Orthodox Christianity, False Teachers, Faith, and Reason

[AVG-JOE]

I interpret this to mean there are certain inaccuracies being put forward as absolutes in their interpretation which should be more circumspect in their teaching, with respect to the message they convey. God is universal belonging to no one religion or organization or people but oversees all of existence. Is this accurate?

Depends on who you ask. A lot of folks don't have the back-bone to define God because it's then that the conversation can get dicey. Others are truly ambivalent and believe that God is o.k. with all the different types of worship. Most of the Ancient Stories however, claim that there's only two choices, the right way and pathways to hell.

You think? On that right way vs pathway to hell thing? I haven't come to that same conclusion as I think there are so many twists and turns in the human condition and in the human heart that it is impossible to confine them all to one single concept. But it does seem that God has called some very unlikely characters to take the leading roles in a lot of those stories.

I think that a LOT of worshipers BELIEVE that the Ancient Stories describe a single pathway to a life after death in Heaven and I think that a lot of people believe that they are among the few who're worshiping the God of those stories correctly and will be among those who live on with God.

 

[Foxfyre]

Depends on who you ask. A lot of folks don't have the back-bone to define God because it's then that the conversation can get dicey. Others are truly ambivalent and believe that God is o.k. with all the different types of worship. Most of the Ancient Stories however, claim that there's only two choices, the right way and pathways to hell.

You think? On that right way vs pathway to hell thing? I haven't come to that same conclusion as I think there are so many twists and turns in the human condition and in the human heart that it is impossible to confine them all to one single concept. But it does seem that God has called some very unlikely characters to take the leading roles in a lot of those stories.

I think that a LOT of worshipers BELIEVE that the Ancient Stories describe a single pathway to a life after death in Heaven and I think that a lot of people believe that they are among the few who're worshiping the God of those stories correctly and will be among those who live on with God.

Oh I do too. Judaism rejects both Christianity and Islam and there are sects within Judaism that are not at all friendly to each other.

Islam rejects Judaism and Chrisitianity and there are sects within Islam that are not at all friendly with each other.

Christianity rejects Islam and embraces the Jewish prophecies and components of the Law, but it is its own thing. And there are hundreds of denominations and other sub groups within Christianity, each believing that it does church better than anybody else at least in some respects.

So obviously all of these cannot be right.

The basic concept of the OP was to explore whether we can use our intellect, logic, and reason to accept that God honors all and uses al for his purposes? Or must we choose one out of the many as the one true church and all others are inferior or heretics?

 

[AVG-JOE]

Well I don't think I brought up death except that I keep a list of questions I have no answers for. When I die, the only thing i want to take with me is my list and get them answered.

But when I mention God, I am speaking of the One I know to be real, and which humankind has been trying to describe and define for all of human history. I am speaking of the One I have personally experienced. But I know my experiences with the living God have at times taken a different path than have experiences others have had.

The whole point of my OP and what I have been trying to generate a discussion about, do we all have to believe the exact same things about that God? Interpret the scriptures that inform us about Him in exactly the same way? All believe exactly the same thing about everything religious in order to be acceptable?

There are worshipers of The God of Abraham, as described in The Torah, New Testament and Koran, who're ready to kill others en mass, even though they worship the same God, because they feel that the others are worshiping God incorrectly. Given the opportunity, some would kill me because of my perceived blasphemy of not worshiping that particular God.

I think that defining God is extremely important, even when the definition is deliberately established as loosely as possible. As long as everyone is on the same page when someone speaks of 'God'.

And I respect that, but I can't participate in a 'definition of God' since I don't think we mere mortals are given anywhere near the intellect, reason, logic, knowledge, training, or insight to come even close to doing that.

Why? It's easy!

God, as described in The Torah, New Testament and Koran is a very specific character in literature. Most know of whom I speak.

God, as described in Egyptian mythology as Ash, The God of the oasis and the vineyards of the western Nile Delta is specific.

Keeping God generic can help keep the conversation moving, but if a personal relationship with a God is the goal, my suggestion is to pick one and get to know Him/Her.

 

[AVG-JOE]

You think? On that right way vs pathway to hell thing? I haven't come to that same conclusion as I think there are so many twists and turns in the human condition and in the human heart that it is impossible to confine them all to one single concept. But it does seem that God has called some very unlikely characters to take the leading roles in a lot of those stories.

I think that a LOT of worshipers BELIEVE that the Ancient Stories describe a single pathway to a life after death in Heaven and I think that a lot of people believe that they are among the few who're worshiping the God of those stories correctly and will be among those who live on with God.

Oh I do too. Judaism rejects both Christianity and Islam and there are sects within Judaism that are not at all friendly to each other.

Islam rejects Judaism and Chrisitianity and there are sects within Islam that are not at all friendly with each other.

Christianity rejects Islam and embraces the Jewish prophecies and components of the Law, but it is its own thing. And there are hundreds of denominations and other sub groups within Christianity, each believing that it does church better than anybody else at least in some respects.

So obviously all of these cannot be right.

The basic concept of the OP was to explore whether we can use our intellect, logic, and reason to accept that God honors all and uses al for his purposes? Or must we choose one out of the many as the one true church and all others are inferior or heretics?

Step one is to open the mind to possibilities. Both the possibility that others may be right and the uncomfortable possibility that you may be wrong.

The path to intellectual enlightenment starts with tolerance.

 

[Foxfyre]

There are worshipers of The God of Abraham, as described in The Torah, New Testament and Koran, who're ready to kill others en mass, even though they worship the same God, because they feel that the others are worshiping God incorrectly. Given the opportunity, some would kill me because of my perceived blasphemy of not worshiping that particular God.

I think that defining God is extremely important, even when the definition is deliberately established as loosely as possible. As long as everyone is on the same page when someone speaks of 'God'.

And I respect that, but I can't participate in a 'definition of God' since I don't think we mere mortals are given anywhere near the intellect, reason, logic, knowledge, training, or insight to come even close to doing that.

Why? It's easy!

God, as described in The Torah, New Testament and Koran is a very specific character in literature. Most know of whom I speak.

God, as described in Egyptian mythology as Ash, The God of the oasis and the vineyards of the western Nile Delta is specific.

Keeping God generic can help keep the conversation moving, but if a personal relationship with a God is the goal, my suggestion is to pick one and get to know Him/Her.

For me it isn't that easy. God is not invented by humankind but created humankind. Those manufactured by humankind are in a different league and I would never call God.

But the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph, of Moses and David and first Century Christianity is referred to by so many different names and referred to by so many metaphors, each showing a different side or understanding of God. And these just scratch the surface.

For example in the Old Testament, YHWH is mentioned 6,800 times, Elohim 2,600 times, Adonai 439 times, El 238 times. There are also various combinations used such as El Shaddai, El Eloah, Yahweh Elohim.

In the New Testament in Revelation alone you find God referred to as:
The First-born from the dead
The highest of earthly kings
The Alpha and Omega
Lord God
The Almighty
Son of Man
The First and the Last
The Living One
Son of God
Witness
Faithful Witness
Creator
Lion of Judah
Root of David
Root of Jesse
The Lamb
The Shepherd
The Christ (Anointed)
Faithful and True
Word of God
King of Kings
Lord of Lords

Most in different contexts.

How do you narrow all that down to a single definition?

 

[whitehall]

Would a rant against orthodox Islam get you in trouble?

 

[Foxfyre]

Would a rant against orthodox Islam get you in trouble?

In trouble with whom? I can use my intellect, logic, and reason to recognize that Islam has pieces of the truth as all religion does, but I can argue all day long how God shows himself in Christianity. I can't do that with Islam.

 

[whitehall]

Would a rant against orthodox Islam get you in trouble?

In trouble with whom? I can use my intellect, logic, and reason to recognize that Islam has pieces of the truth as all religion does, but I can argue all day long how God shows himself in Christianity. I can't do that with Islam.

"Islam has pieces of the truth"? Maybe so but which religious orthodoxy is more outrageous to your personal comfort zone? Christians want to put a Creche in a public forum or Islamic fanatics who stone a woman to death for adultery?

 

[AVG-JOE]

And I respect that, but I can't participate in a 'definition of God' since I don't think we mere mortals are given anywhere near the intellect, reason, logic, knowledge, training, or insight to come even close to doing that.

Why? It's easy!

God, as described in The Torah, New Testament and Koran is a very specific character in literature. Most know of whom I speak.

God, as described in Egyptian mythology as Ash, The God of the oasis and the vineyards of the western Nile Delta is specific.

Keeping God generic can help keep the conversation moving, but if a personal relationship with a God is the goal, my suggestion is to pick one and get to know Him/Her.

For me it isn't that easy. God is not invented by humankind but created humankind. Those manufactured by humankind are in a different league and I would never call God.

But the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph, of Moses and David and first Century Christianity is referred to by so many different names and referred to by so many metaphors, each showing a different side or understanding of God. And these just scratch the surface.

For example in the Old Testament, YHWH is mentioned 6,800 times, Elohim 2,600 times, Adonai 439 times, El 238 times. There are also various combinations used such as El Shaddai, El Eloah, Yahweh Elohim.

In the New Testament in Revelation alone you find God referred to as:
The First-born from the dead
The highest of earthly kings
The Alpha and Omega
Lord God
The Almighty
Son of Man
The First and the Last
The Living One
Son of God
Witness
Faithful Witness
Creator
Lion of Judah
Root of David
Root of Jesse
The Lamb
The Shepherd
The Christ (Anointed)
Faithful and True
Word of God
King of Kings
Lord of Lords

Most in different contexts.

How do you narrow all that down to a single definition?

Do you think God is o.k. with having none of the religions doing it completely right, and all religions perhaps getting a glimpse of Him?

 

[Chuckt]

Would a rant against orthodox Islam get you in trouble?

In trouble with whom? I can use my intellect, logic, and reason to recognize that Islam has pieces of the truth as all religion does, but I can argue all day long how God shows himself in Christianity. I can't do that with Islam.

"Islam has pieces of the truth"? Maybe so but which religious orthodoxy is more outrageous to your personal comfort zone? Christians want to put a Creche in a public forum or Islamic fanatics who stone a woman to death for adultery?

And which is more outrageous to you?

 

[whitehall]

In trouble with whom? I can use my intellect, logic, and reason to recognize that Islam has pieces of the truth as all religion does, but I can argue all day long how God shows himself in Christianity. I can't do that with Islam.

"Islam has pieces of the truth"? Maybe so but which religious orthodoxy is more outrageous to your personal comfort zone? Christians want to put a Creche in a public forum or Islamic fanatics who stone a woman to death for adultery?

And which is more outrageous to you?

The whole concept is so crazy that it illustrates the Hussein agenda. The 9-11 terrorists told us that we were infidels and deserved to die and yet there is a crazy effort by the left to undermine Christianity icons in the established American society.

 

[Foxfyre]

Would a rant against orthodox Islam get you in trouble?

In trouble with whom? I can use my intellect, logic, and reason to recognize that Islam has pieces of the truth as all religion does, but I can argue all day long how God shows himself in Christianity. I can't do that with Islam.

"Islam has pieces of the truth"? Maybe so but which religious orthodoxy is more outrageous to your personal comfort zone? Christians want to put a Creche in a public forum or Islamic fanatics who stone a woman to death for adultery?

Do you see stoning a woman to death and creche as comparable? I don't see how these two things are related in any way.

Stoning somebody to death is a cruel, brutal way to kill somebody.

A creche is symbolic and gives joy to those who enjoy it and harms absolutely nobody.

 

[Foxfyre]

Why? It's easy!

God, as described in The Torah, New Testament and Koran is a very specific character in literature. Most know of whom I speak.

God, as described in Egyptian mythology as Ash, The God of the oasis and the vineyards of the western Nile Delta is specific.

Keeping God generic can help keep the conversation moving, but if a personal relationship with a God is the goal, my suggestion is to pick one and get to know Him/Her.

For me it isn't that easy. God is not invented by humankind but created humankind. Those manufactured by humankind are in a different league and I would never call God.

But the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph, of Moses and David and first Century Christianity is referred to by so many different names and referred to by so many metaphors, each showing a different side or understanding of God. And these just scratch the surface.

For example in the Old Testament, YHWH is mentioned 6,800 times, Elohim 2,600 times, Adonai 439 times, El 238 times. There are also various combinations used such as El Shaddai, El Eloah, Yahweh Elohim.

In the New Testament in Revelation alone you find God referred to as:
The First-born from the dead
The highest of earthly kings
The Alpha and Omega
Lord God
The Almighty
Son of Man
The First and the Last
The Living One
Son of God
Witness
Faithful Witness
Creator
Lion of Judah
Root of David
Root of Jesse
The Lamb
The Shepherd
The Christ (Anointed)
Faithful and True
Word of God
King of Kings
Lord of Lords

Most in different contexts.

How do you narrow all that down to a single definition?

Do you think God is o.k. with having none of the religions doing it completely right, and all religions perhaps getting a glimpse of Him?

I can't believe God is okay with any religion that exalts the rules of man instead of exalting Him. The Bible is pretty clear about that. I can't believe God is okay with any religion that hurts people, tears people down, or uses God as a weapon to coerce and manipulate people.

But do I think any person, group, or Church has it exactly right? I can't believe that either because then we would be on the same level with God and I don't believe anybody is.

But I do believe God blesses those who do their best to know his will and to do it. I have to believe that.

 

[AVG-JOE]

"Islam has pieces of the truth"? Maybe so but which religious orthodoxy is more outrageous to your personal comfort zone? Christians want to put a Creche in a public forum or Islamic fanatics who stone a woman to death for adultery?

And which is more outrageous to you?

The whole concept is so crazy that it illustrates the Hussein agenda. The 9-11 terrorists told us that we were infidels and deserved to die and yet there is a crazy effort by the left to undermine Christianity icons in the established American society.

I think you confuse 'undermining Christianity' with 'supporting Islam'.

Perhaps some folks see Christianity and Islam as two sides of the same warped Jewish coin.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Genesis 1:
At some point God created the heavens and the earth. After that:
Day 1 - God created light and separated it from the darkness and called these night and day.
Day 2 - God separated the sky from the waters.
Day 3 - God created dry land separate from the waters and created vegetation.
Day 4 - God created the sun, moon, and stars.
Day 5 - God created the birds and sea creatures.
Day 6 - God created all the other creatures and humans, male and female he created them.
Day 7 - God rested.

Genesis 2:

No mention of days or time frame of any sort, but the order of creation was:
- God created the earth and the heavens but nothing was yet on the Earth.
- God created a man who would later be called Adam.
- God then planted a garden and put the man in charge of it and looked for a helper for him.
- Meanwhile God formed the beasts and the birds and brought them to the man to give them names.
- No suitable helper was found for the man, so God created woman from Adam's rib.

So the first Creation story has God creating the heaven and earth and man appearing after everything else was in place.

The second Creation story has God creating the heaven and earth and man possibly appearing before everything else.

To the serious scholarly theologian there is no conflict as each story was written to make a different point or illustrate a particular truth. To the non-believing scientist, both are a crock because they don't follow our 21st century understanding of the scientific chronology. To the Bible literalist, the differences must be ignored or somehow be manipulated to fit.

So which of these, if any, is wrong?

Nobody knows and, more importantly, nobody CAN know. That's why it's called 'faith'. The sooner that every Monkey understands that no Monkey, including themselves, has proof of God, AND no Monkey, including themselves, has proof that there is no God, the better.

The secret to living without religious warfare is religious tolerance. Beliefs are like nipples - everyone has a set and no two sets are identical.

 

[Chuckt]

Nobody knows and, more importantly, nobody CAN know. That's why it's called 'faith'. The sooner that every Monkey understands that no Monkey, including themselves, has proof of God, AND no Monkey, including themselves, has proof that there is no God, the better.

The secret to living without religious warfare is religious tolerance. Beliefs are like nipples - everyone has a set and no two sets are identical.

We have proof that there is more manuscript evidence for the Bible than any other people in ancient history so if you don't believe in the Bible then you can't believe in Pliny the Younger or other people of ancient history.

How far back can you go back and prove the past? You weren't an eyewitness so if you hold up the same standards for people of the past as the Bible then you really can't believe anything because your faith creates unbelief because "not knowing" isn't fact.

 

[AVG-JOE]

That's the whole point to religion - there will never be PROOF of origins and there will never be PROOF of what lay beyond the grave.

What can never be proven MUST be taken or rejected on faith. The trick is to realize that everyone has the same right to be wrong.

 

[Avatar4321]

That's the whole point to religion - there will never be PROOF of origins and there will never be PROOF of what lay beyond the grave.

What can never be proven MUST be taken or rejected on faith. The trick is to realize that everyone has the same right to be wrong.

Which is precisely why in order to learn the things of God, you have to go to God. He reveals Himself. We can find guidence in the scriptures and revelations of the past, but we must recieve our own revelations to truly know anything of God.

 

[Chuckt]

That's the whole point to religion - there will never be PROOF of origins and there will never be PROOF of what lay beyond the grave.

What can never be proven MUST be taken or rejected on faith. The trick is to realize that everyone has the same right to be wrong.

Which is precisely why in order to learn the things of God, you have to go to God. He reveals Himself. We can find guidence in the scriptures and revelations of the past, but we must recieve our own revelations to truly know anything of God.

How do you know it is "proof" and not another spirit?

 

[Avatar4321]

That's the whole point to religion - there will never be PROOF of origins and there will never be PROOF of what lay beyond the grave.

What can never be proven MUST be taken or rejected on faith. The trick is to realize that everyone has the same right to be wrong.

Which is precisely why in order to learn the things of God, you have to go to God. He reveals Himself. We can find guidence in the scriptures and revelations of the past, but we must recieve our own revelations to truly know anything of God.

How do you know it is "proof" and not another spirit?

Do you know what question tells me? It tells me you don't know the Holy Spirit from another. Because those who have experienced the Holy Spirit can tell the difference?

Read Galations 5. You will see the fruits of the Spirit.

I know when I first experienced the Holy Spirit, I was truly floored. I felt the power of God. I experienced His glory. It was very humbling. I was also very much aware that He loved me. And what made it all more powerful was that He whispered. I had no clue how to tell recognize Him at the time. I just believed that if God existed, He could make Himself known to me in His time and in His way.

I didn't know if the Bible was true. Or if God ever spoke to man. I just knew that if He did, He could speak to me.

And He did by the power of the Holy Ghost. When you experience the Holy Spirit He can be very subtle. But despite that it's even more powerful than the ministering of angels.

It really is something you have to experience for yourself. I would have an easier time explaining what salt tastes like to someone who has never tasted it.