Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

[Grumblenuts]

 

[ding]

RE: All The News Anti-Palestinian Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss
⁜→ BreezeWood, et al,

BLUF: Before I get into my comment, I want you to know that I acknowledge (upfront) that I know of no ancient text called the desert religions bible's. Desert religions are not unique to the Middle East North African Region.

I would like to share the following excerpt:

​

​

Many biblical books evidently were the product of a long, complex literary process involving numerous authors, editors, and copyists through several generations and even centuries. Among the biblical scrolls from the Judean desert, variant literary editions are most evident for Exodus, Numbers, Joshua, Jeremiah, and Psalms. The sheer variety of textual forms exhibited among the biblical DSS (Dead Sea Scrolls) suggests that the Essenes at Qumran—and likely other Jewish groups in the Second Temple period — did not assign sacred status or authority to only one textual form of certain scriptural books, but to the book or tradition as such.​

​

There are more than a half-dozen key codices that are extremely important in terms of biblical archeology. But again, I think most would agree that the Leningrad Codex, Aleppo Codex, and the Dead Sea Scrolls were used by the Masoretes to compose what many consider to be the oldest version of the Bible. In the regard, monotheistic faiths of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam constitute the three oldest surviving major "Desert Religions" --- there were still older "oral traditions." And these oral traditions were passed down from one tribe to the next and eventually became the backbone of the faith in the God of Moses (Yahweh).

Note
________________________________
I think that many would agree that official rabbinic canon (three parts of the Tanak) are significant: the Law (Torah), the Prophets (Nevi’im), and the Writings (Ketubim).

When I think of the Religions of Antiquity, I'm thinking of a time Neolithic Age and early Bronze Age.

.roc, is there a name for the religion referred to in the desert religions bible's - other than their particular ascribed names. they have construed into their own brand.

(COMMENT)

My understanding is that the Hebrew/Jewish People preserve the writings known as the Chumash (AKA: Pentateuch) which must be well over 2500 to 3000 years old. I think these scrolls constitute the Five Books of Moses. And when I think of the Abrahamic (Desert) Religions (Hebrew/Judaism coming before the others) I think of a time when oral traditions. There are a few "desert tribes" that still practice (almost exclusively) on oral traditions.

Most Respectfully,
R

Do you believe that the account of Genesis, specifically the first eleven chapters and the accounts of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were unknown until Moses recorded them?

Or do you believe these were accounts that had been passed down orally for thousands of years from generation to generation and were common knowledge so to speak?

Neither and both. See 2 Timothy 3:16.

I don’t believe that is possible.

 

[Grumblenuts]

 

[Grumblenuts]

 

[Grumblenuts]

Jefferson's Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom
(Freedom From Religion)

I. Whereas Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishment or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was his Almighty power to do . . .

The second paragraph is the act itself, which states that no person can be compelled to attend any church or support it with his taxes. It says that an individual is free to worship as he pleases with no discrimination.

II. Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

The third paragraph reflects Jefferson's belief in the people's right, through their elected assemblies, to change any law. Here, Jefferson states that this statute is not irrevocable because no law is (not even the Constitution). Future assemblies that choose to repeal or circumscribe the act do so at their own peril, because this is "an infringement of natural right." Thus, Jefferson articulates his philosophy of both natural right and the sovereignty of the people.

No more tax breaks for you!

 

[ding]

That's quite a leap from "tax breaks" to funding with taxes.

You do have a sense of humor.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Say you work or perhaps own a business and must pay taxes (real estate, income, SS, Medicare, etc) like the vast majority do. Now explain how you aren't paying more to support those getting tax breaks? And how that's supposed to be funny? Say some super rich asshole starts a foundation, sticks their money in there along with other rich people's, then spends it building new wings on some Ivy League college dorms, helping the local symphony orchestra, and buying new uniforms for some baseball teams. Supposedly due to "charity" they avoid paying taxes coming and going, plus get to spend the money that would normally have gone to state coffers pretty much as they please including self-advertising like crazy. Yeah, having our billionaires and major religious establishments making tons of big decisions for us on our dime every day is hilarious. Democracy at its finest.

 

[Meriweather]

Perhaps the world is going to shit because most Christians are horrible people.

Or, could it be that some have unreasonable expectations of Christians? Do you believe Christians should all band together and save the world? First, that mission appears to have been assigned to the Jews. Second, Jesus had a very narrow mission--that of teaching people how to get along with those closest to them--not how to forsake family and neighbors, then form an army, and set out to get along with nations half-way across the planet whether that nation wants us or not. Jesus taught how to get along with those closest to us (including God, who should be closest of all). Christian teaching is, "What can I do for you, you who are at my door, you who I meet on the way to work, you who are a colleague at work, or you who are a client?"

Jesus taught and lived interpersonal relationships, and pretty much eschewed the teaching of international relationships. His hope, of course, that people learning to live and love on a small scale would spread this way on a larger scale--but again with interpersonal relationships, not international.

I used to think that if we all worked on our interpersonal relationships, our international relationships would automatically fall into place. I am not sure that is possible because one big hurdle (as has always been) is still in place. Service cannot be to both God and Mammon, and there are too many in power who seek power and mammon over God. Every time. So we individual Christians (and Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc) have a very tough row to hoe.

That being the case, why don't you atheists take on the Mammon part of our leaders since you have already knocked God out of the picture. Surely Mammon will be a piece of cake for you if God is out of the way.

And a hug as well as a wink!

 

[Meriweather]

I'm a bad Catholic.

No you are not. Like the rest of us, you are a practicing Catholic, and none of the living can claim true goodness. We all have our faults, but we all have our good points as well--stemming from that divine spark within.

 

[Meriweather]

That is not what being born again is about. And that is not the position of any born-again believer I've ever known, myself included.

No one can pull the wool over God's eyes, as I'm sure you would agree. It's not about saying a quick little prayer then going about one's life in the same way. One has to understand their true spiritual condition, and then a genuine change of mind and heart must take place. That is what repentance is, the word repent literally means to change one's mind.

God knows our hearts.

Yes, I was clumsy. The differences I was trying to highlight is that Catholics observe the Sacraments, weekly attendance at Mass, etc., which often gets us criticized from the opposite direction that we are trying to "earn" our way into heaven. Rather, I see it as what assists in keeping me on track. Other denominations have a moment where they accept Jesus as Savior and it appears that is all they need to stay on track. I did not intend to imply that they spoke a few words and with no intent to follow Christ's teachings; I meant they said a few words and that is all the impetus they need to start following (and to say with) Christ's teachings.

I was trying to say that it has been essential for me to have, well the guard-rails you might say, to remind me of where I am going, who and where I am supposed to be, and what I should be doing.

I was noting that it seems to me, many atheists have that same thought--that they do not need to be constantly reminded of what they are (or should be) about. Perhaps Catholicism is for those of us who are easily distracted.

 

[BreezeWood]

But the religious are so put upon.

Not what I am saying. I had my politics bonnet on, and politically I have quite a few Libertarian leanings. My motto in regards to government is Less is Best. Also, I think the Federal government should be focused only on what is best for the country: Protection, Trade, Transportation. States can be the hub for what towns and counties need from a Federal government. Towns can handle local matters (especially schools), and people can help people. Religion is on its own.

Anyway, sorry to have gotten you into this. I'll never be a fan of big government no matter how much anyone favors it, and that is nothing I care to be reasonable about--and I won't be.

Anyway, sorry to have gotten you into this. I'll never be a fan of big government no matter how much anyone favors it, and that is nothing I care to be reasonable about--and I won't be.

.
can't get enough big religion though, funny that.

clue, secularism is universal one size fits all.

Secular humanism is evil in sheep’s clothing.

Secular humanism is evil in sheep’s clothing.

.
gee, why be specific when you can drop an anvil ...

the religion of antiquity is secular, pertaining to all beings necessary for their spiritual admission to the Everlasting.

Actually, socialism (aka secular humanism) tries to mimic Christianity except socialism replaces God with the deification of man. It is no accident that all of communism's rhetorical vows revolve around Man (with a capital M) and his earthly happiness.

Actually, socialism (aka secular humanism) tries to mimic Christianity ...

.
you are a very confused person - no one tries to mimic a need for a fairytale messiah or to live their lives guided by a script of forgeries and fallacies purposefully written to please their personal world view - bing.

your deliberate association of secular with socialism is nothing more than an unwarranted fear for both.

the 1st century was in fact more a secular statement by the religious itinerant than a religious one only to be dragged through religious muck that occurred during the 4th century - christianity.

 

[BreezeWood]

I think it's hilarious that the born agains say the catholics got it all wrong but the catholics say the born agains got it all wrong.

I say they are both wrong. So technically I agree with both of them.

More accurately it is Born Again believe and practice something different from what Catholics believe and practice. Technically, you fit right in. You have your beliefs and you practice those.

I am wondering if it isn't you and the Born Again who are closest to each other. For example, you do not need anything. The Born Again simply need an instant to declare a belief and they, too, are set.

In order to have made something of my life, I needed a hand, the Sacraments, the Beatitudes, and even many of the parables, and I needed to learn and practice incorporating these concepts into my life. I am amazed that some people can get through this life all on their own, or have things fixed in an instant. Still, I cannot complain. I may have been fated to take the hard way, but I do think it has been worth it.

That is not what being born again is about. And that is not the position of any born-again believer I've ever known, myself included.

No one can pull the wool over God's eyes, as I'm sure you would agree. It's not about saying a quick little prayer then going about one's life in the same way. One has to understand their true spiritual condition, and then a genuine change of mind and heart must take place. That is what repentance is, the word repent literally means to change one's mind.

God knows our hearts. Just because someone says a quick little prayer doesn't necessarily mean they are born again. It has to be real, and when it is real, being born again (justification) DOES happen in an instant. But that's not all there is! That's just the beginning, just the birth. If a person is truly born again, then they will grow spiritually, they will be on a journey that lasts a lifetime. Sanctification is ongoing.

One way to know if a person is truly born-again is to see true change and transformation in their life. If a person says a quick prayer and thinks they're good to go, but there is no change in their life, no change in their nature… then it was probably empty. The Bible is clear that when we come to Christ, we become a new creation.

This might be a controversial thing to say, but if someone says they're a Christian but acts just like everyone else in the world, and is interested in worldly things, then they should probably think about their true spiritual condition.

It has to be real, and when it is real, being born again (justification) DOES happen in an instant. But that's not all there is! That's just the beginning, just the birth. If a person is truly born again, then they will grow spiritually, they will be on a journey that lasts a lifetime. Sanctification is ongoing.

.
the reversal and compensation for a sin is repentance, being born again is to never sin again.

a primary fallacy of christianity, being born a (hopeless) sinner.

 

[sealybobo]

Sorry but born agains muslims and Mormons are theists so closer to you. Please don’t try to pass them off onto our side. Lol

Beliefs and practices among people who profess to be of the exact same denomination are still as diverse as window coverings, even when those windows are the exact same dimensions. And, no, I am not talking about cherry picking, I am noting that people fasten onto different aspects and aspirations. We are each very unique. We may all have the same kinds of bones, but our outward appearances are quite different.

You don’t find it strange that so many people have so many different takes on one book? So much disagreement. So much contradiction. Confusion. Distortion, spin, versions, interpretation, corruption through the dark ages....

You want me to accept any organized religion I was born into as being real yet you know all the other religions were just a group of ignorant farmers who happened to accept one preachers word that they must split off and start a new denomination. You know that new denomination is bs or you would agree and join them.

So you know lying preachers in the past manipulated Christianity with a new twist you know isn’t real and got thousands of people to believe those lies.

So maybe the original story is a lie. I know the story is beautiful to you and you believe it but it doesn’t move me. That doesn’t make me a bad person. I’m still open to a god being real. Just don’t see any signs of one.

Although the jehova story is pretty cool. Have you considered becoming one?

 

[sealybobo]

But the religious are so put upon.

Not what I am saying. I had my politics bonnet on, and politically I have quite a few Libertarian leanings. My motto in regards to government is Less is Best. Also, I think the Federal government should be focused only on what is best for the country: Protection, Trade, Transportation. States can be the hub for what towns and counties need from a Federal government. Towns can handle local matters (especially schools), and people can help people. Religion is on its own.

Anyway, sorry to have gotten you into this. I'll never be a fan of big government no matter how much anyone favors it, and that is nothing I care to be reasonable about--and I won't be.

Anyway, sorry to have gotten you into this. I'll never be a fan of big government no matter how much anyone favors it, and that is nothing I care to be reasonable about--and I won't be.

.
can't get enough big religion though, funny that.

clue, secularism is universal one size fits all.

Secular humanism is evil in sheep’s clothing.

Secular humanism is evil in sheep’s clothing.

.
gee, why be specific when you can drop an anvil ...

the religion of antiquity is secular, pertaining to all beings necessary for their spiritual admission to the Everlasting.

Actually, socialism (aka secular humanism) tries to mimic Christianity except socialism replaces God with the deification of man. It is no accident that all of communism's rhetorical vows revolve around Man (with a capital M) and his earthly happiness.

Actually, socialism (aka secular humanism) tries to mimic Christianity ...

.
you are a very confused person - no one tries to mimic a need for a fairytale messiah or to live their lives guided by a script of forgeries and fallacies purposefully written to please their personal world view - bing.

your deliberate association of secular with socialism is nothing more than an unwarranted fear for both.

the 1st century was in fact more a secular statement by the religious itinerant than a religious one only to be dragged through religious muck that occurred during the 4th century - christianity.

He does expose himself as a right wing conservative when he shows his fear of socialism and secularism. Now we’re starting to see why dings got such a hard on for god. He may be like trump. A fake. It’s obvious both ding and trump are fake christians

 

[Meriweather]

You don’t find it strange that so many people have so many different takes on one book? So much disagreement. So much contradiction. Confusion. Distortion, spin, versions, interpretation, corruption through the dark ages....

No. First, people focus on different parts of the book. Second, people have a habit of seeing what they want to see. Third, people find ways of interpreting that agrees with what they already think, even if they have to find something out of context. Fourth, your own conclusions are what really matter. Finally, recognition that one's own conclusions--no matter how many agree with them--may be wrong.

I have done a lot of Bible study prompted by an experience that God absolutely IS love. So...how did the authors of the Bible get it so wrong? I was a journalism student, and in journalism, like our court system, you don't go with hearsay, you go back to the source. Going back to the source entailed going back to original languages, as much first hand history as possible, and the oldest commentaries that could be found. Then it was about understanding what kind of Bible book I was reading. There were law books, history books, poetry, psalms, adages, biographies, science, just so stories, literature, etc. There was recognizing edits and that the history was mainly written by the winner.

People don't have the time to do this, and partly, they don't have the inclination either--not when it all boils down to faith that God is love, and loving God and one's fellow man is the ideal for which to strive. All my studying of the Bible boils down to something I learned as a mere toddler, listening to my slightly older brother learn his catechism: We were made to know, love, and serve God. The end. That is why I will never make a good novelist. My rendition of Tolkien's classics is, "An evil ring was found, so a wizard had an eagle drop into a volcano. The end."

Ask people to sum up the Bible. In ancient times a Rabbi said, "Love God, love your neighbor. The rest is just commentary."

 

[BreezeWood]

But the religious are so put upon.

Not what I am saying. I had my politics bonnet on, and politically I have quite a few Libertarian leanings. My motto in regards to government is Less is Best. Also, I think the Federal government should be focused only on what is best for the country: Protection, Trade, Transportation. States can be the hub for what towns and counties need from a Federal government. Towns can handle local matters (especially schools), and people can help people. Religion is on its own.

Anyway, sorry to have gotten you into this. I'll never be a fan of big government no matter how much anyone favors it, and that is nothing I care to be reasonable about--and I won't be.

Anyway, sorry to have gotten you into this. I'll never be a fan of big government no matter how much anyone favors it, and that is nothing I care to be reasonable about--and I won't be.

.
can't get enough big religion though, funny that.

clue, secularism is universal one size fits all.

Secular humanism is evil in sheep’s clothing.

Secular humanism is evil in sheep’s clothing.

.
gee, why be specific when you can drop an anvil ...

the religion of antiquity is secular, pertaining to all beings necessary for their spiritual admission to the Everlasting.

Actually, socialism (aka secular humanism) tries to mimic Christianity except socialism replaces God with the deification of man. It is no accident that all of communism's rhetorical vows revolve around Man (with a capital M) and his earthly happiness.

Actually, socialism (aka secular humanism) tries to mimic Christianity ...

.
you are a very confused person - no one tries to mimic a need for a fairytale messiah or to live their lives guided by a script of forgeries and fallacies purposefully written to please their personal world view - bing.

your deliberate association of secular with socialism is nothing more than an unwarranted fear for both.

the 1st century was in fact more a secular statement by the religious itinerant than a religious one only to be dragged through religious muck that occurred during the 4th century - christianity.

He does expose himself as a right wing conservative when he shows his fear of socialism and secularism. Now we’re starting to see why dings got such a hard on for god. He may be like trump. A fake. It’s obvious both ding and trump are fake christians

He does expose himself as a right wing conservative when he shows his fear of socialism and secularism. Now we’re starting to see why dings got such a hard on for god. He may be like trump. A fake. It’s obvious both ding and trump are fake christians

.
what could be worse, placing oneself above Garden Earth ... for that alone they are two peas in a pod.

bing is unusually obsessed with socialism - a religious like hatred for a certain type of humanity.

 

[Meriweather]

Although the jehova story is pretty cool. Have you considered becoming one?

Jehovah Witness, you mean? No. Funny story. They are so much doom and gloom, and I'm so much optimism and cheer I was a bad influence on their young recruits. In several different towns, the older one hustled the younger one away, and in each town they must have put a hex sign on my door because I never heard from them again. Presently, I do have one older lady who occasionally visits me, but after the first time she decided I was best handled alone. She is very nice, but she does think I need to face the doom and gloom reality.

 

[Meriweather]

So maybe the original story is a lie. I know the story is beautiful to you and you believe it but it doesn’t move me. That doesn’t make me a bad person. I’m still open to a god being real. Just don’t see any signs of one.

You are not a bad person. The original story (if you are speaking of Genesis) is a fantastic piece of literature and it holds and points to a great many truths.

About the only thing that makes me want to bang my head are some interpretations of The Book of Revelation. Now that is one beautiful book that I feel has been massacred (by some) to beyond recognition. The fourth century people who argued it should not be in the Bible were on the right track. I am sure they join me in banging their heads against a brick wall and are telling the people who prevailed, "We told you so...."

 

[ding]

But the religious are so put upon.

Not what I am saying. I had my politics bonnet on, and politically I have quite a few Libertarian leanings. My motto in regards to government is Less is Best. Also, I think the Federal government should be focused only on what is best for the country: Protection, Trade, Transportation. States can be the hub for what towns and counties need from a Federal government. Towns can handle local matters (especially schools), and people can help people. Religion is on its own.

Anyway, sorry to have gotten you into this. I'll never be a fan of big government no matter how much anyone favors it, and that is nothing I care to be reasonable about--and I won't be.

Anyway, sorry to have gotten you into this. I'll never be a fan of big government no matter how much anyone favors it, and that is nothing I care to be reasonable about--and I won't be.

.
can't get enough big religion though, funny that.

clue, secularism is universal one size fits all.

Secular humanism is evil in sheep’s clothing.

Secular humanism is evil in sheep’s clothing.

.
gee, why be specific when you can drop an anvil ...

the religion of antiquity is secular, pertaining to all beings necessary for their spiritual admission to the Everlasting.

Actually, socialism (aka secular humanism) tries to mimic Christianity except socialism replaces God with the deification of man. It is no accident that all of communism's rhetorical vows revolve around Man (with a capital M) and his earthly happiness.

Actually, socialism (aka secular humanism) tries to mimic Christianity ...

.
you are a very confused person - no one tries to mimic a need for a fairytale messiah or to live their lives guided by a script of forgeries and fallacies purposefully written to please their personal world view - bing.

your deliberate association of secular with socialism is nothing more than an unwarranted fear for both.

the 1st century was in fact more a secular statement by the religious itinerant than a religious one only to be dragged through religious muck that occurred during the 4th century - christianity.

Cool story, bro.

What Socialism Owes Christianity

Today, socialism and Christianity are considered antagonistic movements. Most socialists aren’t Christian and most Christians aren’t socialist. Yet analysis reveals a striking congruence.

www.crisismagazine.com

224: SIMILARITIES BETWEEN CHRISTIANITY AND SOCIALISM

“Thank you for checking out the Zingcreed blog, the one and only Christian/Atheist site where all sorts of strange and controversial topics are aired. Like the ‘convergence’ (if a…

zingcreed.wordpress.com

Christianity versus Socialism on JSTOR

Lyman Abbott, Christianity versus Socialism, The North American Review, Vol. 148, No. 389 (Apr., 1889), pp. 447-453

www.jstor.org

https://www.nyu.edu/projects/ollman/docs/practical_christianity.php

 

[ding]

Say you work or perhaps own a business and must pay taxes (real estate, income, SS, Medicare, etc) like the vast majority do. Now explain how you aren't paying more to support those getting tax breaks? And how that's supposed to be funny? Say some super rich asshole starts a foundation, sticks their money in there along with other rich people's, then spends it building new wings on some Ivy League college dorms, helping the local symphony orchestra, and buying new uniforms for some baseball teams. Supposedly due to "charity" they avoid paying taxes coming and going, plus get to spend the money that would normally have gone to state coffers pretty much as they please including self-advertising like crazy. Yeah, having our billionaires and major religious establishments making tons of big decisions for us on our dime every day is hilarious. Democracy at its finest.

The Church doesn't receive tax payer funds. You are trying very hard to make it seem like they do. I find it funny that you feel the need to do so. Where's your sense of humor?