Orthodox Christianity, False Teachers, Faith, and Reason

[Chuckt]

How do you determine who is qualified to speak what the Bible says when it speaks? Where do you get YOUR authority to judge my understanding of the Bible?

God.

 

[Chuckt]

This is why in my conviction, I just have to believe that God is not limited and does not limit himself in how he carries out his plan among us. Now Chuckt seems to think such a concept is dividing the word of God and therefore is heresy. I just can't see it that way.

I am hoping somebody who agrees with him will explain his point of view in plain English as he appears unable or unwilling to do so.

I've been in the Church for nearly 30 years.
My Church has 12 pastors on staff and elders.
I think any Church will do really but if you disagree then you can always challenge me in front of the pastors and elders and let them do the same to you.

 

[koshergrl]

Is heresy actually ever mentioned in the NT?

I am with you on this I think, foxfyre. I can understand righteous anger but I'm not sure exactly what we're supposed to DO about it aside from what the NT tells us...

and the NT tells us to deal with one another in love.

 

[Foxfyre]

This is why in my conviction, I just have to believe that God is not limited and does not limit himself in how he carries out his plan among us. Now Chuckt seems to think such a concept is dividing the word of God and therefore is heresy. I just can't see it that way.

I am hoping somebody who agrees with him will explain his point of view in plain English as he appears unable or unwilling to do so.

I've been in the Church for nearly 30 years.
My Church has 12 pastors on staff and elders.
I think any Church will do really but if you disagree then you can always challenge me in front of the pastors and elders and let them do the same to you.

Well Chuck, I refuse to fight with anybody about this stuff though I enjoy discussing/debating it with anybody who also enjoys the exercise.

But in all due respect, I've been in the Church for decades longer than you, and I don't know how your church having 12 pastors on staff and elders has anything to do with your authority to judge me and tell me that I am not speaking the truth.

Most especially when you refuse, after being asked several times now, to tell me exactly what it is that I am saying that is not the truth.

Unless you are willing to do that, then I have to believe you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

But I can take comfort from the scripture in KG's sig line:
"Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you and say all kinds of evil things about you falsely on account of me." Matt 5:11 (I think the Lord may have given you that scripture for me today, KG. )

 

[koshergrl]

Since when are believers supposed to *challenge* each other, and didn't the Jews get in a LOT of trouble for becoming so addicted to the law that they missed the Messiah?

 

[Chuckt]

Since when are believers supposed to *challenge* each other, and didn't the Jews get in a LOT of trouble for becoming so addicted to the law that they missed the Messiah?

Foxfyre already invited other people to challenge me after not answering some of my posts, ignoring the parts from creeds I quoted and ignoring the Bible. If he/she wants to do it then he/she should do it in front of people who are qualified but what you are going to find out is that they believe like I do.

I am hoping somebody who agrees with him will explain his point of view in plain English as he appears unable or unwilling to do so.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...teachers-faith-and-reason-11.html#post7956632

If someone teaches heresy or error in public then they are allowed to be challenged in public. Paul did this in Galatians 2:11 with Peter and it didn't wreck the church. This is also testified to in an issue of the Christian Research Journal which I have a copy so it isn't just my word but it is the word of the Church at large as well.

 

[umojamel]

In the beginning, Humankind existed in an environment that was OMNI-dangerous, as in powerful predators, lightning, floods...

But Humankind still had to hunt, compete, and carry bloody carcasses back to camp.

So Humankind created rituals to gird their loins as it were with some sort of psychological protection, some sort of antidote to FEAR.

Those needs and those rituals developed into religion, replete with all-powerful spirits of protection.

Religion became a habit; still is.

 

[Foxfyre]

Since when are believers supposed to *challenge* each other, and didn't the Jews get in a LOT of trouble for becoming so addicted to the law that they missed the Messiah?

Foxfyre already invited other people to challenge me after not answering some of my posts, ignoring the parts from creeds I quoted and ignoring the Bible. If he/she wants to do it then he/she should do it in front of people who are qualified but what you are going to find out is that they believe like I do.

I am hoping somebody who agrees with him will explain his point of view in plain English as he appears unable or unwilling to do so.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...teachers-faith-and-reason-11.html#post7956632

If someone teaches heresy or error in public then they are allowed to be challenged in public. Paul did this in Galatians 2:11 with Peter and it didn't wreck the church. This is also testified to in an issue of the Christian Research Journal which I have a copy so it isn't just my word but it is the word of the Church at large as well.

I welcome the challenge. But so far you have not cited a single word I have spoken that you challenge. All you do is quote scripture and tell me I am not speaking the truth. But you will not tell me what I have said that is untrue.

Is that what your pastors and elders teach you to do? If so, I am very grateful not to be associated with your church.

 

[Chuckt]

But in all due respect, I've been in the Church for decades longer than you, and I don't know how your church having 12 pastors on staff and elders has anything to do with your authority to judge me and tell me that I am not speaking the truth.

Most especially when you refuse, after being asked several times now, to tell me exactly what it is that I am saying that is not the truth.

And I have what I believe documented by counter-cult ministries that we can judge and collectively we have more experience in the church than you alone.

This is in keeping with other biblical passages, such as 1 Corinthians 5:11, 13, which make it clear that we are both to judge and to act in accordance with that judgment (and 1 John 4:1-6 even extends this to judging spirits).

http://www.watchman.org/blog/index.php/judge-not/

In Matthew 7:2-5, Jesus warns against judging someone else for his sin when you yourself are sinning even worse. That is the kind of judging Jesus commanded us not to do. If a believer sees another believer sinning, it is his Christian duty to lovingly and respectfully confront the person with his sin (Matthew 18:15-17). This is not judging, but rather pointing out the truth in hope—and with the ultimate goal—of bringing repentance in the other person (James 5:20) and restoration to the fellowship.

What does the Bible mean that we are not to judge others?

On the other hand, in Luke 17:3, Jesus instructs us “If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.”(KJV) Jesus does not tell us to keep silent about being offended, hurt, or abused. He tells us to reprimand and express strong disapproval to (rebuke) those who do something hurtful or offensive to us.

You're Not Supposed To Judge Me- The Difference Between Judging and

When we remove the beam of legalism from our eyes then we can begin to see what God expects of us, and then we are able to help others who are stumbling also. The point of this whole passage was a warning about judging others based upon their own standards because they would be judged according to their own standards, which they themselves could not even live up to. Jesus also reinforces this in John 7:24 where He tells the crowds not to judge according to mere appearances (their superficial understanding of Him healing a man on the Sabbath), but they were to use a righteous judgment. If this is not the case then Jesus Christ contradicted Himself in Luke 12:54-59, where he tells the people to judge for themselves what they were seeing and hearing from His ministry to see if it was right according to what was taught in the Scriptures concerning the Messiah.

bibleteacher.org: Can Or Should Christians Judge One Another, by Dr. Mike Willmouth

Yes, we are commanded to judge. Matthew 7:15-20 says, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." How will you know the false prophets? You have to judge them by their fruit.

Liberty Gospel Tracts - Previous Questions and Answers - Are we supposed to judge others, or sit and remain silent?

John 7:24 Jesus says: “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.” What Jesus does tell us is not to judge by our own opinions, but instead judge by the word of God, that is what it means to judge righteously. He always encouraged the people to judge. God told Israel to judge the prophets in the Old Testament. He had the true prophets judge the false but the people reacted saying the very same things people are saying today. Your being negative oh you never have anything good to say. In the New Testament we are told to judge prophecy, to discern, to test the spirits and we are told to test ALL things. We are told to do this because it helps keep us away from what is false and evil. The apostle Paul showed us how to judge so there would be no second guesswork. The apostle Paul said, “If anyone preaches another gospel let him be accursed” Would anyone say to Paul's face “your judging.” In 2 Thess. 3:14-15 “And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.” Strong guidelines that many avoid to do today. These are done not to condemn but to bring repentance and restoration.

The Cult of "Do not Judge"

Are we being loving if we allow our fellow brethren to remain in error and even deceive others? Of course not. Loving others requires that we graciously correct them when they fall into error (Matthew 18; 1 Corinthians 1:11; Galatians 6:1). Those who err do not necessarily know they are in error; they are possibly deceived or ignorant. So we gently and carefully correct the error in regard to teaching, no matter what the situation. After all, this is one of the responsibilities of the church: to teach sound doctrine and correct erroneous teaching (2 Timothy 2:25, 3:16; Titus 2:1). For example, we have to use discernment (judging between right and wrong) if we are to obey verses like 1 Corinthians 5:11–13; 6:4; 2 Thessalonians 3:6; 1 Timothy 6:20; and Titus 3:9, just to name a few.

Does the Bible Tell Christians to Judge Not? - Answers in Genesis

How many more examples from the web do you want? I can probably find a dozen more.

 

[Foxfyre]

I said we should not judge? I do not believe I ever said that. So if that is what you are accusing me of saying, then I say quote me my exact words - in context. If you are not able to do that then you should ask forgiveness for bearing false witness.

The question I asked was by what authority you judge me. You replied that you have been in the church 30 years and have 12 pastors and elders. What sort of answer is that? Did your pastors and elders give you the authority to judge me? How did they do that? But I agree with you that there is no belief worth having that we are unwilling to have challenged.

And then I told you that I welcomed challenge of any belief I hold or profess. And I asked you to quote me the words I have said that you challenge. That is a reasonable request. And if you cannot do that, then you again should ask forgiveness for bearing false witness.

 

[Chuckt]

The question I asked was by what authority you judge me.

I already answered you.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...teachers-faith-and-reason-11.html#post7956733

 

[Chuckt]

I said we should not judge? I do not believe I ever said that. So if that is what you are accusing me of saying, then I say quote me my exact words - in context. If you are not able to do that then you should ask forgiveness for bearing false witness.

This is what you said:

But in all due respect, I've been in the Church for decades longer than you, and I don't know how your church having 12 pastors on staff and elders has anything to do with your authority to judge me and tell me that I am not speaking the truth.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...teachers-faith-and-reason-12.html#post7957190

I took it as if you were implying that we have no right to judge. That question shouldn't even be asked because it is a "given" and God gives us the right to judge.

Isaiah 61:8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

 

[BreezeWood]

Remittance is accomplished by each individual and may have but one path to follow - but that path has nothing to do with an individual of a previous existence JC - nor does a Spirit necessarily ever need a presence with God as being only a foolish connotation of indulgent worshiping.



.

My question to you is, "If you can remit your sins, then why does everyone have to die at the end of their life?"

Man sinned. The wages of sin is death. God sent the curse and man died. If you could remit your sin then why will your life end like everyone else has at the end of their life? If you can't repay God so you can live forever now and never die on earth then what makes you think you can pay your way out of hell?

C: what makes you think you can pay your way out of hell?

there is but one Commandment Chuck - Remittance to the Everlasting or Perish - - > there is no Hell.


more specifically mankind is expelled from the Garden - (a tree of Knowledge is not necessarily a precursor of sin)

C: Man sinned

C, that is your (Biblical) interpretation.

The Threads intent ??? - would be for curiosity etc., no more free lunch - pay the price for knowledge ... and receive the Reward.


a person must sin first to become a sinner - JC never sinned, he new his death would set him free as how it was accomplished, though seemingly not the script as thought - and certainly his Spirit ascended ...

C: If you could remit your sin then why will your life end like everyone else has at the end of their life?

?????

the Physiology is a time capsule granted by God - Time for the Spirit to prove its worthiness by the end Goal of Remittance, to the OuterWorld of the Everlasting - and a possible life of eternity.

Foxfyre: Meanwhile, returning to the theme of logic and reason in the context of orthodox Christianity

in the context of orthodox Christianity

10/4, so sad - the Latin Bible.

 

[Foxfyre]

The question I asked was by what authority you judge me.

I already answered you.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...teachers-faith-and-reason-11.html#post7956733

Ah okay. So it has nothing to do with how many years you have been in the Church or how many pastors you have or that you have elders. Finally we found someting to agree on! (We could compare people of authority in our respective congregations or denominations as to who has the most experience, I suppose, but I think the very angels in heaven might snicker at something so absurd. (The angels thing is a metaphor, Chuck, and not to be interpretedl literally.)

Wait, make that two things we agree on. We also agree that we should be glad to have our beliefs challenged. I have long held the conviction that if my opinions, convictions, and beliefs cannot hold up under scrutiny, they are not worth having.

Now, what does God specifically give you authority to judge me on or to challenge me about? Are you given the gift of mind reading? Clairvoyance? Or are you bound by what you hear/read me say? So since you have again and again implied that that am 1) not worthy to testify and/or 2) speak untruth, I still need for you to quote me my exact words, in context, and tell me how they are not truth.

 

[Chuckt]

The question I asked was by what authority you judge me.

I already answered you.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...teachers-faith-and-reason-11.html#post7956733

Ah okay. So it has nothing to do with how many years you have been in the Church or how many pastors you have or that you have elders. Finally we found someting to agree on! (We could compare people of authority in our respective congregations or denominations as to who has the most experience, I suppose, but I think the very angels in heaven might snicker at something so absurd. (The angels thing is a metaphor, Chuck, and not to be interpretedl literally.)

Wait, make that two things we agree on. We also agree that we should be glad to have our beliefs challenged. I have long held the conviction that if my opinions, convictions, and beliefs cannot hold up under scrutiny, they are not worth having.

Now, what does God specifically give you authority to judge me on or to challenge me about? Are you given the gift of mind reading? Clairvoyance? Or are you bound by what you hear/read me say? So since you have again and again implied that that am 1) not worthy to testify and/or 2) speak untruth, I still need for you to quote me my exact words, in context, and tell me how they are not truth.

You can have someone sit in a pew for many years and not grow at the same rate as someone who studies their Bible for one year.

I judge you by the word of God.

Some people think you can't judge someone's heart but I think you can and you have to be careful because some people say stuff that they don't mean but the Bible says a little window to the heart opens up when we speak:

Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

But you have to be very very very careful taking my advice on the heart but we can judge speech.

I think you need to go back and answer the unanswered questions from me to you and I think you should honestly answer them for yourself.

The issue is sola scriptura. I believe it. The Church teaches it.
The issue is truth and authority. God is the source of all truth and His word is truth.
Man is sinful so man's words do not have the same authority as the Bible. God wrote it down and all words are God breathed and the construction is "all writings God breathed" in 2 Peter 3:16 and the scriptures are referred to the truth. Since man is sinful, you can't as a human being have the same truth as written down in scripture because all have fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) so that is why God have to deliver it once and for all to the saints (Jude 3) and we're going to fight for it (contend) because Jude tells us to contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints and it came from the Apostles and Prophets (Ephesians 2:20) which is the foundation of the Church with Jesus being the chief cornerstone and God is going to ask you one day to give an account.

The argument is that the New Testament cannot possibly be scripture and what Paul is referring to is the Old Testament. This is a wrong assumption because of I Timothy 5:18:

"For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward."-I Timothy 5:18

Paul links scripture with Deuteronomy 25:4 and Luke 10:7.

The issue is that men are only allowed to teach other men.


Love in Knowledge and Judgment
By Chuckt (C) 2008

1 Corinthians 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

Speaking out about an issue has no bearing on whether we love Jesus.

Philippians 1:10 That ye may approve (dokimazo: test as in testing metals) things that are excellent (diaphero: that which differ); that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

When it says to approve the things which are excellent, it means to test by being discerning what is different and what is more excellent. If I am doing what (Philippians 1:10) the word says, how am I not loving Jesus by following the example? Their example is basing "love" on feeling instead of loving according to knowledge:

Phlippians 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and [in] all judgment;

Love is supposed to be in knowledge and judgment.

 

[Avatar4321]

Matthew 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Matthew 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

If God's word falls on good ground, there can be a 100 fold return. The Bible totally contradicts you which is why you haven't presented the truth.

I fail to see how that scripture is at all revelant to anything foxfyre said. There is nothing to what she has said that indicates that God's word cannot bring forth fruit.

The parable is about the word of God and the Bible says that God's word is truth.

If we weren't supposed to know truth then God's word wouldn't have said that you are without excuse:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

And God's Word is Jesus Christ. He is the Word. He is the way, the truth, and the light.

And while Christ is the greatest one to have walked this earth, There is nothing Foxfyre said that is relevant to those scriptures.

 

[Avatar4321]

And you want me to believe in a God that can't give you the whole truth or you want me to walk with you when you don't have enough truth?

God could give you the whole truth but it would likely go to your condemnation. He gives us truth as quickly as we are ready to accept it as an act of mercy. If there is any truth in the universe that would keep me from the Lord, I would ask Him not to give it to me until I am prepared spiritually for that truth.

That makes little sense that God would try to keep us from being condemned when people are already condemned:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Knowing truth as a Christian does not condemn me:

Romans 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

What you are teaching is foreign to me.

It very may well be that what I teach is foreign to you. I teach only what the Lord has revealed to me. He may not have revealed the same things to you. I dont know what He has revealed to you if anything. Then again I dont know what He has revealed to anyone but myself, unless He tells me.

A man can only be saved as fast as He gains knowledge. Without knowledge from God, none of us can be saved. The scriptures are useless if we dont have His word revealed to us through the power of the Spirit.

 

[Foxfyre]

Since when are believers supposed to *challenge* each other, and didn't the Jews get in a LOT of trouble for becoming so addicted to the law that they missed the Messiah?

Foxfyre already invited other people to challenge me after not answering some of my posts, ignoring the parts from creeds I quoted and ignoring the Bible. If he/she wants to do it then he/she should do it in front of people who are qualified but what you are going to find out is that they believe like I do.

I am hoping somebody who agrees with him will explain his point of view in plain English as he appears unable or unwilling to do so.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...teachers-faith-and-reason-11.html#post7956632

If someone teaches heresy or error in public then they are allowed to be challenged in public. Paul did this in Galatians 2:11 with Peter and it didn't wreck the church. This is also testified to in an issue of the Christian Research Journal which I have a copy so it isn't just my word but it is the word of the Church at large as well.

Well you keep saying I haven't answered your questions, but when I asked you what questions I hadn't answered and asked you to repeat them, you harshly replied that you didn't need any questions? And now you're still complaining that I'm not answering your questions.

I have not challenged your theology. I am only challenging your challenge of mine.

And you refuse. . . .repeat REFUSE. . . so far to quote me a single one of my words that you are challenging.

So I challenge you here and now Chuckt. If you cannot tell me what words of mine you are challenging, then you are a fraud and a trouble maker and are not representing your faith in an honorable way. And I have to believe you have no authority whatsoever to challenge anybody.

So there you have it. You can either accommodate my request to state what you are challenging or you will not. And if you will not, you do not serve well.

 

[Foxfyre]

I fail to see how that scripture is at all revelant to anything foxfyre said. There is nothing to what she has said that indicates that God's word cannot bring forth fruit.

The parable is about the word of God and the Bible says that God's word is truth.

If we weren't supposed to know truth then God's word wouldn't have said that you are without excuse:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

And God's Word is Jesus Christ. He is the Word. He is the way, the truth, and the light.

And while Christ is the greatest one to have walked this earth, There is nothing Foxfyre said that is relevant to those scriptures.

LOL. I do hope, Avatar, that you are referring to Chuckt's scriptures and not the ones you have posted when you say there is nothing I have said that is relevant.

It isn't that the scripture that anybody has posted here is irrelevent. It is ALL relevant. And within its own context, it is all valid.

My quarrel with Chuckt is that he accuses me but refuses to state evidence to show that I am guilty of whatever he is accusing me.

 

[Foxfyre]

Since when are believers supposed to *challenge* each other, and didn't the Jews get in a LOT of trouble for becoming so addicted to the law that they missed the Messiah?

This is a good point too. But the Apostle Paul at various time counseled us to accommodate those of different beliefs - a form of "When in Rome do as the Romans do" sort of thing. Respect other people's food taboos and such.

So since Chuckt chooses to be confrontational and accusatory instead of choosing to instruct me within a concept of love and grace, I gave him a sort of - 'as the Romans do' - challenge.

As I said, I won't fight with anybody about this stuff. But the Lord has blessed me so much; my relationship with the Christ is so precious to me, I do feel sometimes think it is important to make sure that others have opportunity to see Him as I see Him--a God of grace, mercy, compassion, and hope for all who love him and seek Him.

So when He is presented otherwise, I sometimes feel compelled to make sure my understanding of the truth is also out there.