Open to Judgement: UN complicity in 7th Oct. massacre

[Toddsterpatriot]

Absolutely! You don't kill 25,000 people by mistake!

If I wanted to target civilians in Gaza, I could have killed 25,000 in the first few hours.

100,000 in the first few days. In 3 months, 1,000,000.

 

[Billo_Really]

I don't think blockading Hamas is illegal or immoral.

I'm not sure the Hamas numbers, 25,000, can be trusted.

I know that there weren't 25,000 murdered by Israel in Gaza.

2.2 million people live in Gaza. Not all of them are Hamas. The blockade punishes everyone there. That is called "collective punishment" and that is a war crime. It is also the primary cause of Oct 7th.

How the fuck do you know 25,000 people weren't killed? Or did you just close your eyes like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, tap your heals together and chant, "There are not 25,000 deaths. There are not 25,000 deaths!"

 

[Billo_Really]

If I wanted to target civilians in Gaza, I could have killed 25,000 in the first few hours.

100,000 in the first few days. In 3 months, 1,000,000.

Well you do and you did!

 

[Shusha]

Or are you saying 25,000 people are not dead?

I don't doubt that 25,000 people are dead. The fact that people are dead, does not, in any way, suggest that they were all non-combatants, nor that Israel is deliberately targeting non-combatants, nor that Israel isn't doing its utmost to prevent non-combatant deaths.

You can't keep quoting the number as being self-evident proof of Israeli evil, unless you can either argue the possibility of conducting a war with no deaths whatsoever or to argue for a certain level of acceptable deaths.

FWIW, looking at that number, I'd suggest that at least 15,000 are combatants. Some will be non-combatants killed by Hamas, either deliberately or by indiscriminate rockets.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

2.2 million people live in Gaza. Not all of them are Hamas. The blockade punishes everyone there. That is called "collective punishment" and that is a war crime. It is also the primary cause of Oct 7th.

How the fuck do you know 25,000 people weren't killed? Or did you just close your eyes like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, tap your heals together and chant, "There are not 25,000 deaths. There are not 25,000 deaths!"

2.2 million people live in Gaza. Not all of them are Hamas.

Hamas is their government. Perhaps they chose poorly?

The blockade punishes everyone there. That is called "collective punishment"

How sad.

How the fuck do you know 25,000 people weren't killed?

How the fuck do you know 25,000 people were killed?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Well you do and you did!

I did? Was it 1,000,000? More? Are you on LSD again?

 

[Billo_Really]

I don't doubt that 25,000 people are dead. The fact that people are dead, does not, in any way, suggest that they were all non-combatants, nor that Israel is deliberately targeting non-combatants, nor that Israel isn't doing its utmost to prevent non-combatant deaths.

You can't keep quoting the number as being self-evident proof of Israeli evil, unless you can either argue the possibility of conducting a war with no deaths whatsoever or to argue for a certain level of acceptable deaths.

FWIW, looking at that number, I'd suggest that at least 15,000 are combatants. Some will be non-combatants killed by Hamas, either deliberately or by indiscriminate rockets.

Bullshit! There are not 15,000 people in Hamas. And most of the dead are woman and children. It says a lot about you as a person and Israel on the whole for you to be so cavalier about 25,000 people being killed.

 

[Shusha]

Bullshit! There are not 15,000 people in Hamas. And most of the dead are woman and children. It says a lot about you as a person and Israel on the whole for you to be so cavalier about 25,000 people being killed.

All the estimates I've read say 30,000-40,000 total Hamas members. But checking ID when someone is aiming a weapon at you isn't exactly a realistic method of conducting war.

I also find it incredibly unrealistic to believe that of 2.3 million people, only 30,000 are Hamas, especially in light of the information we are seeing about the pervasiveness of weapons and tunnel entrances throughout Gaza. The number of weapons caches has been euphemistically described as "every other house". I'm not entirely convinced that is accurate, but certainly seems to be an indication that it is much higher than anticipated.

Which leads me to... The GOAL of the war is to eliminate Hamas and dismantle their terrorism capabilities, but that doesn't mean that combatants and those contributing to the war aren't subject to military intervention. Like I said, we aren't checking IDs at the door. If you are holding a hostage in your house, you are actively contributing to the war and are therefore not a protected person. (As well as being a war criminal). If you have a cache of weapons in your house, you are actively contributing to the war and are therefore not a protected person. If you have a tunnel entrance or exit ... If you provide shelter to combatants... If you move a hostage... If you, well, you get the point.

I also don't buy for one second the "women and children" argument. Its just a play for emotion. The Hamas government counts the age of majority as 19. You are a fool if you believe that no person under the age of 20 contributed to the hostilities, as demonstrated by their own social media. You are doubly a fool if you believe the people of Gaza are actively preventing their children from participating in the war as combatants. They are trained to do so from preschool. And, as a woman, I can tell you with full confidence that I can shoot a rifle as well, or better, than any man, and if I do, I am also not a protected person.

Which, of course, is not to say that children are not innocent. Without question, they are. They may not be protected persons, depending on their actions, but they are always innocent. The responsibility in keeping them protected lies with Hamas and the people of Gaza. It is their obligation, under international law, and under any shred of humanity you have, to prevent them from taking up arms. Child soldiers is one of the most egregious crimes against humanity one could commit, and the people of Gaza are actively committing this terrible crime.

And. The number of people in Gaza who are victims of the deliberate actions of their own combatants with their inept rockets and intentional murder of their own civilians for "points", falls squarely on the terrorists and any who support them.

Finally, let's not forget all these people would still be living, had the October 7 atrocity not occurred. Don't @ me with boo-hoo but "occupation" as though the people of Gaza have no other option. There is going to be another $10 billion worth of aid money coming to them, if not more. I suggest if they hear the sounds of tunnels being built under their homes, they stop "resisting" Israel and start "resisting" their own government. Choose water. Choose electricity. Choose economic prosperity.

It isn't even that hard, except people like you keep telling them that they have no agency over their own lives.

 

[rylah]

S. Africa funding Hamas?

 

[rylah]

UNRWA chief 'shocked' at countries stopping agency's funding

Several countries freeze millions of dollars of funds intended for UNRWA following allegations of agency employs participating in October 7 massacre; UNRWA chief 'shocked' saying that action has been taken 'against a small group of staff'; Germany, UNRWA's second highest funder also stops funding

www.ynetnews.com

 

[rylah]

Israel Lands Authority Demands UNRWA Vacate Illegally Occupied Plot in Jerusalem Area

Among the structures built on the UNRWA site are a school and a memorial honoring Jerusalem-area terrorists.

www.jewishpress.com

 

[Coyote]

Was Bibi not loud enough? There will be no State of Palestine in the foreseeable future. Likely never.

From Day 1, he had no intention of it.

Beyond that, well, I'm best guessing here. Military occupation during the rebuild phase. Possibly with the option of voluntary emigration (I mean, actually, truly voluntary). I can't see how that can be helped.

There will be no occupation, since it will be Israel.

No occupation….when will they be granted citizenship? What rights will they have? The fact that they’ve existed in a no-man’s land of with negligible rights, justice, and no foreseeable autonomy for decades is part of what led to what is happening today, so you are just going to repeat it and gradually shove them out or segregate them into enclaves is being done in Jerusalem? If they get married to someone outside Gaza, they are unable to bring their family in? Will a new crop of settlers arrive to violently drive them off, like they are doing in the West Bank? Will their farmland be cut into pieces…spoils of war?

Eventually, once we have a couple of generations of de-radicalized children brought up in an ethical school system, there might be a chance for Gaza, and probably the West Bank too, to be run semi-independently under a provincial system. That would be my suggestion.

What would an ethical school system look like? )I’m asking because I do agree there are problems with it in regards to what teaches about Israel.).

I am cynical because I wonder if that would mean eradicating the Palestinian identity and rewriting their history to suit some one else? Minimize Nakhba? Etc.

 

[expat500]

 

[rylah]

From Day 1, he had no intention of it.





No occupation….when will they be granted citizenship? What rights will they have? The fact that they’ve existed in a no-man’s land of with negligible rights, justice, and no foreseeable autonomy for decades is part of what led to what is happening today, so you are just going to repeat it and gradually shove them out or segregate them into enclaves is being done in Jerusalem? If they get married to someone outside Gaza, they are unable to bring their family in? Will a new crop of settlers arrive to violently drive them off, like they are doing in the West Bank? Will their farmland be cut into pieces…spoils of war?


What would an ethical school system look like? )I’m asking because I do agree there are problems with it in regards to what teaches about Israel.).

I am cynical because I wonder if that would mean eradicating the Palestinian identity and rewriting their history to suit some one else? Minimize Nakhba? Etc.

All these have been answered here - many times.
Israelis want sovereignty - that means full citizenship.

- BUT -

The window of opportunity for that option is narrowing,
with the shift to Parliamentary-Monarchy, because "Free Palestine",
couldn't care less about citizenship or rights - but for Jews not to have any.

 

[rylah]

UK Labor back suspension of UNRWA funding

 

[rylah]

Increasing Number of Donor Nations Suspend Aid After a Dozen UNRWA Employees Found to Have Joined October 7 Attacks

The government of Israel has incontrovertible proof, including evidence the IDF gathered inside Gaza, that twelve employees of UNRWA joined Hamas operatives in committing atrocities — raping, torturing, mutilating, murdering Israelis — on October 7. Apparently the proof provided by Israel was...

www.jihadwatch.org

 

[Shusha]

No occupation….when will they be granted citizenship? What rights will they have?

The end vision would be the same as it is for all Arab Israelis. Sovereign Israel. Citizenship. Full, equal rights for all. Cultural respect.

OR some sort of semi-independent, autonomous, provincial system. Think Monaco or First Nations sovereignty in Canada.

But, no, it won't (CAN'T) happen right away.

The fact that they’ve existed in a no-man’s land of with negligible rights, justice, and no foreseeable autonomy for decades is part of what led to what is happening today, so you are just going to repeat it and gradually shove them out or segregate them into enclaves is being done in Jerusalem?

Gaza was given a state, in all reality. Gaza had all the self-determination in the world. The people of Gaza chose to use that self-determination to make an 18 year war on Israel, then to commit atrocities on Israel's innocent civilians on October 7. One of the survivors, both of the Nazi Holocaust and the Hamas holocaust, said the gas chambers were at least kind in their destruction of Jews, as opposed to the horrific things that were done to Jews in the October 7 massacre. Just let that sink in for a moment. That is the conversation that is happening in Israel right now. You need to understand this. There. is. no. going. back.

This is my new mantra: I am tired of being told by people who support the Palestinian people that the Palestinians are incapable of acting with humanity, dignity, and the capacity to join the global community of nations. I am tired of hearing that Palestinians are incapable of the making other choices. No more excuses. If they want to join the international community, they have to start acting like they are capable of it.

Every weapons cache, every tunnel, every hostage kept in private homes, every civilian acting as spotters, every doctor (or vet!) who treated a hostage, every teacher who taught "death to Jews", every mother who cheered when her son tells her he killed ten Jews with his own hands, everyone who spit on a raped girl's corpse in the street, everyone who passed out candy and celebrated is responsible for their society.

 

[Coyote]

The end vision would be the same as it is for all Arab Israelis. Sovereign Israel. Citizenship. Full, equal rights for all. Cultural respect.

OR some sort of semi-independent, autonomous, provincial system. Think Monaco or First Nations sovereignty in Canada.

But, no, it won't (CAN'T) happen right away.

Gaza was given a state, in all reality. Gaza had all the self-determination in the world. The people of Gaza chose to use that self-determination to make an 18 year war on Israel, then to commit atrocities on Israel's innocent civilians on October 7. One of the survivors, both of the Nazi Holocaust and the Hamas holocaust, said the gas chambers were at least kind in their destruction of Jews, as opposed to the horrific things that were done to Jews in the October 7 massacre. Just let that sink in for a moment. That is the conversation that is happening in Israel right now. You need to understand this. There. is. no. going. back.

Gaza became a failed state for a multitude of reasons and whatever happens next cannot recreate the the situation that allowed Hamas to grow.

Here is something else that should “sink in” as you say.

26,000 people in Gaza have been killed, mostly civilians and children. Thousands are still buried in the rubble. Entire clans have been wiped out. According to one figure, 1% of Gaza’s population has now been killed. More than 70% of the homes and structures in Gaza are damaged or destroyed. More than 29,000 bombs, shells and munitions have been dropped on Gaza. In just 3 months. The scale and pace of destruction are unprecedented in modern urban warfare.

This is my new mantra: I am tired of being told by people who support the Palestinian people that the Palestinians are incapable of acting with humanity, dignity, and the capacity to join the global community of nations. I am tired of hearing that Palestinians are incapable of the making other choices. No more excuses. If they want to join the international community, they have to start acting like they are capable of it.

Every weapons cache, every tunnel, every hostage kept in private homes, every civilian acting as spotters, every doctor (or vet!) who treated a hostage, every teacher who taught "death to Jews", every mother who cheered when her son tells her he killed ten Jews with his own hands, everyone who spit on a raped girl's corpse in the street, everyone who passed out candy and celebrated is responsible for their society.

This guy puts it best.

The Reality We Have to Change

From the blog of Gershon Baskin at The Times of Israel

blogs.timesofisrael.com

 

[Shusha]

This guy puts it best.

The Reality We Have to Change

From the blog of Gershon Baskin at The Times of Israel

blogs.timesofisrael.com

Nope. Here is where I stopped reading:

What Hamas did on October 7 in Israel crossed the line between humanity and what is on the other side. What Israel has been doing in Gaza since October 7 has crossed the same line.

Hard nope. Your reach for equivalency is not only a reach, but a disgusting inversion of good and evil.

If anyone is squeamish...turn away now:
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Putting a living child into an oven and turning it up to 500
Hammering nails into a woman's genitals
Beheading a living man with the edge of a shovel
Inserting a gun into a woman's vagina and firing it
Tossing a grenade into a safe room full of children
Forcing children to watch videos of their parent's murder
Burning people alive in their homes
Abducting babies, elderly, whole families
Cutting off body parts from living people
so many more horrific things....

are NOT equivalent to:

Sending hundreds of thousands of messages by various means to the population of Gaza to evacuate
Creating safe corridors for evacuation
Assisting with hospital evacuation
Maintaining access of necessities into Gaza
Setting up safe zones
Having legal teams verify each strike

Especially when considering the unparalleled conditions under which Israel is operating:

An entire underground city connected by tunnels
Armed with booby traps, IEDs, and rigged explosives in children's backpacks playing Hebrew language
Weapons caches in every other home
Weapons caches in every hospital, mosque, and school
"Civilians" keeping hostages in their homes
UN staff actively participating in the atrocities
Systemic radicalization in schools and mosques
Rockets fired daily, including from safe zones
Shooting your own civilians as they try to flee
The utter refusal or inability to provide basic decent human services to your civilians
Giving out candy and praise for dead Jews


There is absolutely no question here wherein lies the good and wherein lies the evil. If you can't see the difference, your humanity is broken.

 

[Shusha]

Gaza became a failed state for a multitude of reasons

Gaza is a failed state because the people of Gaza are "resisting" creating one.