Zone1 Noah's Ark

[Woodznutz]

The Bible says nothing about rape of Noah. I think it's about Noah's shame.

The KJV often translates terms in a 'Victorian' way, which often disguises their actual meaning. The term "nakedness" has a far more onerous meaning than just 'nudity'.

 

[JustAGuy1]

Yes, when they were little. I didn't drink.

The Bible says nothing about rape of Noah. I think it's about Noah's shame.

22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26 And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
– Genesis 9:20–27, King James Version

You're still hiding. What does the text actually say about why the flood happened? I am truly starting to pity you.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

I commented on the theology of the Ark story but do people actually believe the story documents an actual historical event? If so, was it a global or a local flood?

Prehistory Detective

Instead of a flood of water, it could have been a bloodbath that Noah escaped from. That also accounts for all the people killed, not "all people."

The name Noah is a personification of the Hebrew word for "rest" after becoming war refugees.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Noah's ark foretells a greater ark described in the book of the Revelation. It is 12000 furlongs' 4 square. It is an ark 38% of the cubic volume of the moon. It is our ride to that new heaven and new earth. Our Fathers house has many rooms.
Most believe the description given is that of heaven. I think of it more as the City of God.
When it shows up in our night sky, everyone will see it. We still have a thousand years to go before it arrives.

From Ur to Uranus

 

[hobelim]

Prehistory Detective

Instead of a flood of water, it could have been a bloodbath that Noah escaped from. That also accounts for all the people killed, not "all people."

Interesting take. I never thought of that. I like it. I also had a similar idea that the rising waters could represent a rising tide against corrupt leadership, which would have gone over the heads of the mountains, Whoosh! Mountains being a metaphor for the big shots, the rich, or the religious elite of the time who loomed over the human landscape like immovable mountains and felt untouchable leading smooth easy lives, complacent and unprepared for what was coming.

Kind of like today.... "Just as it was in the days of Noah"

Luke 17:26, Matthew 24:37, Hebrews 11:7, 1 Peter 3:20, 2 Peter 2:5

 

[alang1216]

Prehistory Detective

Instead of a flood of water, it could have been a bloodbath that Noah escaped from. That also accounts for all the people killed, not "all people."

The name Noah is a personification of the Hebrew word for "rest" after becoming war refugees.

Maybe. I lean to local floods since many cultures have similar myths but the there is no evidence of a global flood. Maybe each is recalling an exceptional local event. Less likely is a memory of rising sea levels at the end of the ice age.

 

[Woodznutz]

Maybe. I lean to local floods since many cultures have similar myths but the there is no evidence of a global flood. Maybe each is recalling an exceptional local event. Less likely is a memory of rising sea levels at the end of the ice age.

To those affected it would be a local event. They would have no way of knowing the extent of the flood. The descendants of Noah's family carried the flood story into their traditional beliefs.

 

[Ace Nova]

Gen 9:22 "And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without."

So Noah gets drunk and naked and Ham accidentally sees him and gets his two brothers to cover him up. Why exactly is Noah mad about this? Obviously something else is going on.

All evidence points to Canaan. Japheth was Noah's youngest son, not Ham. Recall that Jacob adopted his grandsons as his own sons. So, the precedent wasn't unknown. Canaan is introduced immediately in the narrative as well, likely as the offender and thus the curse.

It's not sexual in nature - it doesn't need to be if you understand the severity of what Ham did.

"To the Hebrews drunkenness is wanton, dishonorable, and humiliating; it provokes ridicule, leads to idolatry, incites violence, causes injustice and poverty, and makes persons subject to their enemies. It is unseemly especially for the leaders of nations. Clothing, then, in addition to being a means of decency, expresses the dignity of the person and his or her social position. When naked (Gen 3:7), Adam and Eve are deprived of glory and grace; the garments of skin with which God clothes them (Gen 3:21) are symbolic of their hope of being clothed again in their lost dignity."

Ham saw his father in a very dishonorable state, lying naked after getting drunk. Instead of respectfully and quietly covering his father out of honor - he told his brothers that their father was in a drunken, naked state - essentially mocking their father - causing the "return of sin".

Had Ham covered his father without saying a word to anyone about it - Noah's mistake would not have been witnessed and mocked as a sin. Ham's sin by dishonoring his father when his father was already in a humiliated state also caused his father's sin to be realized - sin leads to more sin.

Ham then put his brothers in a difficult position which could have caused them to "sin" by disrespecting their father.

Instead, his brothers - by walking backwards (not witnessing their father in a naked/dishonored state) restored their father's honor by "covering him up" so that no one could witness him in that state. They chose a much more difficult path in order to remain "righteous" and to restore "righteousness" to their father.

"Ham was the father of the people of Canaan."

“Cursed be Canaan!
A slave of slaves
shall he be to his brothers!”
26 And he continued,

“Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem,
and let Canaan be his slave!
May God enlarge Japheth
so that he dwells in the land of Shem;
and let Canaan be his slave!”

Since Ham was "The Father of the people of Canaan" and chose a path of "sin" instead of "honor" his people would do the same - but since righteousness defeats sin (As shown by his brothers) his people's ways would be defeated by "The righteous ways" of his brothers and their people.

 

[alang1216]

To those affected it would be a local event. They would have no way of knowing the extent of the flood. The descendants of Noah's family carried the flood story into their traditional beliefs.

Curious that the Mesopotamian culture there had flood myths but Noah wasn't mentioned. In fact, their, myths, predating Noah by a millennium have a very different focus.

 

[hobelim]

Less likely is a memory of rising sea levels at the end of the ice age.

The ice age ended approximately 11,500 years ago. The oldest known version of this story is about 5000 years old, which corresponds perfectly to the date of the Burckle crater at the bottom of the Indian Ocean under more than 11,000 feet of water which is about 25 times the size of meteor crater in Arizona. The impact would have instantly vaporized billions of metric tons of water into the atmosphere causing mega tsunamis and superstorms and a worldwide deluge that would have lasted for weeks sweeping away every coastal city and every village and settlement built next to rivers, streams, and even dry washes in the deserts on every continent.

This would also account for the more than 200 mind boggling flood stories from every continent.

List of flood myths - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Ace Nova]

You're still hiding. What does the text actually say about why the flood happened? I am truly starting to pity you.

What are you getting at, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[JustAGuy1]

What are you getting at, if you don't mind me asking?

The portion of the text I am asking for clearly spells out what the flood was about, she is too frightened to answer because she knows it will make her look bad. There was a VERY specific reason for the flood.

 

[Ace Nova]

The portion of the text I am asking for clearly spells out what the flood was about, she is too frightened to answer because she knows it will make her look bad. There was a VERY specific reason for the flood.

The story of Noah getting drunk and his sons covering him happened after the flood. It happened after God's Covenant of Mercy:

Genesis 8:

Covenant of Mercy. God said to Noah and his sons, 9 “As for me, I will establish my covenant with you and your descendants after you, 10 with every living creature along with you—the birds, tame and wild animals, and with all the animals which left the ark. 11 I will establish my covenant with you: never again will all living creatures be cut off by the waters of a flood, nor will the earth be laid waste by a flood again.”

12 God said, “This will be a sign of the covenant that I establish between me and you and every living creature for all generations. 13 I will place my rainbow in the clouds and it will be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 When I gather the clouds over the earth, the rainbow will appear in the clouds. 15 I will remember my covenant between me and you and with every living creature of every kind, that water and flood shall never again destroy all flesh. 16 The rainbow will be in the clouds and I will look upon it and remember the eternal covenant between God and every living creature of every kind that is found upon the earth.”

17 God said to Noah, “This is a sign of the covenant that I am establishing between myself and every creature upon the earth.”

​

 

[JustAGuy1]

The story of Noah getting drunk and his sons covering him happened after the flood. It happened after God's Covenant of Mercy:

Genesis 8:

Covenant of Mercy. God said to Noah and his sons, 9 “As for me, I will establish my covenant with you and your descendants after you, 10 with every living creature along with you—the birds, tame and wild animals, and with all the animals which left the ark. 11 I will establish my covenant with you: never again will all living creatures be cut off by the waters of a flood, nor will the earth be laid waste by a flood again.”

12 God said, “This will be a sign of the covenant that I establish between me and you and every living creature for all generations. 13 I will place my rainbow in the clouds and it will be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 When I gather the clouds over the earth, the rainbow will appear in the clouds. 15 I will remember my covenant between me and you and with every living creature of every kind, that water and flood shall never again destroy all flesh. 16 The rainbow will be in the clouds and I will look upon it and remember the eternal covenant between God and every living creature of every kind that is found upon the earth.”

17 God said to Noah, “This is a sign of the covenant that I am establishing between myself and every creature upon the earth.”

​

I am not going to spoon feed anyone. She knows what it is.

 

[BreezeWood]

There was a VERY specific reason for the flood.

were it to be believed, the triumph of evil was at hand ... not just a few, rather everyone was about to vote for trump.

 

[LeroyDumonde]

Canaan did the deed, not his father. Grandsons were considered to be 'sons' back then. That's why Canaan is referred as Noah's 'youngest' son, who 'did something' to Noah.

No, the Bible is quite clear that the people involved were Ham, Shem, and Japheth. Canaan, who did nothing, got cursed because the drunkard Noah is somehow righteous. Face it, the god of the Bible is a shit tier god with no sense of right or wrong.

 

[Ace Nova]

No, the Bible is quite clear that the people involved were Ham, Shem, and Japheth. Canaan, who did nothing, got cursed because the drunkard Noah is somehow righteous. Face it, the god of the Bible is a shit tier god with no sense of right or wrong.

That story is a parable. No one got raped and the so called "curse" was Noah telling his sons the "The righteous way will lead to blessings while the unrighteous way will lead to contempt"

I explained it in detail in my previous posts.

 

[LeroyDumonde]

That story is a parable. No one got raped and the so called "curse" was Noah telling his sons the "The righteous way will lead to blessings while the unrighteous way will lead to contempt"

I explained it in detail in my previous posts.

Except Canaan was the one who was cursed even though he wasn't involved. The story isn't a parable, though I agree that it never happened. It was political propaganda to smear Canaanites. In this regard it's similar to the story of Lot which also didn't happened, but was a smear against the Edomites. Using made up stories to smear your political opponents is something Jews have been doing for millennia, and continue to do even today.

 

[Ace Nova]

Except Canaan was the one who was cursed even though he wasn't involved. The story isn't a parable, though I agree that it never happened. It was political propaganda to smear Canaanites. In this regard it's similar to the story of Lot which also didn't happened, but was a smear against the Edomites. Using made up stories to smear your political opponents is something Jews have been doing for millennia, and continue to do even today.

That could be true - they may have used it to explain political feuds with Canaan - that doesn't take away from the meaning of the story:

"Ham was the father of the people of Canaan."

“Cursed be Canaan!
A slave of slaves
shall he be to his brothers!”
26 And he continued,

“Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem,
and let Canaan be his slave!
May God enlarge Japheth
so that he dwells in the land of Shem;
and let Canaan be his slave!”

Since Ham was "The Father of the people of Canaan" and chose a path of "sin" instead of "honor" his people would do the same - but since righteousness defeats sin (As shown by his brothers) his people's ways would be defeated by "The righteous ways" of his brothers and their people.

 

[LeroyDumonde]

Since Ham was "The Father of the people of Canaan" and chose a path of "sin" instead of "honor" his people would do the same - but since righteousness defeats sin (As shown by his brothers) his people's ways would be defeated by "The righteous ways" of his brothers and their people.

Why should Ham's descendants, but not Ham, suffer for Ham's actions?