decades of steady gains in the U.S., from 69.7 years overall in 1960 to 76.8 years in 2000 and 78.7 years in 2010.

“It’s a wake-up call,” said Ali Mokdad, a professor of global health at the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington, which has analyzed U.S. county mortality data.

Still, there were improvements for some groups: African-American men gained 0.4 year of life expectancy in 2014, to 72.2 years.

There have been signs for years that health and socioeconomic problems might be chipping away at improvements in longevity for parts of the U.S. population. In 2008, the IHME reported that life expectancy had stagnated or declined for about 4% of men and 19% of women in the U.S. in the 1980s and 1990s. "






Like I said, feels like losing.

Obviously I'm denying we're losing at trade, dumb ass. Did you just pick that up?

And now, lawyers are going to extend our lives because they not only know more about economics than economists but they know the field of economics is wrong? And just fortunately for them, this truth gives them massively more power?

If you think about it, lawyers also gave us roads, doctors and invented pizza. They are the reason our mothers love us, the sun warms the earth and we have snow mobiles.

Ah, the wonderful lawyer, I see why you worship them so

Actually you kept focusing on how individual American businessmen were profiting, not so much America.



And, Logical Fallacy of Appeal to Ridicule.


Bad trade and immigration policy has led to generations of economic hard times for tens of millions, scores of millions of Americans. This stress has grown to the point of it literally killing US.

That is not a logical fallacy on my part. That is not something some lawyer told me.


I have seen it, hell, I have personally FELT it, my whole life.


Better trade and immigration policy, designed to pursue and advance American interests instead of an ideological commitment to Free Trade, will improve the jobs, wages and working conditions of American workers.


YOu have a better answer?

I've told you several times why America benefits. Since you don't have an open mind and you're not listening, I'm not going to bother repeating it ... again ...

And yes, I'm just ridiculing you. I don't expect you to believe everything I say without question. But your insistence you know everything about what I studied and do for a living isn't worth putting any effort into debating anymore since you've made clear you believe with all your heart that lawyers are right and economists are wrong about economics

No, you have told me why individual American businessmen benefit.

That is not the sole basis of American trade policy. Nor should it be.


Your dismissal of the declining lifespan of American Whites was surprising and disappointing.



I've explained my position and my reasons for it seriously and honestly.

Ridicule in that context looks more like evasion on your part rather than something that my position deserves.

 

[kaz]

Yes, obviously of lawyers tell you that, it must be true. All praise the great and all knowing lawyers!

No, I remember what was supposed to happen thanks to Free Trade.

It did not happen.

What "question" do you think that I need to ask?

Single cause fallacy

So, what was the "Real" cause(s) then?


THat lead US to lose, every single time. Despite the fact that so many of our trading partners and trading relationships are so different.

Begging the question fallacy.

I'm aware that lawyers say that. But I don't worship them like you do and I know from my own experience in international business that they are full of shit. When you tell me I have to believe you because you got it from the ultimate source, lawyers, it's like telling a Hindu they have to believe you because your Christian minister told you.

So tell me why you want to pay more for things that you buy and destroy American business's ability to compete on cost against our international competitors and lose all those jobs

1. Because I do not want to save a few bucks at the expense of my fellow Americans.

2. Our massive and constant and ever growing trade deficits demonstrate that we CANNOT compete against our international competitors and we have lost all those jobs.

On 1, that isn't what I said, retard. It benefits Americans as a whole. Everything that happens has winners and losers. What you're advocating is a suicide pact

On 2. Single cause fallacy

 

[kaz]

Loaded question fallacy.

It's also begging the question and a big steaming pile of shit.

But lawyers told you, it must be so!

So do you think lawyers are immortal?

What is the "load"?

Are you denying that we are losing when it comes to trade?

Because as a middle class person who has lived in the Rust Belt his whole life, it certainly feels like losing.


Hey, did you see this?


Life Expectancy for White Americans Declines



"Life expectancy fell for the U.S. white population in 2014 and remained flat for all population groups combined, according to data released Wednesday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, showing how increases in death rates from suicides, drug overdoses and related causes are threatening an important measure of health and prosperity."


"Such reversals, even small ones, are unusual for wealthy nations, where people tend to live longer with each successive generation, as health care and public safety improve and the standard of living rises.

In the U.S., life expectancy overall has been stagnant at 78.8 years since 2012, remaining below that of several European countries, Canada, Australia and Japan. The stagnation follows decades of steady gains in the U.S., from 69.7 years overall in 1960 to 76.8 years in 2000 and 78.7 years in 2010.

“It’s a wake-up call,” said Ali Mokdad, a professor of global health at the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington, which has analyzed U.S. county mortality data.

Still, there were improvements for some groups: African-American men gained 0.4 year of life expectancy in 2014, to 72.2 years.

There have been signs for years that health and socioeconomic problems might be chipping away at improvements in longevity for parts of the U.S. population. In 2008, the IHME reported that life expectancy had stagnated or declined for about 4% of men and 19% of women in the U.S. in the 1980s and 1990s. "






Like I said, feels like losing.

Obviously I'm denying we're losing at trade, dumb ass. Did you just pick that up?

And now, lawyers are going to extend our lives because they not only know more about economics than economists but they know the field of economics is wrong? And just fortunately for them, this truth gives them massively more power?

If you think about it, lawyers also gave us roads, doctors and invented pizza. They are the reason our mothers love us, the sun warms the earth and we have snow mobiles.

Ah, the wonderful lawyer, I see why you worship them so

Actually you kept focusing on how individual American businessmen were profiting, not so much America.



And, Logical Fallacy of Appeal to Ridicule.


Bad trade and immigration policy has led to generations of economic hard times for tens of millions, scores of millions of Americans. This stress has grown to the point of it literally killing US.

That is not a logical fallacy on my part. That is not something some lawyer told me.


I have seen it, hell, I have personally FELT it, my whole life.


Better trade and immigration policy, designed to pursue and advance American interests instead of an ideological commitment to Free Trade, will improve the jobs, wages and working conditions of American workers.


YOu have a better answer?

I've told you several times why America benefits. Since you don't have an open mind and you're not listening, I'm not going to bother repeating it ... again ...

And yes, I'm just ridiculing you. I don't expect you to believe everything I say without question. But your insistence you know everything about what I studied and do for a living isn't worth putting any effort into debating anymore since you've made clear you believe with all your heart that lawyers are right and economists are wrong about economics

No, you have told me why individual American businessmen benefit.

That is not the sole basis of American trade policy. Nor should it be.

Strawman fallacy

Your dismissal of the declining lifespan of American Whites was surprising and disappointing.

cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy

I've explained my position and my reasons for it seriously and honestly

appeal to emotion fallacy

Ridicule in that context looks more like evasion on your part rather than something that my position deserves.

You kept committing the argumentum ad nauseum fallacy.

If this is a real concern to you. Why do you have zero interest in having an actual discussion with someone who is educated in this and does it for a living? I am NOT saying you need to blindly believe me as you do lawyers. I am saying you keep repeating what DC lawyers keep telling you and listening to nothing else and you have no interest in considering anything else or discussing anything else.

All you do is keep repeating ad nauseum that you believe lawyers when they tell you that the field of economics is wrong about economics and if you do what's completely self serving to them, give them more power, they will fix everything.

I already know what lawyers say, you don't need to keep telling me that. I hear it every day from them too. I just know they are full of shit and why. But you're not interested in discussing that, just telling me what they already told me. The difference between us being that you believe them and I don't

 

[Correll]

No, I remember what was supposed to happen thanks to Free Trade.

It did not happen.

What "question" do you think that I need to ask?

Single cause fallacy

So, what was the "Real" cause(s) then?


THat lead US to lose, every single time. Despite the fact that so many of our trading partners and trading relationships are so different.

Begging the question fallacy.

I'm aware that lawyers say that. But I don't worship them like you do and I know from my own experience in international business that they are full of shit. When you tell me I have to believe you because you got it from the ultimate source, lawyers, it's like telling a Hindu they have to believe you because your Christian minister told you.

So tell me why you want to pay more for things that you buy and destroy American business's ability to compete on cost against our international competitors and lose all those jobs

1. Because I do not want to save a few bucks at the expense of my fellow Americans.

2. Our massive and constant and ever growing trade deficits demonstrate that we CANNOT compete against our international competitors and we have lost all those jobs.

On 1, that isn't what I said, retard. It benefits Americans as a whole. Everything that happens has winners and losers. What you're advocating is a suicide pact

On 2. Single cause fallacy

1. You've done little to support that claim. Or to address the evidence I have presented showing otherwise.

2. Massive and constant and every growing trade deficits are not a "single cause" they are the RESULT. Economic hardship so bad that it is killing Americans, is not a "single cause" it is a result.

 

[kaz]

Single cause fallacy

So, what was the "Real" cause(s) then?


THat lead US to lose, every single time. Despite the fact that so many of our trading partners and trading relationships are so different.

Begging the question fallacy.

I'm aware that lawyers say that. But I don't worship them like you do and I know from my own experience in international business that they are full of shit. When you tell me I have to believe you because you got it from the ultimate source, lawyers, it's like telling a Hindu they have to believe you because your Christian minister told you.

So tell me why you want to pay more for things that you buy and destroy American business's ability to compete on cost against our international competitors and lose all those jobs

1. Because I do not want to save a few bucks at the expense of my fellow Americans.

2. Our massive and constant and ever growing trade deficits demonstrate that we CANNOT compete against our international competitors and we have lost all those jobs.

On 1, that isn't what I said, retard. It benefits Americans as a whole. Everything that happens has winners and losers. What you're advocating is a suicide pact

On 2. Single cause fallacy

1. You've done little to support that claim. Or to address the evidence I have presented showing otherwise.

2. Massive and constant and every growing trade deficits are not a "single cause" they are the RESULT. Economic hardship so bad that it is killing Americans, is not a "single cause" it is a result.

1. Actually I tried several times and you showed zero interest in the discussion so I stopped putting effort into what you aren't even reading and just ridiculed you for saying you know more about economics than economists, you know more about what I do for a living than I do, and you can't tell me how you know that

2. You're full of shit, see point 1

 

[Correll]

What is the "load"?

Are you denying that we are losing when it comes to trade?

Because as a middle class person who has lived in the Rust Belt his whole life, it certainly feels like losing.


Hey, did you see this?


Life Expectancy for White Americans Declines



"Life expectancy fell for the U.S. white population in 2014 and remained flat for all population groups combined, according to data released Wednesday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, showing how increases in death rates from suicides, drug overdoses and related causes are threatening an important measure of health and prosperity."


"Such reversals, even small ones, are unusual for wealthy nations, where people tend to live longer with each successive generation, as health care and public safety improve and the standard of living rises.

In the U.S., life expectancy overall has been stagnant at 78.8 years since 2012, remaining below that of several European countries, Canada, Australia and Japan. The stagnation follows decades of steady gains in the U.S., from 69.7 years overall in 1960 to 76.8 years in 2000 and 78.7 years in 2010.

“It’s a wake-up call,” said Ali Mokdad, a professor of global health at the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington, which has analyzed U.S. county mortality data.

Still, there were improvements for some groups: African-American men gained 0.4 year of life expectancy in 2014, to 72.2 years.

There have been signs for years that health and socioeconomic problems might be chipping away at improvements in longevity for parts of the U.S. population. In 2008, the IHME reported that life expectancy had stagnated or declined for about 4% of men and 19% of women in the U.S. in the 1980s and 1990s. "






Like I said, feels like losing.

Obviously I'm denying we're losing at trade, dumb ass. Did you just pick that up?

And now, lawyers are going to extend our lives because they not only know more about economics than economists but they know the field of economics is wrong? And just fortunately for them, this truth gives them massively more power?

If you think about it, lawyers also gave us roads, doctors and invented pizza. They are the reason our mothers love us, the sun warms the earth and we have snow mobiles.

Ah, the wonderful lawyer, I see why you worship them so

Actually you kept focusing on how individual American businessmen were profiting, not so much America.



And, Logical Fallacy of Appeal to Ridicule.


Bad trade and immigration policy has led to generations of economic hard times for tens of millions, scores of millions of Americans. This stress has grown to the point of it literally killing US.

That is not a logical fallacy on my part. That is not something some lawyer told me.


I have seen it, hell, I have personally FELT it, my whole life.


Better trade and immigration policy, designed to pursue and advance American interests instead of an ideological commitment to Free Trade, will improve the jobs, wages and working conditions of American workers.


YOu have a better answer?

I've told you several times why America benefits. Since you don't have an open mind and you're not listening, I'm not going to bother repeating it ... again ...

And yes, I'm just ridiculing you. I don't expect you to believe everything I say without question. But your insistence you know everything about what I studied and do for a living isn't worth putting any effort into debating anymore since you've made clear you believe with all your heart that lawyers are right and economists are wrong about economics

No, you have told me why individual American businessmen benefit.

That is not the sole basis of American trade policy. Nor should it be.

Strawman fallacy

Nope. You seemed to be conflating individual American businessman with America as a whole. In doing so, you gave the impression that you believed that American trade policy should be crafted to benefit American businessmen.

YOu might want to consider the possibility that you are underestimating your emotional investment in this position.

Your dismissal of the declining lifespan of American Whites was surprising and disappointing.

cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy[/QUOTE]


THe linked article cited economic issues as a cause. I am not aware of any other issue large enough and negative enough to out weight advancing technology.

I've explained my position and my reasons for it seriously and honestly

appeal to emotion fallacy[/QUOTE]


Indeed. My hope was that your pride in your self image as a reasonable person would lead you to be less insulting and more engaging.

Ridicule in that context looks more like evasion on your part rather than something that my position deserves.

You kept committing the argumentum ad nauseum fallacy.[/QUOTE]


THat seems like nonsense. IF I keep saying the same thing, it is because I do not believe that you have addressed that point.


If this is a real concern to you. Why do you have zero interest in having an actual discussion with someone who is educated in this and does it for a living? I am NOT saying you need to blindly believe me as you do lawyers. I am saying you keep repeating what DC lawyers keep telling you and listening to nothing else and you have no interest in considering anything else or discussing anything else.

All you do is keep repeating ad nauseum that you believe lawyers when they tell you that the field of economics is wrong about economics and if you do what's completely self serving to them, give them more power, they will fix everything.

I already know what lawyers say, you don't need to keep telling me that. I hear it every day from them too. I just know they are full of shit and why. But you're not interested in discussing that, just telling me what they already told me. The difference between us being that you believe them and I don't[/QUOTE]



This last portion makes very little sense to me. I base my views on Trade on my personal knowledge of the failure of US trade policy over the last 40 years.

 

[namvet]

he'll win. we've seen to it

 

[Dana7360]

i'm never going to say that this president was a great president. but we've had far worse and congress didn't obstruct them from the day they were inaugurated. i'm not sure how you lead under those circumstances.

First two years of his presidency he had a congress that was controlled by his party, and he still couldn't get things done.

The ironic thing is, for years Democrats said, "If Republicans were more like John McCain, we could actually support them", and the minute the GOP nominated the actual John McCain, Democrats rejected him for the pinup boy. So now you act all surprised when the GOP goes nuts and nominates a Nazi who promises to crack some heads?

democrats need to start building their back bench. they need to put democrats in statehouse jobs, and local jobs and start developing the depth that the GOP has. what republicans can't have is all three branches of government. clearly they can't even be trusted with two. it is irksome when democrats get one million more votes in House races than the GOP and the GOP still usurps the House because of gerrymandering. that too needs to be changed and that will come from the courts at some point.

depth didn't help the GOP this time. They had lots of qualified candidates and they nominated Trump anyway. Meanwhile, the Democrats came way too close to nominating Comrade Bernie.

What should happen is both parties need to realize, "Hey, the people elected us to get some work done, let's get some work done". If Trump is winning, it's because he's created the illusion of someone who can get shit done.

Have no illusions... if Hillary wins, she's a one-term president who will have a 30% approval rating. And that assumes that we don't have a recession, which we probably will. The democrats will get slaughtered in the 2018 midterms and the GOP will be in a great position in 2020. Heck, I might even vote for them if they nominate someone who isn't batshit crazy.

I'm so sorry. You're mistaken.

The House was controlled by democrats those first two years.

The senate wasn't. The republicans refused to relinquish control by use of the filibuster.

If you remember in 2008, the democrats technically had those 60 seats for a short time. The problem was that the senators weren't in their seats.

Al Franken would have been the 60th person but he wasn't sworn in to take his seat until July 2009. Which meant only 59 seats were filled with democrats.

By the time that Al Franken was sworn in two democratic senators were dying.

Robert Byrd and Teddy Kennedy had those seats but they weren't in them to cast their votes. So the democrats had 58 votes.

Both died. The man who replaced Teddy Kennedy was a republican so that lost the 60 seats.

The democrats never, once had the 60 votes to overcome the republican non stop filibuster.

Thanks. Your memory is better than mine.

You're welcome.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Correct me if I am wrong but no living President, Secretary of State or FED Chairman endorses Trump..

These are the people who know what the job on President is about and not one of them said Trump can do it...

Sorry this looks like evidence and we know how the Trump side just hates facts and evidence....

No entrenched political fuckheads support Trump?
Perhaps I should reconsider

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

i'm never going to say that this president was a great president. but we've had far worse and congress didn't obstruct them from the day they were inaugurated. i'm not sure how you lead under those circumstances.

First two years of his presidency he had a congress that was controlled by his party, and he still couldn't get things done.

The ironic thing is, for years Democrats said, "If Republicans were more like John McCain, we could actually support them", and the minute the GOP nominated the actual John McCain, Democrats rejected him for the pinup boy. So now you act all surprised when the GOP goes nuts and nominates a Nazi who promises to crack some heads?

democrats need to start building their back bench. they need to put democrats in statehouse jobs, and local jobs and start developing the depth that the GOP has. what republicans can't have is all three branches of government. clearly they can't even be trusted with two. it is irksome when democrats get one million more votes in House races than the GOP and the GOP still usurps the House because of gerrymandering. that too needs to be changed and that will come from the courts at some point.

depth didn't help the GOP this time. They had lots of qualified candidates and they nominated Trump anyway. Meanwhile, the Democrats came way too close to nominating Comrade Bernie.

What should happen is both parties need to realize, "Hey, the people elected us to get some work done, let's get some work done". If Trump is winning, it's because he's created the illusion of someone who can get shit done.

Have no illusions... if Hillary wins, she's a one-term president who will have a 30% approval rating. And that assumes that we don't have a recession, which we probably will. The democrats will get slaughtered in the 2018 midterms and the GOP will be in a great position in 2020. Heck, I might even vote for them if they nominate someone who isn't batshit crazy.

I'm so sorry. You're mistaken.

The House was controlled by democrats those first two years.

The senate wasn't. The republicans refused to relinquish control by use of the filibuster.

If you remember in 2008, the democrats technically had those 60 seats for a short time. The problem was that the senators weren't in their seats.

Al Franken would have been the 60th person but he wasn't sworn in to take his seat until July 2009. Which meant only 59 seats were filled with democrats.

By the time that Al Franken was sworn in two democratic senators were dying.

Robert Byrd and Teddy Kennedy had those seats but they weren't in them to cast their votes. So the democrats had 58 votes.

Both died. The man who replaced Teddy Kennedy was a republican so that lost the 60 seats.

The democrats never, once had the 60 votes to overcome the republican non stop filibuster.

Thanks. Your memory is better than mine.

You're welcome.

Get a room