Orthodox Christianity, False Teachers, Faith, and Reason

[Chuckt]

Since when are believers supposed to *challenge* each other, and didn't the Jews get in a LOT of trouble for becoming so addicted to the law that they missed the Messiah?

Foxfyre already invited other people to challenge me after not answering some of my posts, ignoring the parts from creeds I quoted and ignoring the Bible. If he/she wants to do it then he/she should do it in front of people who are qualified but what you are going to find out is that they believe like I do.

I am hoping somebody who agrees with him will explain his point of view in plain English as he appears unable or unwilling to do so.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...teachers-faith-and-reason-11.html#post7956632

If someone teaches heresy or error in public then they are allowed to be challenged in public. Paul did this in Galatians 2:11 with Peter and it didn't wreck the church. This is also testified to in an issue of the Christian Research Journal which I have a copy so it isn't just my word but it is the word of the Church at large as well.

Well you keep saying I haven't answered your questions, but when I asked you what questions I hadn't answered and asked you to repeat them, you harshly replied that you didn't need any questions? And now you're still complaining that I'm not answering your questions.

I have not challenged your theology. I am only challenging your challenge of mine.

And you refuse. . . .repeat REFUSE. . . so far to quote me a single one of my words that you are challenging.

So I challenge you here and now Chuckt. If you cannot tell me what words of mine you are challenging, then you are a fraud and a trouble maker and are not representing your faith in an honorable way. And I have to believe you have no authority whatsoever to challenge anybody.

So there you have it. You can either accommodate my request to state what you are challenging or you will not. And if you will not, you do not serve well.

Are you saying I am a trouble maker but I refused to say what you have done wrong?

All of these posts and you can't find one single thing?

You didn't answer the questions, right? Is that because you don't care?

Or is it that you don't wish to address it?

If you addressed it, you can't pretend my questions are not there.

The issue is sola scriptura. Until then, I would have to agree with you when you say that no one person has the whole truth because when you decide it is okay to depart from scripture and teach your own ideas, that is adding and taking away from the word of God because man is sinful and can't be trusted so that is why God had to have His words written down.

God's ways are higher than your ways. That is why I respect His words above your words.

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

God's word is truth.

 

[Foxfyre]

Foxfyre already invited other people to challenge me after not answering some of my posts, ignoring the parts from creeds I quoted and ignoring the Bible. If he/she wants to do it then he/she should do it in front of people who are qualified but what you are going to find out is that they believe like I do.



http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...teachers-faith-and-reason-11.html#post7956632

If someone teaches heresy or error in public then they are allowed to be challenged in public. Paul did this in Galatians 2:11 with Peter and it didn't wreck the church. This is also testified to in an issue of the Christian Research Journal which I have a copy so it isn't just my word but it is the word of the Church at large as well.

Well you keep saying I haven't answered your questions, but when I asked you what questions I hadn't answered and asked you to repeat them, you harshly replied that you didn't need any questions? And now you're still complaining that I'm not answering your questions.

I have not challenged your theology. I am only challenging your challenge of mine.

And you refuse. . . .repeat REFUSE. . . so far to quote me a single one of my words that you are challenging.

So I challenge you here and now Chuckt. If you cannot tell me what words of mine you are challenging, then you are a fraud and a trouble maker and are not representing your faith in an honorable way. And I have to believe you have no authority whatsoever to challenge anybody.

So there you have it. You can either accommodate my request to state what you are challenging or you will not. And if you will not, you do not serve well.

Are you saying I am a trouble maker but I refused to say what you have done wrong?

All of these posts and you can't find one single thing?

You didn't answer the questions, right? Is that because you don't care?

Or is it that you don't wish to address it?

If you addressed it, you can't pretend my questions are not there.

The issue is sola scriptura. Until then, I would have to agree with you when you say that no one person has the whole truth because when you decide it is okay to depart from scripture and teach your own ideas, that is adding and taking away from the word of God because man is sinful and can't be trusted so that is why God had to have His words written down.

God's ways are higher than your ways. That is why I respect His words above your words.

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

God's word is truth.

That is exactly what I am saying. I have repeatedly asked you to quote my words that you consider wrong. When you accuse me but refuse to do that you are indeed a troublemaker and troll. You can remedy that by simply quoting me my words you consider to be untruth.

And three times now I have asked you to repeat--without a half page of cut and pasted scripture please--whatever questions you have asked of me that you want answered. I would be more than happy to answer whatever you ask. I have quite a bit of patience, but not enough to hunt for an obscure question you believe to be buried somewhere in a large gray mass of cut and pasted material.

If you maintain that the scriptures you pasted are somehow questions asked of me, I will say that I have answered quite adequately. And now it is imperative on you to again point to specifically what you think I have not addressed.

 

[Chuckt]

That is exactly what I am saying. I have repeatedly asked you to quote my words that you consider wrong. When you accuse me but refuse to do that you are indeed a troublemaker and troll. You can remedy that by simply quoting me my words you consider to be untruth.

And three times now I have asked you to repeat--without a half page of cut and pasted scripture please--whatever questions you have asked of me that you want answered. I would be more than happy to answer whatever you ask. I have quite a bit of patience, but not enough to hunt for an obscure question you believe to be buried somewhere in a large gray mass of cut and pasted material.

If you maintain that the scriptures you pasted are somehow questions asked of me, I will say that I have answered quite adequately. And now it is imperative on you to again point to specifically what you think I have not addressed.

I had a family member who died because she wanted to be healed and she didn't take her medicine and she didn't take all of her chemotherapy treatments because it makes you sterile in her instance. She believed the wrong theology and she died.

I've watched what atheism has done to family members.

I have experienced cults at school and in my neighborhood.

I don't want to depart from the living word because I see the destructiveness of it.

You can't expect me to have the same fellowship or for me to be accountable with you or have a reciprocal or complimentary relationship with people who don't care if their theology hurts other people or not.

This is not a two way street where you get to do what you want and expect me to be accepting.

What people say has bad consequences and I've been yelled at by an atheist more than once on the boards that I can't control who is wreckless and parades around as a Christian.

 

[Foxfyre]

That is exactly what I am saying. I have repeatedly asked you to quote my words that you consider wrong. When you accuse me but refuse to do that you are indeed a troublemaker and troll. You can remedy that by simply quoting me my words you consider to be untruth.

And three times now I have asked you to repeat--without a half page of cut and pasted scripture please--whatever questions you have asked of me that you want answered. I would be more than happy to answer whatever you ask. I have quite a bit of patience, but not enough to hunt for an obscure question you believe to be buried somewhere in a large gray mass of cut and pasted material.

If you maintain that the scriptures you pasted are somehow questions asked of me, I will say that I have answered quite adequately. And now it is imperative on you to again point to specifically what you think I have not addressed.

I had a family member who died because she wanted to be healed and she didn't take her medicine and she didn't take all of her chemotherapy treatments because it makes you sterile in her instance. She believed the wrong theology and she died.

I've watched what atheism has done to family members.

I have experienced cults at school and in my neighborhood.

I don't want to depart from the living word because I see the destructiveness of it.

You can't expect me to have the same fellowship or for me to be accountable with you or have a reciprocal or complimentary relationship with people who don't care if their theology hurts other people or not.

This is not a two way street where you get to do what you want and expect me to be accepting.

What people say has bad consequences and I've been yelled at by an atheist more than once on the boards that I can't control who is wreckless and parades around as a Christian.

I expect nothng of anybody on this thread other than a reasonabile civility and willingness to discuss the topic.

Like you,

I too have seen what atheism has done to family members. as well as to friends, associates, neighbors, and coworkers. I also have witnessed what hatefulness, trotted out as Christianity, has done to people.

I have witnessed cults and have studied their methods closely; have actually helped lead a seminar exposing them at one point because their methods are insidious and dangerous to the vulnerable.

I also don't want to depart from the living word which is why I have dedicated a good portion of my life to learn and understand the original intent and history of the scriptures while also hearing what God has to teach me.

What is not a two way street? What do you mean by that? If you mean you get to dictate to me what the Bible says and I may not question it because you have 12 pastors in your church and also elders, i am sorry. That will not fly. Because that is exactly what a cult would teach.

So I do not expect you or anybody else to accept what I teach at face value, without testing it, without seeking the Holy Spirit's guidance. But I do expect the courtesy to be heard, to discuss, to explore, to learn, and to testify as much as any other person, including you, which you seem to presume to deny me.

So again if you presume to accuse me, you should tell me exactly what it is you accuse me of. You seem to say that I am hurting people, so quote me the exact words I have said that do that. If you cannot do that, then you bear false witness against me. And, if you'll check the scriptures, you'll find that Jesus and the Apostles described that as sin.

And I'm still waiting to hear those questions you have accused me of not answering too. If you can't do that, then again you bear false witness.

It is okay to challenge you too, yes?

 

[pacer]

I've watched what atheism has done to family members.

I too have seen what atheism has done to family members. as well as to friends, associates, neighbors, and coworkers.

You speak of atheism as though it was a disease. What has atheism done to your family members, friends, etc.

 

[Foxfyre]

I've watched what atheism has done to family members.

I too have seen what atheism has done to family members. as well as to friends, associates, neighbors, and coworkers.

You speak of atheism as though it was a disease. What has atheism done to your family members, friends, etc.

No, I didn't mean to come across like that. Sorry. Will explain it further if necessary. I was just assuring Chuckt that I am no stranger to the phenomenon.

 

[pacer]

No, I didn't mean to come across like that. Sorry. Will explain it further if necessary. I was just assuring Chuckt that I am no stranger to the phenomenon.

Foxfyre, In one post you say you have seen what atheism has done to family members, etc. and in the another you indicate you are no stranger to the phenomenon. Would you kindly explain the phenomenon to which to refer? What has atheism done to your family members, friends, etc.

 

[Foxfyre]

No, I didn't mean to come across like that. Sorry. Will explain it further if necessary. I was just assuring Chuckt that I am no stranger to the phenomenon.

Foxfyre, In one post you say you have seen what atheism has done to family members, etc. and in the another you indicate you are no stranger to the phenomenon. Would you kindly explain the phenomenon to which to refer? What has atheism done to your family members, friends, etc.

Well, to keep it simple, it has been my observation that the Atheists I have known, up close and personal, seem to lack a certain joy in their lives. That doesn't mean they don't have fun and/or are not fun people. Some of these I love very much and enjoy immensely just as I do some here at USMB. They have been good friends to me and others and are good people as much as any people are good. But they also have a side that seems to be more judgmental, angry, resentful, most especially re matters of faith, and sometimes they miss out on the sustaining strength that people of faith can draw on. It is most obvious when they are drawing near the end of their earthly life. They are often more afraid, and less at peace. They have no spiritual sight that allows them to go forth in assurance that this life is not all that there is.

But in fairness to the Atheists, there do also seem to be some Christians who seem to have adopted so critical, judgmental, angry, and authoritarian point of view that they also miss out on the joy. And while the average Atheist is often easy to love, the angry Christian, sometimes not so much.

 

[Chuckt]

I've watched what atheism has done to family members.

I too have seen what atheism has done to family members. as well as to friends, associates, neighbors, and coworkers.

You speak of atheism as though it was a disease. What has atheism done to your family members, friends, etc.

I have a friend who didn't like to date men who liked Star Trek and she was always dating around men regardless of their religious affiliation. She thought the men she met who liked Star Trek were weird. Most of the men who like Star Trek (and not all) are atheists.

Did you know that Gene Roddenberry made Star Trek?

Brannon Braga has said that Roddenberry made it known to the writers of Star Trek and Star Trek: The Next Generation that religion and mystical thinking were not to be included, and that in Roddenberry's vision of Earth's future, everyone was an atheist and better for it.[16

Gene Roddenberry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[pacer]

I have a friend who didn't like to date men who liked Star Trek and she was always dating around men regardless of their religious affiliation. She thought the men she met who liked Star Trek were weird. Most of the men who like Star Trek (and not all) are atheists.

How is this relevant to what atheism did to your family members?

 

[Avatar4321]

I've watched what atheism has done to family members.

You speak of atheism as though it was a disease. What has atheism done to your family members, friends, etc.

I have a friend who didn't like to date men who liked Star Trek and she was always dating around men regardless of their religious affiliation. She thought the men she met who liked Star Trek were weird. Most of the men who like Star Trek (and not all) are atheists.

Did you know that Gene Roddenberry made Star Trek?

Brannon Braga has said that Roddenberry made it known to the writers of Star Trek and Star Trek: The Next Generation that religion and mystical thinking were not to be included, and that in Roddenberry's vision of Earth's future, everyone was an atheist and better for it.[16

Gene Roddenberry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know a number of people who like star trek. None of them are atheists.

And yes many of them are weird.

 

[Foxfyre]

You speak of atheism as though it was a disease. What has atheism done to your family members, friends, etc.

I have a friend who didn't like to date men who liked Star Trek and she was always dating around men regardless of their religious affiliation. She thought the men she met who liked Star Trek were weird. Most of the men who like Star Trek (and not all) are atheists.

Did you know that Gene Roddenberry made Star Trek?

Brannon Braga has said that Roddenberry made it known to the writers of Star Trek and Star Trek: The Next Generation that religion and mystical thinking were not to be included, and that in Roddenberry's vision of Earth's future, everyone was an atheist and better for it.[16

Gene Roddenberry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know a number of people who like star trek. None of them are atheists.

And yes many of them are weird.

Ditto. Gene Roddenberry indeed was an American Humanist and professed Atheist, but he also was a man of high intelligence, vision, and integrity. And while he generally rejected all spiritual themes in the original Star Trek series and the first year of Next Generation--he was not realy all that personally involved after that--he did interject themes of tolerance and non-violence and mercy that many Christians related to. And he did not interject his Atheism into the plots. So I and many of my friends and family etc. are dedicated Trekkies--and okay, we might be a bit wierd too --and most of us are Christian, both the guys and the gals.

 

[Chuckt]

And he did not interject his Atheism into the plots. So I and many of my friends and family etc. are dedicated Trekkies--and okay, we might be a bit wierd too --and most of us are Christian, both the guys and the gals.

I'm not sure who created the Borg but they were a direct attack on God and the symbolism in the Bible.

You don't believe me? Check it out:

The Borg of Heaven

 

[Foxfyre]

The Borg were not a Roddenberry invention, but they were the bad guys, so whatever they were doing they will always be the villains.

But I'm still waiting Chuckt. You have accused me and will you admit now that you may have been bearing false witness or will you quote me my words that you consider heresy or hurting people?

And I'm still waiting for those questions you accuse me of not answering.

If you do not respond with the quotations and the questions, then I will know you are just spouting nonsense and are not to be taken seriously.

 

[Foxfyre]

Meanwhile, moving on, let's return to the concepts I hope I put into the OP.

Does anybody out there think intelligence, logic, reason are all gifts from God?

Or do they get in beween us and God?

 

[Avatar4321]

Meanwhile, moving on, let's return to the concepts I hope I put into the OP.

Does anybody out there think intelligence, logic, reason are all gifts from God?

Or do they get in beween us and God?

Every good thing we have is a gift from God. Our intelligence. Logic, reason, they are all of God.

Of course, I notice that many people misunderstand what logic and reason is. They also fail to acknowledge logic and reason's limitations.

Ive actually been reading about the gifts of God lately. And the statement "There is no such thing as a free lunch" is completely false because it's all free. Everything we have God has given us freely. He could take it away.

We think we work for everything. But really we don't. For example, our health. Yes, we can exercise and eat right. But does that ensure good health? Absolutely not. We are still mortal. We can still die. Our health is a gift from God.

Or the wealth we have accumulated. We may work hard for it. But working hard doesn't mean we will obtain work. It's a gift from God.

Everything we have is a gift from God. I think even many of the trials we have are gifts.

So deny not the gifts of God.

 

[Foxfyre]

Meanwhile, moving on, let's return to the concepts I hope I put into the OP.

Does anybody out there think intelligence, logic, reason are all gifts from God?

Or do they get in beween us and God?

Every good thing we have is a gift from God. Our intelligence. Logic, reason, they are all of God.

Of course, I notice that many people misunderstand what logic and reason is. They also fail to acknowledge logic and reason's limitations.

Ive actually been reading about the gifts of God lately. And the statement "There is no such thing as a free lunch" is completely false because it's all free. Everything we have God has given us freely. He could take it away.

We think we work for everything. But really we don't. For example, our health. Yes, we can exercise and eat right. But does that ensure good health? Absolutely not. We are still mortal. We can still die. Our health is a gift from God.

Or the wealth we have accumulated. We may work hard for it. But working hard doesn't mean we will obtain work. It's a gift from God.

Everything we have is a gift from God. I think even many of the trials we have are gifts.

So deny not the gifts of God.

No quarrel with this for the most part, but would you be opposed to looking at it at bit more closely?

The free lunch analogy is interesting. In our sociopolitical world, we can honestly say there is no free lunch. It may cost us nothing, but unless it is provided via manna from Heaven or we are fortunate enough to find food in the wild, our lunch cost somebody something in time, resources, and/or personal property.

But yes, my health, my intellect, my ability to reason and apply logic are mostly inate and given to me. I too like to think they are from God. I believe with all my heart that God gives all believers spiritual gifts that he uses for his purposes. And yet many unbelievers also have gifts and talents that are off the charts.

Chuckt brought up Gene Roddenberry for instance and what a brilliant man he was even though he achieved his success after he rejected the religion of his youth and declared himself an Atheist. Einstein was another, who though he refused the label of Atheist as he did believe in a form of intelligent design, he did not embrace Christianity or any other relationship with any form of deity.

Atheists often boast in a way that they are smarter, better educated, and far more logical and reasonable than we believers. Which leaves some Christians with the theory that the unbeliever's intellect often gets in the way of faith.

 

[pacer]

Atheists often boast in a way that they are smarter, better educated, and far more logical and reasonable than we believers. Which leaves some Christians with the theory that the unbeliever's intellect often gets in the way of faith.

It is not that intellect stands in the way of faith. It is non-believers put their trust in science.

 

[Chuckt]

But I'm still waiting Chuckt. You have accused me and will you admit now that you may have been bearing false witness or will you quote me my words that you consider heresy or hurting people?

And I'm still waiting for those questions you accuse me of not answering.

If you do not respond with the quotations and the questions, then I will know you are just spouting nonsense and are not to be taken seriously.

I don't have anything to say to you right now.

 

[Foxfyre]

But I'm still waiting Chuckt. You have accused me and will you admit now that you may have been bearing false witness or will you quote me my words that you consider heresy or hurting people?

And I'm still waiting for those questions you accuse me of not answering.

If you do not respond with the quotations and the questions, then I will know you are just spouting nonsense and are not to be taken seriously.

I don't have anything to say to you right now.

I agree. You probably don't. So you accuse me yet will not put forth the evidence. And that, my friend, is bearing false witness. What do your 12 pastors and your elders say about that?