One more reason why the Tax Proposal is a GOP scam.....

[otto105]

Corporations pass the cost of taxes and regulation on to the consumer you big Dope. Frankly I pay enough for stuff as it is. Maybe you want to pay more.

But, but, but the Right have been telling us that a consumption tax is the fairest of all taxes, they even renamed it "The Fair Tax." So since corporate taxes, as you pointed out, are de facto consumption taxes, then the fairest thing to do is replace all taxes with corporate taxes, then you won't even need a post card to do your taxes. What could be simpler????

/----/ What Righties? I never supported a Consumption tax, we have those now. They're called tolls, permits, licenses and access fees. I do support throwing out the Tax Code and having a FLAT TAX.

The flat tax is a stupid idea pushed by only people that would gain the most at the expense of the rest.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

Great News. My company paid for my relocation. Happy now?

But will your "company" continue paying for your stay at the mental institution? LOL

If lowering taxes makes it cheaper for the corporation to stay where they are, as opposed to going to another State or nation that would be more expensive, what reason would that company have to leave? Do you have a clear answer for that Nat?

Come on, tell us what job is created by raising Federal taxes?

Employee salaries are a business expense. Say the corporation has a dollar in profit. If they want, they can spend that dollar on creating a new job. If not, well they can pay the tax on that dollar and keep the rest. The tax rate is thirty five percent. That means they can spend a dollar on a new job or keep sixty five cents. Now the tax rate is lowered. They can spend the dollar on a new job or they can keep eighty cents. The "opportunity cost" of creating a job instead of booking a profit INCREASES as the tax rate declines. Now, you want to tell me why corporations will create more jobs when the cost of doing so increases as the tax rate declines.

I mean this is some simple ass shit. Like the decline of our manufacturing base. Everyone wants to blame outsourcing, shifting jobs overseas. But it is not the "cause", it is just a symptom. The declining tax rate is the cause. In the early1950's the "effective corporate tax rate" was north of fifty percent. That means if a company saved a dollar by shifting production abroad they could only keep a little less than fifty cents. Now the EFFECTIVE corporate tax rate is closer to twenty percent. They save that dollar now they get to keep damn near eighty cents. Hell some companies, like say, GE, with an effective tax rate of less than three percent over the last decade, get to keep damn near the WHOLE DOLLAR. Now, it's one thing to close down a factory, layoff workers, implement a transpacific shipping arrangement, lose community and employee allegiance, and adopt a far flung supply chain to manage, if you only get to keep fifty cents on the dollar. It is quite another if you get to keep it all.

I mean I don't know where you people live, and I don't know where you work, but if you are looking it is damn easy to see the ramifications of this declining effective corporate tax rate. No companies invest in their people anymore, they attempt to steal them from somewhere else or they bitch and moan and look to the GOVERNMENT to fund their employees training, at say a community college. Sneak in to the backroom of your local Walmart. Check out the mops. Yeah, the damn mops. They are filled with grease, nasty as hell, because they can't even invest in a new mop-head. It's freakin comical. Companies look to cut corners at every turn, packaging sucks ass. The trucking fleets are comprised of dinosaurs that spew out toxic gases, break down constantly, and require an entire staff of mechanics to keep them going. Farmers don't own combines anymore, they RENT THEM.

In a nutshell, when corporate taxes are high companies are forced to look and plan for the long term. When they are low, they are encouraged to "cash out", to seek short term gains at the expense of long term growth. They are discouraged from investing in everything from people to mop-heads, and instead encouraged to take the money and run. Look the fawk around. It is precisely what is happening, precisely what has been happening, and cutting corporate tax rates further will only add gasoline to the fire that is already burning down this nation. Only a sheer fool would believe otherwise.

Ok let’s say the product is something similar to Ben and Jerry’s Ice Cream.

Raise the federal tax on where they are located in manufacturing the actual ice cream. Add the cost of where they get their ingredients from. What about packaging? Do they do that themselves? Add another shipment order expense from the company that produces your containers as well as their manufacturing expenses to produce those containers for you. That location also pays a Federal tax based on the number of containers they manufacture in trying to create a profit, before distributing that unto you.

Now there is the shipment cost to deliver your product, as well as in receiving your containers shipped to you. So do you choose a tractor trailer, or possibly refrigerated freight train, all that transportation adds to their Federal business tax in allowing their services to be used in shipping your product.

Now add tolls. What about fuel consumption? There are Federal taxes to be found there.

Would you like to utilize a refrigerated distribution warehouse in various parts of the country to help expedite shipping? Well now you are into storage fees, additional property taxes. Can’t afford to own the site? Well now you are paying a rental fee to utilize the facility. Add the cost of refrigerant and the costs associated with having it filled and the distribution center site maintained.

Do you need security on site to control theft? I’m sure you don’t own the security company. Let’s add another expense and their charge which includes what they pay in Federal Taxes (obviously they are not going to lose money and that owner wants to make some profit for his services to you as well).

Mandatory Federal Health Care for all employees? Well you just added another cost, obviously all these pre-mentioned services are not going to eat that expense either.

So now your product has made its way to be delivered to a supermarket or restaurant to sell. There is yet another business tax associated with each one of those locations and their property taxes. Don’t forget that sales taxes which gets passed to the consumer.

Now as each one of these various providers faces a Federal corporate tax increase in doing business, what happens to the price at each one of these services? What happens on the cost of the product when you finally see the sticker price on that supermarket shelf, as you go to open that freezer door?

You want to still tell me that raising Federal taxes helps to create jobs?

So in Kansas they lowered corporate taxes...

In 1993 President William Jefferson Clinton raised taxes on the rich and .....

You mean during the time when the Y2K scare came about, most Americans throught being a computer programmer was the best career path to take to make a living? That of course resulted in that job market getting saturated, then after 1999 most of those programmers were out of a job?

Seriously, did we forget the Y2K computer hype already? What else you got?

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

You want to still tell me that raising Federal taxes helps to create jobs?

Who the fuck is talking about RAISING federal taxes???

Excuse me but aren’t the porgressives the ones stating that lowering corporate taxes won’t create jobs and does not stimulate the economy? Where have you been Nat?

 

[edthecynic]

The middle class, teachers unions, public and private unions own the corporations fool. Where do you think everyone has their retirement savings invested. Lowering the corporate tax puts more money in their pockets fact!

Nothing the Right says is a "fact" is ever a fact. Very few middle class have any significant amount of investments!

Wealth class Percent of all stock owned

Top 1% 33.5%

Next 19% 55.8%

Bottom 80% 10.7%

You lie!

Actually those numbers are outdated. The current numbers are:

Top 1% 49.8%

Next 9% 41.2%

Bottom 90% 9.1%

 

[basquebromance]

Trump: The economy is great!

Also Trump: Tax reform will make the economy great!

 

[Winston]

Great News. My company paid for my relocation. Happy now?

But will your "company" continue paying for your stay at the mental institution? LOL

If lowering taxes makes it cheaper for the corporation to stay where they are, as opposed to going to another State or nation that would be more expensive, what reason would that company have to leave? Do you have a clear answer for that Nat?

Come on, tell us what job is created by raising Federal taxes?

Employee salaries are a business expense. Say the corporation has a dollar in profit. If they want, they can spend that dollar on creating a new job. If not, well they can pay the tax on that dollar and keep the rest. The tax rate is thirty five percent. That means they can spend a dollar on a new job or keep sixty five cents. Now the tax rate is lowered. They can spend the dollar on a new job or they can keep eighty cents. The "opportunity cost" of creating a job instead of booking a profit INCREASES as the tax rate declines. Now, you want to tell me why corporations will create more jobs when the cost of doing so increases as the tax rate declines.

I mean this is some simple ass shit. Like the decline of our manufacturing base. Everyone wants to blame outsourcing, shifting jobs overseas. But it is not the "cause", it is just a symptom. The declining tax rate is the cause. In the early1950's the "effective corporate tax rate" was north of fifty percent. That means if a company saved a dollar by shifting production abroad they could only keep a little less than fifty cents. Now the EFFECTIVE corporate tax rate is closer to twenty percent. They save that dollar now they get to keep damn near eighty cents. Hell some companies, like say, GE, with an effective tax rate of less than three percent over the last decade, get to keep damn near the WHOLE DOLLAR. Now, it's one thing to close down a factory, layoff workers, implement a transpacific shipping arrangement, lose community and employee allegiance, and adopt a far flung supply chain to manage, if you only get to keep fifty cents on the dollar. It is quite another if you get to keep it all.

I mean I don't know where you people live, and I don't know where you work, but if you are looking it is damn easy to see the ramifications of this declining effective corporate tax rate. No companies invest in their people anymore, they attempt to steal them from somewhere else or they bitch and moan and look to the GOVERNMENT to fund their employees training, at say a community college. Sneak in to the backroom of your local Walmart. Check out the mops. Yeah, the damn mops. They are filled with grease, nasty as hell, because they can't even invest in a new mop-head. It's freakin comical. Companies look to cut corners at every turn, packaging sucks ass. The trucking fleets are comprised of dinosaurs that spew out toxic gases, break down constantly, and require an entire staff of mechanics to keep them going. Farmers don't own combines anymore, they RENT THEM.

In a nutshell, when corporate taxes are high companies are forced to look and plan for the long term. When they are low, they are encouraged to "cash out", to seek short term gains at the expense of long term growth. They are discouraged from investing in everything from people to mop-heads, and instead encouraged to take the money and run. Look the fawk around. It is precisely what is happening, precisely what has been happening, and cutting corporate tax rates further will only add gasoline to the fire that is already burning down this nation. Only a sheer fool would believe otherwise.

Now, you want to tell me why corporations will create more jobs when the cost of doing so increases as the tax rate declines.

Exactly!
Why add new jobs which create 80 cents in profit when they could add jobs which only create 65 cents in profit?

Wait....what?

Farmers don't own combines anymore, they RENT THEM.

Why lay out a ton of capital that the IRS makes you depreciate over 10 years when you can rent and write off your entire outlay immediately?

Oh, wait, did I just ruin your point?

Oh but the beauty of a simple mind. First, have you ever heard the old saying, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush? Those jobs that are created for those "potential" profits, they are the bird in the bush. The dollar that has already been made is the bird in the hand. You are ignoring RISK, and that is why you are being simple minded. And as the tax rate goes down RISK goes up. Remember, opportunity cost--the opportunity cost of a dollar in a new job is sixty five cents when the tax rate is 35%. It is eighty cents when the tax rate is 20%. So the cost of failure, the cost of that job not being profitable is HIGHER when the tax rate is lower.

That is why you conservatives are so ignorant. You believe companies are sitting on all that cash because they don't want to make sixty five cents in profit. If they could make eighty cents in profit they would be investing that money. It's freaking STUPID. Hell, if a company can make ten cents in profit they are going to do it.

The example I use is a poker game. The higher the rake the more aggressive you are going to play. Hell, if you are playing at one of those charity events where the rake is one hundred percent you are going to play loose as a goose. But, if you can KEEP MORE OF YOUR WINNINGS, well you are going to be pretty conservative with your bets, at least if you have any damn sense. Don't you think corporations would act precisely the same way?

And I got news for you. Farmers can take what is called a 179 deduction of over half a million dollars for the purchase of equipment. That covers a pretty nice combine. If their tax rate is forty percent, well that half million dollar deduction is worth two hundred grand. When the tax rate is twenty percent it is only worth a hundred grand. So that combine costs more when taxes are LOWER. That means it takes more acres to justify the purchase when tax rates are low. And corporations face that same situation. Even with depreciation, the depreciation is worth less when tax rates are low. Risk premiums are HIGHER when tax rates are lower.

To me, this is all common sense. But perhaps I have been dealing with this sort of thing for so long it has become second nature. Do yourself a favor and do some research. When the corporate tax rate has been cut in the past it resulted in an immediate drop in GDP growth. Hell, we are slogging along now at less than four percent a year. Back in the 50's and 60's, when corporate tax rates were higher and corporate taxes accounted for one in every four dollars of the federal government's income, we consistently saw double digit GDP growth. Now, when those corporate taxes don't even account for one in ten, well we are just barely going forward. That's because the CONSUMERS are footing most of the federal budget now, they have less money for, wait for it, DEMAND. Say's Law is dead. Keynes is back. Demand is what drives our economy, not supply.

 

[nat4900]

That's because the CONSUMERS are footing most of the federal budget now, they have less money for, wait for it, DEMAND. Say's Law is dead. Keynes is back. Demand is what drives our economy, not supply.

Well, UNLESS you're the brain trust of a Rick Perry who, in Trump's eternal "wisdom," appointed Perry as Energy Sec........
Here's the gem from Perry (LOL

"Here's a little economics lesson: supply and demand. You put the supply out there and the demand will follow,"

 

[basquebromance]

Libs in the bubble don’t get it but talk to any blue collar worker in a midwestern town and he’ll tell you a tax hike on people earning five figures to finance a tax cut for multinational corporations is *exactly* why he put Trump in the White House.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Well, Trump and the GOP lied again when they said that the tax cuts would not add to the deficit, which even they now admit that it will add another 1 1/2 trillion dollars to it. But, if Trump and the GOP were to tell the truth about anything, THAT would be newsworthy.

 

[basquebromance]

Do you know what happens when you lower the corporate tax? Corporations have more money. They can hire more people, they can innovate, they can do things that are impossible when they are shackled by regulations and government.

 

[Winston]

the Gop plans to run on this as Trump's big accomplishment, but anyone who does not base opinions on preconceived notions and partisan bs knows this is pig, and it's a cut giving the very rich YUUUGE breaks and workers ... crumbs, and in some cases higher taxes. It seems to me that the gop is cutting its own throat, but many gop congress critters are owned by the rich, just as dems have their SJW. Trump is toxic and this should not play well in suburban districts.

The "best" way to summarize why this plan is a PIG, is the fact that the tax plan REVERTS the tax breaks for the middle class within a short term, while giving the tax breaks to corporations in PERPETUITY.

The Bush tax cuts were the same way. They were made permanent though. Maybe if the dems would stop being obstructionists we could get real tax reform. I would like to see them bring back Simson/Bowles plan.

Hell yeah, Simpson Bowles. No corporate tax cut. Incomes over $250,000 go back to pre-Bush tax rates, capital gains taxed as ordinary income, social security taxes on ninety percent of income with NO CAP, mortgage interest deduction and charitable gift deductions becomes a non-refundable 12% tax credit, gas tax of fifteen cents on the gallon. Hell yeah, sign me up.

 

[Spare_change]

So, you agree you are bitching about absolutely nothing, according to YOUR OP?

WOW, that is a "brilliant" conclusion.....

Fuck head name ONE loop hole for corporations that has been eliminated by your bribed republicans......GO ON, name one or two......LOL

Non the loopholes have been eliminated ---- YET. Obviously, the law hasn't been passed ... YET.

However, several loopholes are targeted ... \

1) Last In - First Out Accountring Tax Savings
2) Accelerated depreciation of equipment and machinery
3) Punitive damage deduction
4) Carried Interest deduction
5) Eliminate transfer pricing

I suggest you read https://files.taxfoundation.org/legacy/docs/sr184.pdf , so that you have some modicum of an iota of a minute idea of what you're talking about.

 

[nat4900]

I suggest you read https://files.taxfoundation.org/legacy/docs/sr184.pdf , so that you have some modicum of an iota of a minute idea of what you're talking about.

Asshole, you're citing something from SEVEN years ago???.....LOL

 

[sakinago]

The mantra (probably actually started by large corporations themselves) has long been that the U.S. tax code imposes the "biggest" tax burden in the world on corporations.......prompting the need to lower it from 35% to 20%......

On the surface (and for ignorant voters) that sounds like a legitimate gripe.....BUT IT'S A SCAM.

No one can really name a dozen or so corporations that actually DO pay the 35%, and that given all the loopholes ALSO included in our tax code, most corporation actually pay closer to 14% or even 0% in taxes.

So, can ANY proponents of this "new" tax proposal name what corporate "loop holes" have been eliminated from our current code???

I wouldn’t call it a scam. It is a shitty tax plan. It also raises taxes on the wealthy...and when anyone brings up a flat tax the left also cries that it’s tax cuts for the wealthy (even though if we’d make it no one pays taxes on the first 50,000, leaving an even larger majority of underpaid Americans not paying taxes) the left calls foul...in this case the left should be clapping a GOP controlled house senate and whitehouse and they still got a tax increase....Shame on the GOP, only giving real cuts to corps, and shame on the left for having zero principles and sticking even less to the interest they claim to hold.

But according to the left, the USG deserves every dime we got and more, even though they made 1 trillion dollars in erroneous payments in one year. That’s not including government waste on incredibly stupid stuff, that’s just payments that should have never been made. 1/3 of tax revenue, and 5% of the entire nations GDP...and the left still maintains we can’t make tax cuts....y’all are even bigger frauds.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Great News. My company paid for my relocation. Happy now?

But will your "company" continue paying for your stay at the mental institution? LOL

If lowering taxes makes it cheaper for the corporation to stay where they are, as opposed to going to another State or nation that would be more expensive, what reason would that company have to leave? Do you have a clear answer for that Nat?

Come on, tell us what job is created by raising Federal taxes?

Employee salaries are a business expense. Say the corporation has a dollar in profit. If they want, they can spend that dollar on creating a new job. If not, well they can pay the tax on that dollar and keep the rest. The tax rate is thirty five percent. That means they can spend a dollar on a new job or keep sixty five cents. Now the tax rate is lowered. They can spend the dollar on a new job or they can keep eighty cents. The "opportunity cost" of creating a job instead of booking a profit INCREASES as the tax rate declines. Now, you want to tell me why corporations will create more jobs when the cost of doing so increases as the tax rate declines.

I mean this is some simple ass shit. Like the decline of our manufacturing base. Everyone wants to blame outsourcing, shifting jobs overseas. But it is not the "cause", it is just a symptom. The declining tax rate is the cause. In the early1950's the "effective corporate tax rate" was north of fifty percent. That means if a company saved a dollar by shifting production abroad they could only keep a little less than fifty cents. Now the EFFECTIVE corporate tax rate is closer to twenty percent. They save that dollar now they get to keep damn near eighty cents. Hell some companies, like say, GE, with an effective tax rate of less than three percent over the last decade, get to keep damn near the WHOLE DOLLAR. Now, it's one thing to close down a factory, layoff workers, implement a transpacific shipping arrangement, lose community and employee allegiance, and adopt a far flung supply chain to manage, if you only get to keep fifty cents on the dollar. It is quite another if you get to keep it all.

I mean I don't know where you people live, and I don't know where you work, but if you are looking it is damn easy to see the ramifications of this declining effective corporate tax rate. No companies invest in their people anymore, they attempt to steal them from somewhere else or they bitch and moan and look to the GOVERNMENT to fund their employees training, at say a community college. Sneak in to the backroom of your local Walmart. Check out the mops. Yeah, the damn mops. They are filled with grease, nasty as hell, because they can't even invest in a new mop-head. It's freakin comical. Companies look to cut corners at every turn, packaging sucks ass. The trucking fleets are comprised of dinosaurs that spew out toxic gases, break down constantly, and require an entire staff of mechanics to keep them going. Farmers don't own combines anymore, they RENT THEM.

In a nutshell, when corporate taxes are high companies are forced to look and plan for the long term. When they are low, they are encouraged to "cash out", to seek short term gains at the expense of long term growth. They are discouraged from investing in everything from people to mop-heads, and instead encouraged to take the money and run. Look the fawk around. It is precisely what is happening, precisely what has been happening, and cutting corporate tax rates further will only add gasoline to the fire that is already burning down this nation. Only a sheer fool would believe otherwise.

Now, you want to tell me why corporations will create more jobs when the cost of doing so increases as the tax rate declines.

Exactly!
Why add new jobs which create 80 cents in profit when they could add jobs which only create 65 cents in profit?

Wait....what?

Farmers don't own combines anymore, they RENT THEM.

Why lay out a ton of capital that the IRS makes you depreciate over 10 years when you can rent and write off your entire outlay immediately?

Oh, wait, did I just ruin your point?

Oh but the beauty of a simple mind. First, have you ever heard the old saying, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush? Those jobs that are created for those "potential" profits, they are the bird in the bush. The dollar that has already been made is the bird in the hand. You are ignoring RISK, and that is why you are being simple minded. And as the tax rate goes down RISK goes up. Remember, opportunity cost--the opportunity cost of a dollar in a new job is sixty five cents when the tax rate is 35%. It is eighty cents when the tax rate is 20%. So the cost of failure, the cost of that job not being profitable is HIGHER when the tax rate is lower.

That is why you conservatives are so ignorant. You believe companies are sitting on all that cash because they don't want to make sixty five cents in profit. If they could make eighty cents in profit they would be investing that money. It's freaking STUPID. Hell, if a company can make ten cents in profit they are going to do it.

The example I use is a poker game. The higher the rake the more aggressive you are going to play. Hell, if you are playing at one of those charity events where the rake is one hundred percent you are going to play loose as a goose. But, if you can KEEP MORE OF YOUR WINNINGS, well you are going to be pretty conservative with your bets, at least if you have any damn sense. Don't you think corporations would act precisely the same way?

And I got news for you. Farmers can take what is called a 179 deduction of over half a million dollars for the purchase of equipment. That covers a pretty nice combine. If their tax rate is forty percent, well that half million dollar deduction is worth two hundred grand. When the tax rate is twenty percent it is only worth a hundred grand. So that combine costs more when taxes are LOWER. That means it takes more acres to justify the purchase when tax rates are low. And corporations face that same situation. Even with depreciation, the depreciation is worth less when tax rates are low. Risk premiums are HIGHER when tax rates are lower.

To me, this is all common sense. But perhaps I have been dealing with this sort of thing for so long it has become second nature. Do yourself a favor and do some research. When the corporate tax rate has been cut in the past it resulted in an immediate drop in GDP growth. Hell, we are slogging along now at less than four percent a year. Back in the 50's and 60's, when corporate tax rates were higher and corporate taxes accounted for one in every four dollars of the federal government's income, we consistently saw double digit GDP growth. Now, when those corporate taxes don't even account for one in ten, well we are just barely going forward. That's because the CONSUMERS are footing most of the federal budget now, they have less money for, wait for it, DEMAND. Say's Law is dead. Keynes is back. Demand is what drives our economy, not supply.

Those jobs that are created for those "potential" profits, they are the bird in the bush. The dollar that has already been made is the bird in the hand.

Investment is more likely with a higher potential payoff.

So the cost of failure, the cost of that job not being profitable is HIGHER when the tax rate is lower.

Oddly enough, the reward of success is HIGHER when the tax rate is lower.


The example I use is a poker game. The higher the rake the more aggressive you are going to play.

Poker game? I like it.
You can play for a $650,000 jackpot or an $800,000 jackpot, which table do you choose?

And I got news for you. Farmers can take what is called a 179 deduction of over half a million dollars for the purchase of equipment. That covers a pretty nice combine. If their tax rate is forty percent, well that half million dollar deduction is worth two hundred grand.

179 deduction? Sounds nifty!!
Could be useful for all US businesses, don't you think?
I hear the Republican tax bill is going to include immediate expensing.
I'm glad you favor that provision.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

the Gop plans to run on this as Trump's big accomplishment, but anyone who does not base opinions on preconceived notions and partisan bs knows this is pig, and it's a cut giving the very rich YUUUGE breaks and workers ... crumbs, and in some cases higher taxes. It seems to me that the gop is cutting its own throat, but many gop congress critters are owned by the rich, just as dems have their SJW. Trump is toxic and this should not play well in suburban districts.

The "best" way to summarize why this plan is a PIG, is the fact that the tax plan REVERTS the tax breaks for the middle class within a short term, while giving the tax breaks to corporations in PERPETUITY.

The Bush tax cuts were the same way. They were made permanent though. Maybe if the dems would stop being obstructionists we could get real tax reform. I would like to see them bring back Simson/Bowles plan.

Hell yeah, Simpson Bowles. No corporate tax cut. Incomes over $250,000 go back to pre-Bush tax rates, capital gains taxed as ordinary income, social security taxes on ninety percent of income with NO CAP, mortgage interest deduction and charitable gift deductions becomes a non-refundable 12% tax credit, gas tax of fifteen cents on the gallon. Hell yeah, sign me up.

Incomes over $250,000 go back to pre-Bush tax rates,

Sounds like a plan!!!
Before Bush broke his no new taxes pledge, the top rate was 28%.
Git 'er done!!!

 

[Spare_change]

I suggest you read https://files.taxfoundation.org/legacy/docs/sr184.pdf , so that you have some modicum of an iota of a minute idea of what you're talking about.

Asshole, you're citing something from SEVEN years ago???.....LOL

LOL --- dumb ass.

You asked what loopholes were under consideration - I gave you five - thus, putting to the lie your claim that nobody was even addressing corporate loopholes. Your ignorance was palpable.

The cite is a tutorial on corporate loopholes (all of which still exist today) - a band-aid for your stupidity, if you will. It has nothing to do with the current tax proposal. It was there so you could see just exactly how stupid you sound.

 

[Winston]

But will your "company" continue paying for your stay at the mental institution? LOL

If lowering taxes makes it cheaper for the corporation to stay where they are, as opposed to going to another State or nation that would be more expensive, what reason would that company have to leave? Do you have a clear answer for that Nat?

Come on, tell us what job is created by raising Federal taxes?

Employee salaries are a business expense. Say the corporation has a dollar in profit. If they want, they can spend that dollar on creating a new job. If not, well they can pay the tax on that dollar and keep the rest. The tax rate is thirty five percent. That means they can spend a dollar on a new job or keep sixty five cents. Now the tax rate is lowered. They can spend the dollar on a new job or they can keep eighty cents. The "opportunity cost" of creating a job instead of booking a profit INCREASES as the tax rate declines. Now, you want to tell me why corporations will create more jobs when the cost of doing so increases as the tax rate declines.

I mean this is some simple ass shit. Like the decline of our manufacturing base. Everyone wants to blame outsourcing, shifting jobs overseas. But it is not the "cause", it is just a symptom. The declining tax rate is the cause. In the early1950's the "effective corporate tax rate" was north of fifty percent. That means if a company saved a dollar by shifting production abroad they could only keep a little less than fifty cents. Now the EFFECTIVE corporate tax rate is closer to twenty percent. They save that dollar now they get to keep damn near eighty cents. Hell some companies, like say, GE, with an effective tax rate of less than three percent over the last decade, get to keep damn near the WHOLE DOLLAR. Now, it's one thing to close down a factory, layoff workers, implement a transpacific shipping arrangement, lose community and employee allegiance, and adopt a far flung supply chain to manage, if you only get to keep fifty cents on the dollar. It is quite another if you get to keep it all.

I mean I don't know where you people live, and I don't know where you work, but if you are looking it is damn easy to see the ramifications of this declining effective corporate tax rate. No companies invest in their people anymore, they attempt to steal them from somewhere else or they bitch and moan and look to the GOVERNMENT to fund their employees training, at say a community college. Sneak in to the backroom of your local Walmart. Check out the mops. Yeah, the damn mops. They are filled with grease, nasty as hell, because they can't even invest in a new mop-head. It's freakin comical. Companies look to cut corners at every turn, packaging sucks ass. The trucking fleets are comprised of dinosaurs that spew out toxic gases, break down constantly, and require an entire staff of mechanics to keep them going. Farmers don't own combines anymore, they RENT THEM.

In a nutshell, when corporate taxes are high companies are forced to look and plan for the long term. When they are low, they are encouraged to "cash out", to seek short term gains at the expense of long term growth. They are discouraged from investing in everything from people to mop-heads, and instead encouraged to take the money and run. Look the fawk around. It is precisely what is happening, precisely what has been happening, and cutting corporate tax rates further will only add gasoline to the fire that is already burning down this nation. Only a sheer fool would believe otherwise.

Now, you want to tell me why corporations will create more jobs when the cost of doing so increases as the tax rate declines.

Exactly!
Why add new jobs which create 80 cents in profit when they could add jobs which only create 65 cents in profit?

Wait....what?

Farmers don't own combines anymore, they RENT THEM.

Why lay out a ton of capital that the IRS makes you depreciate over 10 years when you can rent and write off your entire outlay immediately?

Oh, wait, did I just ruin your point?

Oh but the beauty of a simple mind. First, have you ever heard the old saying, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush? Those jobs that are created for those "potential" profits, they are the bird in the bush. The dollar that has already been made is the bird in the hand. You are ignoring RISK, and that is why you are being simple minded. And as the tax rate goes down RISK goes up. Remember, opportunity cost--the opportunity cost of a dollar in a new job is sixty five cents when the tax rate is 35%. It is eighty cents when the tax rate is 20%. So the cost of failure, the cost of that job not being profitable is HIGHER when the tax rate is lower.

That is why you conservatives are so ignorant. You believe companies are sitting on all that cash because they don't want to make sixty five cents in profit. If they could make eighty cents in profit they would be investing that money. It's freaking STUPID. Hell, if a company can make ten cents in profit they are going to do it.

The example I use is a poker game. The higher the rake the more aggressive you are going to play. Hell, if you are playing at one of those charity events where the rake is one hundred percent you are going to play loose as a goose. But, if you can KEEP MORE OF YOUR WINNINGS, well you are going to be pretty conservative with your bets, at least if you have any damn sense. Don't you think corporations would act precisely the same way?

And I got news for you. Farmers can take what is called a 179 deduction of over half a million dollars for the purchase of equipment. That covers a pretty nice combine. If their tax rate is forty percent, well that half million dollar deduction is worth two hundred grand. When the tax rate is twenty percent it is only worth a hundred grand. So that combine costs more when taxes are LOWER. That means it takes more acres to justify the purchase when tax rates are low. And corporations face that same situation. Even with depreciation, the depreciation is worth less when tax rates are low. Risk premiums are HIGHER when tax rates are lower.

To me, this is all common sense. But perhaps I have been dealing with this sort of thing for so long it has become second nature. Do yourself a favor and do some research. When the corporate tax rate has been cut in the past it resulted in an immediate drop in GDP growth. Hell, we are slogging along now at less than four percent a year. Back in the 50's and 60's, when corporate tax rates were higher and corporate taxes accounted for one in every four dollars of the federal government's income, we consistently saw double digit GDP growth. Now, when those corporate taxes don't even account for one in ten, well we are just barely going forward. That's because the CONSUMERS are footing most of the federal budget now, they have less money for, wait for it, DEMAND. Say's Law is dead. Keynes is back. Demand is what drives our economy, not supply.

Those jobs that are created for those "potential" profits, they are the bird in the bush. The dollar that has already been made is the bird in the hand.

Investment is more likely with a higher potential payoff.

So the cost of failure, the cost of that job not being profitable is HIGHER when the tax rate is lower.

Oddly enough, the reward of success is HIGHER when the tax rate is lower.


The example I use is a poker game. The higher the rake the more aggressive you are going to play.

Poker game? I like it.
You can play for a $650,000 jackpot or an $800,000 jackpot, which table do you choose?

And I got news for you. Farmers can take what is called a 179 deduction of over half a million dollars for the purchase of equipment. That covers a pretty nice combine. If their tax rate is forty percent, well that half million dollar deduction is worth two hundred grand.

179 deduction? Sounds nifty!!
Could be useful for all US businesses, don't you think?
I hear the Republican tax bill is going to include immediate expensing.
I'm glad you favor that provision.

The above post demonstrates your inability to comprehend risk. By what appears to be your judgement, all your retirement should be in futures, not stocks. Afterall, the return could be much higher.

 

[Winston]

the Gop plans to run on this as Trump's big accomplishment, but anyone who does not base opinions on preconceived notions and partisan bs knows this is pig, and it's a cut giving the very rich YUUUGE breaks and workers ... crumbs, and in some cases higher taxes. It seems to me that the gop is cutting its own throat, but many gop congress critters are owned by the rich, just as dems have their SJW. Trump is toxic and this should not play well in suburban districts.

The "best" way to summarize why this plan is a PIG, is the fact that the tax plan REVERTS the tax breaks for the middle class within a short term, while giving the tax breaks to corporations in PERPETUITY.

The Bush tax cuts were the same way. They were made permanent though. Maybe if the dems would stop being obstructionists we could get real tax reform. I would like to see them bring back Simson/Bowles plan.

Hell yeah, Simpson Bowles. No corporate tax cut. Incomes over $250,000 go back to pre-Bush tax rates, capital gains taxed as ordinary income, social security taxes on ninety percent of income with NO CAP, mortgage interest deduction and charitable gift deductions becomes a non-refundable 12% tax credit, gas tax of fifteen cents on the gallon. Hell yeah, sign me up.

Incomes over $250,000 go back to pre-Bush tax rates,

Sounds like a plan!!!
Before Bush broke his no new taxes pledge, the top rate was 28%.
Git 'er done!!!

Wrong Bush hoss.

 

[nat4900]

You asked what loopholes were under consideration - I gave you five

Keep that bent over stance waiting for your GOP morons to "consider" eliminating those loopholes........LOL