Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

[Grumblenuts]

The brain on dung.

 

[buttercup]

I think it's hilarious that the born agains say the catholics got it all wrong but the catholics say the born agains got it all wrong.

I say they are both wrong. So technically I agree with both of them.

More accurately it is Born Again believe and practice something different from what Catholics believe and practice. Technically, you fit right in. You have your beliefs and you practice those.

I am wondering if it isn't you and the Born Again who are closest to each other. For example, you do not need anything. The Born Again simply need an instant to declare a belief and they, too, are set.

In order to have made something of my life, I needed a hand, the Sacraments, the Beatitudes, and even many of the parables, and I needed to learn and practice incorporating these concepts into my life. I am amazed that some people can get through this life all on their own, or have things fixed in an instant. Still, I cannot complain. I may have been fated to take the hard way, but I do think it has been worth it.

That is not what being born again is about. And that is not the position of any born-again believer I've ever known, myself included.

No one can pull the wool over God's eyes, as I'm sure you would agree. It's not about saying a quick little prayer then going about one's life in the same way. One has to understand their true spiritual condition, and then a genuine change of mind and heart must take place. That is what repentance is, the word repent literally means to change one's mind.

God knows our hearts. Just because someone says a quick little prayer doesn't necessarily mean they are born again. It has to be real, and when it is real, being born again (justification) DOES happen in an instant. But that's not all there is! That's just the beginning, just the birth. If a person is truly born again, then they will grow spiritually, they will be on a journey that lasts a lifetime. Sanctification is ongoing.

One way to know if a person is truly born-again is to see true change and transformation in their life. If a person says a quick prayer and thinks they're good to go, but there is no change in their life, no change in their nature… then it was probably empty. The Bible is clear that when we come to Christ, we become a new creation.

This might be a controversial thing to say, but if someone says they're a Christian but acts just like everyone else in the world, and is interested in worldly things, then they should probably think about their true spiritual condition.

 

[Grumblenuts]

That is what repentance is, the word literally means to change one's mind.

Repent is a compound word formed from “meta”, which means “amid” or “with,” and “noeo,” which means “to exercise the mind.” Thus, the word literally means, “accompanied by an exercise of the mind,” or “with understanding.” Any reputable Bible dictionary or Greek-English Lexicon will first define “repent” in this way.

 

[buttercup]

That is what repentance is, the word literally means to change one's mind.

Repent is a compound word formed from “meta”, which means “amid” or “with,” and “noeo,” which means “to exercise the mind.” Thus, the word literally means, “accompanied by an exercise of the mind,” or “with understanding.” Any reputable Bible dictionary or Greek-English Lexicon will first define “repent” in this way.

Yes, and when you read the article and the conclusion, the author is saying basically the same thing I said. Take a look, I added the bold:

What all this amounts to is that there is good evidence that the primary idea of repentance is a change of mind. Several of the dictionaries we have looked at make mention that new information or understanding is often involved (Strong’s, Thayer, Easton’s, Liddel & Scott), which leads to the change of mind. This is why I will typically define the word as: “change of mind based on new information or understanding.” This is universal and applicable to all uses of the word. Some synonyms which may convey the gravity of repentance slightly better would be “rethink, reconsider, or think again.” I have rarely seen a use of repentance where the change of mind was of little significance.​

 

[Grumblenuts]

So only now, having read the entire thing, do you repent!
No? Well hell then, no halo for you!

 

[ding]

So only now, having read the entire thing, do you repent!
No? Well hell then, no halo for you!

What exactly do you think it means to repent?

The Greek word for repent is "metanoia." Metanoia means to change your mind. Our thoughts, the flow of consciousness which determines our behaviors, can change. Metanoia has to do with moral activity, but goes beyond that. Jesus was teaching that we could change our mind about how we treat people. We don’t have to be unforgiving and cynical. We can change our mind about being negative. We can think positive thoughts and walk in faith instead of doubt. We can change our minds about sin. Rather than being caught in the strongholds of consistent habits of lust or selfishness, for example, we can experience freedom and selflessness. Jesus would not have told us to change unless it was possible and attainable. The Bible is full of words that speak about change. Repentance, metamorphosis, transformation, conversion, resurrection, rebirth, renewal, regeneration, healing and transfiguration.

 

[ding]

I think it's hilarious that the born agains say the catholics got it all wrong but the catholics say the born agains got it all wrong.

I say they are both wrong. So technically I agree with both of them.

More accurately it is Born Again believe and practice something different from what Catholics believe and practice. Technically, you fit right in. You have your beliefs and you practice those.

I am wondering if it isn't you and the Born Again who are closest to each other. For example, you do not need anything. The Born Again simply need an instant to declare a belief and they, too, are set.

In order to have made something of my life, I needed a hand, the Sacraments, the Beatitudes, and even many of the parables, and I needed to learn and practice incorporating these concepts into my life. I am amazed that some people can get through this life all on their own, or have things fixed in an instant. Still, I cannot complain. I may have been fated to take the hard way, but I do think it has been worth it.

That is not what being born again is about. And that is not the position of any born-again believer I've ever known, myself included.

No one can pull the wool over God's eyes, as I'm sure you would agree. It's not about saying a quick little prayer then going about one's life in the same way. One has to understand their true spiritual condition, and then a genuine change of mind and heart must take place. That is what repentance is, the word repent literally means to change one's mind.

God knows our hearts. Just because someone says a quick little prayer doesn't necessarily mean they are born again. It has to be real, and when it is real, being born again (justification) DOES happen in an instant. But that's not all there is! That's just the beginning, just the birth. If a person is truly born again, then they will grow spiritually, they will be on a journey that lasts a lifetime. Sanctification is ongoing.

One way to know if a person is truly born-again is to see true change and transformation in their life. If a person says a quick prayer and thinks they're good to go, but there is no change in their life, no change in their nature… then it was probably empty. The Bible is clear that when we come to Christ, we become a new creation.

This might be a controversial thing to say, but if someone says they're a Christian but acts just like everyone else in the world, and is interested in worldly things, then they should probably think about their true spiritual condition.

I agree with this. I would like to add that God does not expect perfection but he would like to see some progress.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Und "humor"? This so-called "sense" you guys seem never to partake of. Was ist das? What does your god recommend you do about that?

 

[buttercup]

Und "humor"? This so-called "sense" you guys seem never to partake of. Was ist das? What does your god recommend you do about that?

Your earlier post did make me laugh and I was going to reply, but I got sidetracked by another thread!

 

[ding]

Und "humor"? This so-called "sense" you guys seem never to partake of. Was ist das? What does your god recommend you do about that?

God loves humor. He created it.

 

[Newtonian]

I think it's hilarious that the born agains say the catholics got it all wrong but the catholics say the born agains got it all wrong.

I say they are both wrong. So technically I agree with both of them.

More accurately it is Born Again believe and practice something different from what Catholics believe and practice. Technically, you fit right in. You have your beliefs and you practice those.

I am wondering if it isn't you and the Born Again who are closest to each other. For example, you do not need anything. The Born Again simply need an instant to declare a belief and they, too, are set.

In order to have made something of my life, I needed a hand, the Sacraments, the Beatitudes, and even many of the parables, and I needed to learn and practice incorporating these concepts into my life. I am amazed that some people can get through this life all on their own, or have things fixed in an instant. Still, I cannot complain. I may have been fated to take the hard way, but I do think it has been worth it.

That is not what being born again is about. And that is not the position of any born-again believer I've ever known, myself included.

No one can pull the wool over God's eyes, as I'm sure you would agree. It's not about saying a quick little prayer then going about one's life in the same way. One has to understand their true spiritual condition, and then a genuine change of mind and heart must take place. That is what repentance is, the word repent literally means to change one's mind.

God knows our hearts. Just because someone says a quick little prayer doesn't necessarily mean they are born again. It has to be real, and when it is real, being born again (justification) DOES happen in an instant. But that's not all there is! That's just the beginning, just the birth. If a person is truly born again, then they will grow spiritually, they will be on a journey that lasts a lifetime. Sanctification is ongoing.

One way to know if a person is truly born-again is to see true change and transformation in their life. If a person says a quick prayer and thinks they're good to go, but there is no change in their life, no change in their nature… then it was probably empty. The Bible is clear that when we come to Christ, we become a new creation.

This might be a controversial thing to say, but if someone says they're a Christian but acts just like everyone else in the world, and is interested in worldly things, then they should probably think about their true spiritual condition.

Clearly many who say they are born again are not born again.

 

[Newtonian]

RE: All The News Anti-Palestinian Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss
⁜→ BreezeWood, et al,

BLUF: Before I get into my comment, I want you to know that I acknowledge (upfront) that I know of no ancient text called the desert religions bible's. Desert religions are not unique to the Middle East North African Region.

I would like to share the following excerpt:

​

​

Many biblical books evidently were the product of a long, complex literary process involving numerous authors, editors, and copyists through several generations and even centuries. Among the biblical scrolls from the Judean desert, variant literary editions are most evident for Exodus, Numbers, Joshua, Jeremiah, and Psalms. The sheer variety of textual forms exhibited among the biblical DSS (Dead Sea Scrolls) suggests that the Essenes at Qumran—and likely other Jewish groups in the Second Temple period — did not assign sacred status or authority to only one textual form of certain scriptural books, but to the book or tradition as such.​

​

There are more than a half-dozen key codices that are extremely important in terms of biblical archeology. But again, I think most would agree that the Leningrad Codex, Aleppo Codex, and the Dead Sea Scrolls were used by the Masoretes to compose what many consider to be the oldest version of the Bible. In the regard, monotheistic faiths of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam constitute the three oldest surviving major "Desert Religions" --- there were still older "oral traditions." And these oral traditions were passed down from one tribe to the next and eventually became the backbone of the faith in the God of Moses (Yahweh).

Note
________________________________
I think that many would agree that official rabbinic canon (three parts of the Tanak) are significant: the Law (Torah), the Prophets (Nevi’im), and the Writings (Ketubim).

When I think of the Religions of Antiquity, I'm thinking of a time Neolithic Age and early Bronze Age.

.roc, is there a name for the religion referred to in the desert religions bible's - other than their particular ascribed names. they have construed into their own brand.

(COMMENT)

My understanding is that the Hebrew/Jewish People preserve the writings known as the Chumash (AKA: Pentateuch) which must be well over 2500 to 3000 years old. I think these scrolls constitute the Five Books of Moses. And when I think of the Abrahamic (Desert) Religions (Hebrew/Judaism coming before the others) I think of a time when oral traditions. There are a few "desert tribes" that still practice (almost exclusively) on oral traditions.

Most Respectfully,
R

Do you believe that the account of Genesis, specifically the first eleven chapters and the accounts of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were unknown until Moses recorded them?

Or do you believe these were accounts that had been passed down orally for thousands of years from generation to generation and were common knowledge so to speak?

Neither and both. See 2 Timothy 3:16.

 

[justinacolmena]

I am totally open to the idea that god is real I just don’t believe any religions are real

I am concerned about too much Bible thumping. If the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the real God, then why did Abraham and his nephew Lot remain in spiritual bondage to Sodom in the manner of fruit that never ripened or an unfulfilled testament or promise of what kings and prophets desired to see but did not see?

Some people preach religion and practice vice, and then there's a devil, but no true God can come into being or exist in that religion.

Those hypocrites only preach right what gains them money and costs us money, and what they preach as so rightful to themselves they deny to us as sinful in the name of their religion.

If there is a God, then (by definition) God is good and right, but when that which is good and right fails to exist, then we are left without God.

 

[Newtonian]

JEh

I am totally open to the idea that god is real I just don’t believe any religions are real

I am concerned about too much Bible thumping. If the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the real God, then why did Abraham and his nephew Lot remain in spiritual bondage to Sodom in the manner of fruit that never ripened or an unfulfilled testament or promise of what kings and prophets desired to see but did not see?

Some people preach religion and practice vice, and then there's a devil, but no true God can come into being or exist in that religion.

Those hypocrites only preach right what gains them money and costs us money, and what they preach as so rightful to themselves they deny to us as sinful in the name of their religion.

If there is a God, then (by definition) God is good and right, but when that which is good and right fails to exist, then we are left without God.

Jehovah is God:

Psalms 83:18
King James Bible
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

You are correct that most religious clergy are money lovers. Most of the religions of Christendom fail to follow Jesus in many ways - that is one of them. Jesus never accepted a salary for his preaching.

The elders in my religion are not paid.

Jehovah had no beginning - He is the First Cause. The Divine Name Jehovah (YHWH) has the Hebrew verb hawah (HWH) which is a Hebrew verb "to be" which, in the causative sense means "He causes to be." Sadly, most religions of Christendom remove the Divine Name from their Bibles.

Note that these religions only remove the Divine Name - all other Bible names they retain including the names of false gods!

 

[justinacolmena]

"He causes to be."

That would make sense if God said, "I am that I am"...

 

[Newtonian]

"He causes to be."

That would make sense if God said, "I am that I am"...

"I am that I am" is a misleading translation of the Hebrew phrase ehyeh asher ehyeh in Exodus 3:14.

The Hebrew word ehyeh (HYH/hayah) contains a Hebrew verb related to hawah (HWH) in the Divine Name Jehovah (YHWH). Both HYH (hayah) in ehyeh and HWH (hawah) in YHWH/Jehovah mean "to be" in Hebrew - just a slight difference in connotation. From NW ref. footnote on Exodus 3

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

"“I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” Heb., אֶהְיֶֽה אֲשֶֽׁר אֶהְיֶֽה (ʼEh·yehʹ ʼAsherʹ ʼEh·yehʹ), God’s own self-designation; Leeser, “I WILL BE THAT I WILL BE”; Rotherham, “I Will Become whatsoever I please.” Gr., E·goʹ ei·mi ho on, “I am The Being,” or, “I am The Existing One”; Lat., eʹgo sum qui sum, “I am Who I am.” ʼEh·yehʹ comes from the Heb. verb ha·yahʹ, “become; prove to be.” Here ʼEh·yehʹ is in the imperfect state, first person sing., meaning “I shall become”; or, “I shall prove to be.” The reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others. Compare Ge 2:4 ftn, “Jehovah,” where the kindred, but different, Heb. verb ha·wahʹ appears in the divine name."

Please note that both hawah and hayah are verbs - all verbs require action. Jehovah is not simply stating that He exists - the action involves causing things to exist.

Note also that both hawah in the Divine Name Jehovah and hayah in ehyeh (Ex.3:14) are in the Hebrew imperfect verb state = action in progress not yet complete. Therefore Jehovah continues to cause things to be - as in the Creator.

The context of Exodus 3:14 reveals an aspect of ehyeh, namely: Jehovah is the fulfiller of promises. Specifically in this context, fulfilling the promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as to the promised land. This is also a definition of the Divine Name Jehovah which is also in the context of Exodus 3:14 (in the Hebrew and correct English translations).

 

[Grumblenuts]

 

[ding]

I am totally open to the idea that god is real I just don’t believe any religions are real

I am concerned about too much Bible thumping. If the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the real God, then why did Abraham and his nephew Lot remain in spiritual bondage to Sodom in the manner of fruit that never ripened or an unfulfilled testament or promise of what kings and prophets desired to see but did not see?

Some people preach religion and practice vice, and then there's a devil, but no true God can come into being or exist in that religion.

Those hypocrites only preach right what gains them money and costs us money, and what they preach as so rightful to themselves they deny to us as sinful in the name of their religion.

If there is a God, then (by definition) God is good and right, but when that which is good and right fails to exist, then we are left without God.

Everything works for good.

 

[Grumblenuts]

 

[ding]

"He causes to be."

That would make sense if God said, "I am that I am"...

It’s a widely held belief that in their community they believe God made existence right? And that God is existence, right?

Are you questioning that belief or are you questioning the basis for that belief?

"I am who I am", adding, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I am has sent me to you.'