Orthodox Christianity, False Teachers, Faith, and Reason

[Foxfyre]

I suppose it would be to much to ask, if JC had rather been Chosen by God as an example - for his being a sinless man than the Biblical interpretation, would he still not have been a Prophet by his own right irregardless his delusions and by the sacrifice he willingly made on the Cross on behalf of the wishes of the Almighty ?

You know, I don't know BW. I long ago chose not to dictate to God how he is required to do anything and believe whatever He chooses to do is possible. But if we stick to what the prophecies inform us, the scriptural eye witness testimonies and what Jesus said about himself, he was God, he was fulfillment of prophecy and the Law. As the man Jesus, he was teacher/rabbi and prophet, he was the perfect Lamb of God who gave his life to cover our sins, he was crucified, died, was buried, he rose again, and he is with us as counselor, in spirit form, forever. So 'chosen by God' is not really an option in my belief.

Jeremiah: ...There is only one way. Not many, Loa. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life and no man comes to the Father except through the Son.

There is only one way. Not many ... and no man comes to the Father except through the Son.


Remittance is accomplished by each individual and may have but one path to follow - but that path has nothing to do with an individual of a previous existence JC - nor does a Spirit necessarily ever need a presence with God as being only a foolish connotation of indulgent worshiping.

Foxfyre: So 'chosen by God' is not really an option in my belief.

let that be so - but likewise let there be the truth in the Bible that is not the same and that when revealed will lead to a truer meaning as sought and not yet revealed.
the Bible unlike Latin is not meant to be a dead language.

.

Explain more on the bolded sentence please. I don't want to comment until I'm clear on what you are saying.

 

[Foxfyre]

Meanwhile, returning to the theme of logic and reason in the context of orthodox Christianity, could we discuss why so many are so bothered by another person's different interpretation of scripture or different views in matters of religion?

Do you think it wrong or possibly even evil to even suggest that there are differences? Can people hold opposing positions on matters of Bible, faith, salvation, etc. and still be acceptable to God?

I would appreciate some honest answers from the heart on that rather than long pastes of multiple scriptures.

If I do not respond immediately it is because I have responsibilities at church and also to provide medical taxi service to elderly loved ones that will take much of my day today. But I will return by late afternoon and will acknowledge or respond to anyone who will answer my question.

 

[pacer]

I'd like to know what distinguishes a 'fundie Christian' from a 'non-fundie Chrisitian'? A set of beliefs, if so then which ones and how do they differ? A doctrine? What?

Fundamentalist is one who maintains strict adherence to the literal interpretation of Bible whereas a relativist is one who holds the view that there are no absolute truths…that truth is relative to the individual according to one’s own perception and consideration.

Relativism

 

[Foxfyre]

I'd like to know what distinguishes a 'fundie Christian' from a 'non-fundie Chrisitian'? A set of beliefs, if so then which ones and how do they differ? A doctrine? What?

Fundamentalist is one who maintains strict adherence to the literal interpretation of Bible whereas a relativist is one who holds the view that there are no absolute truths…that truth is relative to the individual according to one’s own perception and consideration.

Relativism

And moving that just a tad further into the logic and reason realm, we run into problems when there are fundamentalists who disagree with each other on what the literal interpretation of the Bible is.

I have been watching the feud, for instance, between super evangelists Osteen and Hinn, each essentially declaring the other to be the heretic. And yet we have the faithful proclaiming one or the other as true (not false) teachers, some think both are, some think neither are.

Is it not possible that all parties have pieces of the truth? And all are missing the boat somewhere?

 

[Foxfyre]

I also would say there is a middle ground in there between fundamentalist and relativist, Pacer. There is a very large group of us who belong to neither camp. We believe that truth is absolute, but that no human is the repository for the whole truth on anything and therefore we must lean on the Holy Spirit to teach us the truths we need at any given time. None of us are as smart as God and when we presume to know everything God knows, we are improperly taking the place of God.

 

[Chuckt]

I also would say there is a middle ground in there between fundamentalist and relativist, Pacer. There is a very large group of us who belong to neither camp. We believe that truth is absolute, but that no human is the repository for the whole truth on anything and therefore we must lean on the Holy Spirit to teach us the truths we need at any given time. None of us are as smart as God and when we presume to know everything God knows, we are improperly taking the place of God.

And you want me to believe in a God that can't give you the whole truth or you want me to walk with you when you don't have enough truth?

 

[Foxfyre]

I also would say there is a middle ground in there between fundamentalist and relativist, Pacer. There is a very large group of us who belong to neither camp. We believe that truth is absolute, but that no human is the repository for the whole truth on anything and therefore we must lean on the Holy Spirit to teach us the truths we need at any given time. None of us are as smart as God and when we presume to know everything God knows, we are improperly taking the place of God.

And you want me to believe in a God that can't give you the whole truth or you want me to walk with you when you don't have enough truth?

Could you please point to any words I have presented here that suggests that I want you to believe in a God that can't give you the whole truth? I do not believe I have said that. God IS the whole truth since He is and all that he orders is what is.

I have said I don't believe any human is capable of possessing the whole truth. Such a human would be as all knowing and powerful as God and I do not believe that any of us are.

 

[Chuckt]

I also would say there is a middle ground in there between fundamentalist and relativist, Pacer. There is a very large group of us who belong to neither camp. We believe that truth is absolute, but that no human is the repository for the whole truth on anything and therefore we must lean on the Holy Spirit to teach us the truths we need at any given time. None of us are as smart as God and when we presume to know everything God knows, we are improperly taking the place of God.

And you want me to believe in a God that can't give you the whole truth or you want me to walk with you when you don't have enough truth?

Could you please point to any words I have presented here that suggests that I want you to believe in a God that can't give you the whole truth? I do not believe I have said that. God IS the whole truth since He is and all that he orders is what is.

I have said I don't believe any human is capable of possessing the whole truth. Such a human would be as all knowing and powerful as God and I do not believe that any of us are.

Matthew 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Matthew 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

If God's word falls on good ground, there can be a 100 fold return. The Bible totally contradicts you which is why you haven't presented the truth.

 

[Foxfyre]

And you want me to believe in a God that can't give you the whole truth or you want me to walk with you when you don't have enough truth?

Could you please point to any words I have presented here that suggests that I want you to believe in a God that can't give you the whole truth? I do not believe I have said that. God IS the whole truth since He is and all that he orders is what is.

I have said I don't believe any human is capable of possessing the whole truth. Such a human would be as all knowing and powerful as God and I do not believe that any of us are.

Matthew 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Matthew 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

If God's word falls on good ground, there can be a 100 fold return. The Bible totally contradicts you which is why you haven't presented the truth.

I know the scriptures, Chuck, in several different versions of the Bible by heart.

How does the Bible contradict me? I can't see any relevance to what I said and the scriptures you just cut and pasted. Please explain how I am not presenting the truth? Do you deny that the Lord God is all truth? That what he has created and what he does is truth? Do you resist a concept that we humans, created by God, are not God and therefore do not know all that he knows?

What is your problem with that?

 

[Foxfyre]

And now I am scheduled to speak at a luncheon in a few minutes and then have to drive an elderly uncle to the doctor so I'll be out for a few hours. But I will return, just like a bad penny.

 

[Chuckt]

Could you please point to any words I have presented here that suggests that I want you to believe in a God that can't give you the whole truth? I do not believe I have said that. God IS the whole truth since He is and all that he orders is what is.

I have said I don't believe any human is capable of possessing the whole truth. Such a human would be as all knowing and powerful as God and I do not believe that any of us are.

Matthew 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Matthew 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

If God's word falls on good ground, there can be a 100 fold return. The Bible totally contradicts you which is why you haven't presented the truth.

I know the scriptures, Chuck, in several different versions of the Bible by heart.

How does the Bible contradict me? I can't see any relevance to what I said and the scriptures you just cut and pasted. Please explain how I am not presenting the truth? Do you deny that the Lord God is all truth? That what he has created and what he does is truth? Do you resist a concept that we humans, created by God, are not God and therefore do not know all that he knows?

What is your problem with that?

If the truth is hidden, it is hidden to those who are lost.

But if our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
- King James Version (1611) - View 1611 Bible Scan

2 CORINTHIANS 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

 

[Avatar4321]

I also would say there is a middle ground in there between fundamentalist and relativist, Pacer. There is a very large group of us who belong to neither camp. We believe that truth is absolute, but that no human is the repository for the whole truth on anything and therefore we must lean on the Holy Spirit to teach us the truths we need at any given time. None of us are as smart as God and when we presume to know everything God knows, we are improperly taking the place of God.

And you want me to believe in a God that can't give you the whole truth or you want me to walk with you when you don't have enough truth?

God could give you the whole truth but it would likely go to your condemnation. He gives us truth as quickly as we are ready to accept it as an act of mercy. If there is any truth in the universe that would keep me from the Lord, I would ask Him not to give it to me until I am prepared spiritually for that truth.

I think the Lord wants to reveal much to us that we are simply unprepared to recieve because of our pride and the hardness of our hearts.

As for God not wanting to walk with you, I dont see anyone saying any such thing so im not sure where you got it.

 

[Avatar4321]

And you want me to believe in a God that can't give you the whole truth or you want me to walk with you when you don't have enough truth?

Could you please point to any words I have presented here that suggests that I want you to believe in a God that can't give you the whole truth? I do not believe I have said that. God IS the whole truth since He is and all that he orders is what is.

I have said I don't believe any human is capable of possessing the whole truth. Such a human would be as all knowing and powerful as God and I do not believe that any of us are.

Matthew 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Matthew 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

If God's word falls on good ground, there can be a 100 fold return. The Bible totally contradicts you which is why you haven't presented the truth.

I fail to see how that scripture is at all revelant to anything foxfyre said. There is nothing to what she has said that indicates that God's word cannot bring forth fruit.

 

[Chuckt]

Could you please point to any words I have presented here that suggests that I want you to believe in a God that can't give you the whole truth? I do not believe I have said that. God IS the whole truth since He is and all that he orders is what is.

I have said I don't believe any human is capable of possessing the whole truth. Such a human would be as all knowing and powerful as God and I do not believe that any of us are.

Matthew 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Matthew 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

If God's word falls on good ground, there can be a 100 fold return. The Bible totally contradicts you which is why you haven't presented the truth.

I fail to see how that scripture is at all revelant to anything foxfyre said. There is nothing to what she has said that indicates that God's word cannot bring forth fruit.

The parable is about the word of God and the Bible says that God's word is truth.

If we weren't supposed to know truth then God's word wouldn't have said that you are without excuse:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

[Chuckt]

I also would say there is a middle ground in there between fundamentalist and relativist, Pacer. There is a very large group of us who belong to neither camp. We believe that truth is absolute, but that no human is the repository for the whole truth on anything and therefore we must lean on the Holy Spirit to teach us the truths we need at any given time. None of us are as smart as God and when we presume to know everything God knows, we are improperly taking the place of God.

And you want me to believe in a God that can't give you the whole truth or you want me to walk with you when you don't have enough truth?

God could give you the whole truth but it would likely go to your condemnation. He gives us truth as quickly as we are ready to accept it as an act of mercy. If there is any truth in the universe that would keep me from the Lord, I would ask Him not to give it to me until I am prepared spiritually for that truth.

That makes little sense that God would try to keep us from being condemned when people are already condemned:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Knowing truth as a Christian does not condemn me:

Romans 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

What you are teaching is foreign to me.

 

[Foxfyre]

Matthew 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Matthew 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

If God's word falls on good ground, there can be a 100 fold return. The Bible totally contradicts you which is why you haven't presented the truth.

I know the scriptures, Chuck, in several different versions of the Bible by heart.

How does the Bible contradict me? I can't see any relevance to what I said and the scriptures you just cut and pasted. Please explain how I am not presenting the truth? Do you deny that the Lord God is all truth? That what he has created and what he does is truth? Do you resist a concept that we humans, created by God, are not God and therefore do not know all that he knows?

What is your problem with that?

If the truth is hidden, it is hidden to those who are lost.

But if our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
- King James Version (1611) - View 1611 Bible Scan

2 CORINTHIANS 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Will you just answer the questions please Chuck? We cannot have a conversation if all you do is to keep posting snippets of scripture with no information about what they are supposed to mean to me. I have also posted a lot of scripture in this and other threads, and I believe what I have posted is just as valid as what you have posted.

The Gospel is the account of what God has done for us in sending us the Christ. The Gospel is NOT God. The Gospel is what we are given to believe about God. I ask you again to be specific about what I have said in error about that.

 

[Chuckt]

I know the scriptures, Chuck, in several different versions of the Bible by heart.

How does the Bible contradict me? I can't see any relevance to what I said and the scriptures you just cut and pasted. Please explain how I am not presenting the truth? Do you deny that the Lord God is all truth? That what he has created and what he does is truth? Do you resist a concept that we humans, created by God, are not God and therefore do not know all that he knows?

What is your problem with that?

If the truth is hidden, it is hidden to those who are lost.

But if our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
- King James Version (1611) - View 1611 Bible Scan

2 CORINTHIANS 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Will you just answer the questions please Chuck? We cannot have a conversation if all you do is to keep posting snippets of scripture with no information about what they are supposed to mean to me. I have also posted a lot of scripture in this and other threads, and I believe what I have posted is just as valid as what you have posted.

The Gospel is the account of what God has done for us in sending us the Christ. The Gospel is NOT God. The Gospel is what we are given to believe about God. I ask you again to be specific about what I have said in error about that.

I think you don't understand what I said because you don't understand one of the passages.

The Bible is TRUTH. It is the way. If I had more time, I would reverse engineer the rest of the verses on truth.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

This is the apostolic message which is the Bible. Our Bible is truth.

John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

 

[Foxfyre]

If the truth is hidden, it is hidden to those who are lost.

But if our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
- King James Version (1611) - View 1611 Bible Scan

2 CORINTHIANS 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Will you just answer the questions please Chuck? We cannot have a conversation if all you do is to keep posting snippets of scripture with no information about what they are supposed to mean to me. I have also posted a lot of scripture in this and other threads, and I believe what I have posted is just as valid as what you have posted.

The Gospel is the account of what God has done for us in sending us the Christ. The Gospel is NOT God. The Gospel is what we are given to believe about God. I ask you again to be specific about what I have said in error about that.

I think you don't understand what I said because you don't understand one of the passages.

The Bible is TRUTH. It is the way. If I had more time, I would reverse engineer the rest of the verses on truth.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

This is the apostolic message which is the Bible. Our Bible is truth.

John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

I don't understand because the passages you are quoting don't make sense within the context of the sincere and honest question I asked you to address. I do know my Bible well enough to know that teachers are supposed to teach, not just quote snippets of scripture and then arrogantly chastise the other person for not understanding.

So are you:
1. Saying that there is no truth apart from the Bible? In which case are you saying that

2. The Bible IS God and is to be obeyed and worshipped as God? in which case how do you explain your own contradiction when you quote John:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.​

So do you believe the "Spirit of Truth" is the Bible? And he does not speak anything that is not in the Bible that did not even exist when John wrote those words?

And one more question:

How do you determine who is qualified to speak what the Bible says when it speaks? Where do you get YOUR authority to judge my understanding of the Bible?

 

[koshergrl]

No but then again, we all walk our own path, and as Christians our focus should be on our OWN, and not the paths of others. All we can do for them is pray for them..and to trust God.

Support your brethren.

Very few people in my family are saved...my mother came from a very large family of determined atheists. My father was a lapsed mormon. My sister and I are Baptists and I have raised my kids in the church...but in the end, all you can do is strive with your own path, and not worry about the authority of others. You have your own authority.

Nobody is perfect and everybody moves along at their own pace. You seriously can't spend a lot of time sweating it, except in prayer; it will interfere with your own walk and cause strife in your lives, and others.

 

[Foxfyre]

No but then again, we all walk our own path, and as Christians our focus should be on our OWN, and not the paths of others. All we can do for them is pray for them..and to trust God.

Support your brethren.

Very few people in my family are saved...my mother came from a very large family of determined atheists. My father was a lapsed mormon. My sister and I are Baptists and I have raised my kids in the church...but in the end, all you can do is strive with your own path, and not worry about the authority of others. You have your own authority.

Nobody is perfect and everybody moves along at their own pace. You seriously can't spend a lot of time sweating it, except in prayer; it will interfere with your own walk and cause strife in your lives, and others.

I appreciate what you said here KG.

Almost everybody in my family IS saved, but oh my goodness we are a widely diverse and extremely ecumenical family representing a lot of very different Christian traditions. But, with a few exceptions, all of us are of one mind when it comes to loving God and seeking his will. And all have received spiritual gifts and ministries in different ways.

This is why in my conviction, I just have to believe that God is not limited and does not limit himself in how he carries out his plan among us. Now Chuckt seems to think such a concept is dividing the word of God and therefore is heresy. I just can't see it that way.

I am hoping somebody who agrees with him will explain his point of view in plain English as he appears unable or unwilling to do so.