Pharmacists can't refuse Plan B pill

[JBeukema]

The court did not rule that pharmacies must sell Plan . The court ruled that the pharmacy can not refuse to sell the drug based on the pharmacist personal religious preferences. It is not the action of refusing to sell the medication that was at issue. It's the reason for refusing to sell it that is the issue. A good analogy is employment. You can refuse to hire people but you can't refuse to hire them because of their race. There would have never been a court case nor would there have been this thread had pharmacist told the customer he did not stock the drug because there was not sufficient demand or any other reason other than his religious beliefs.
[/b]

You mean, we don't have freedom of religion in this country?

You certainly have the freedom to practice your religion but if you are licensed to sell medicine, you can't deny people medication because of your religious belief just as a doctor can't refuse to render life saving measures on the sabbath because of his religious belief or a lawyer can't break attorney client privilege because of religious beliefs. Before entering the profession, people should consider whether the responsibilities of the job would be in conflict with their religious beliefs. If so, maybe they should consider a different career.

Not carrying product x =/= an ER doctor refusing to treat a patient.


Since when is a responsibility of being a business owner selling whatever the Party tells you to?

 

[JBeukema]

You certainly have the freedom to practice your religion but if you are licensed to sell medicine, you can't deny people medication because of your religious belief just as a doctor can't refuse to render life saving measures on the sabbath because of his religious belief or a lawyer can't break attorney client privilege because of religious beliefs. Before entering the profession, people should consider whether the responsibilities of the job would be in conflict with their religious beliefs. If so, maybe they should consider a different career.

Doctors have the right to refuse to do abortions, why can't pharmacists refuse to sell an abortion pill?

Good question. The law says that no doctor or nurse must help with an abortion if he/she has a moral objection to the procedure. I guess doctors have more clout than pharmacist. There is an argument as to whether Plan B is abortion or birth control, however I will not get into that controversy.

By definition, it's not, since it prevents a pregnancy rather than aborting one.

Pregnancy begins with implantation. Untiul the blastocyst implants, the woman is not pregnant. By definition.

Implantation (usu. in the uterine wall, if all goes as it's supposed to) = impregnantion

 

[JBeukema]

Doctors have the right to refuse to do abortions, why can't pharmacists refuse to sell an abortion pill?

Plan B isn't an abortion pill because you take it before a pregnancy occurs. If you are pregnant, Plan B doesn't work.

Um that depends on when you think pregnancy occurs. As I understand it the drug works by preventing the already fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus.

That's like arguing over 'whether you think Earth is flat'

Such matters are not subject to opinion.

 

[CurveLight]

Plus, I was responding to immie's claim that all Americans should have the freedom to do business with only those they choose.

Godwin's law

"Fuck George Santayana, ignore history"

.

.

You got bitch slapped so stop whining and dragging it out.

 

[CurveLight]

You mean, we don't have freedom of religion in this country?

Now that is a horrible analogy. This has nothing to do with freedom of religion.

 

[Care4all]

If these same pharmacies rejecting the morning after pill for "religious reasons" also rejected selling birth control pills, then maybe this would make sense....they are ONE AND THE SAME concoction? both prevent the egg from attaching to the uterus if it is fertilized....most fertilized eggs do not make it to gestation naturally, as it is, from what I understand?

Both prevent pregnancy.

also, what about frozen embryos? Those are fertilized eggs....conception has occurred with them....should they never be discarded, even if the parents want no more children? Would you save a frozen embryo in a clinic fire, before you would save the employees working in the clinic?

 

[Screaming Eagle]

You mean, we don't have freedom of religion in this country?

Now that is a horrible analogy. This has nothing to do with freedom of religion.

Yes it does. They are forcing business owners to act in a way opposed to their religious beliefs.

 

[Screaming Eagle]

If these same pharmacies rejecting the morning after pill for "religious reasons" also rejected selling birth control pills, then maybe this would make sense....they are ONE AND THE SAME concoction? both prevent the egg from attaching to the uterus if it is fertilized....most fertilized eggs do not make it to gestation naturally, as it is, from what I understand?

Both prevent pregnancy.

also, what about frozen embryos? Those are fertilized eggs....conception has occurred with them....should they never be discarded, even if the parents want no more children? Would you save a frozen embryo in a clinic fire, before you would save the employees working in the clinic?

I'm sure not all, but I bet at least some of these pharmacies do not sell birth control pills either.

 

[Screaming Eagle]

I'm against the government telling businesses what services and goods they must deliver in any industry. I would think that in America that wouldn't be something we would have to be fighting over.

 

[Ava]

A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill. Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive. Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.

I wonder what the take on this concept is here. I am somewhat taken aback by this as I would have thought that it would naturally be the right of the business owner to decide what he or she sells. What right does the state have to mandate that a particular business sells anything. I understand regulation and placing limitations on items that a business is allowed to sell but forcing one to sell something seems over the top. What are your thoughts?



Pharmacists can't refuse Plan B pill, appeals court says - Los Angeles Times

I agree that the owners of businesses should have the right to carry and sell anything legal they want. In a free market society, it would be that way, but in a socialist society, it will be the government's way...

 

[CurveLight]

You mean, we don't have freedom of religion in this country?

Now that is a horrible analogy. This has nothing to do with freedom of religion.

Yes it does. They are forcing business owners to act in a way opposed to their religious beliefs.

Go learn what freedom of religion means dumbass.

 

[Againsheila]

You certainly have the freedom to practice your religion but if you are licensed to sell medicine, you can't deny people medication because of your religious belief just as a doctor can't refuse to render life saving measures on the sabbath because of his religious belief or a lawyer can't break attorney client privilege because of religious beliefs. Before entering the profession, people should consider whether the responsibilities of the job would be in conflict with their religious beliefs. If so, maybe they should consider a different career.

Doctors have the right to refuse to do abortions, why can't pharmacists refuse to sell an abortion pill?

Plan B isn't an abortion pill because you take it before a pregnancy occurs. If you are pregnant, Plan B doesn't work.

I need more info on Plan B. Do you take it before or after sex? Does it prevent conception? Or prevent the already fertilized egg from implanting in the womb? I think those are two different things.

 

[Againsheila]

Doctors have the right to refuse to do abortions, why can't pharmacists refuse to sell an abortion pill?

Good question. The law says that no doctor or nurse must help with an abortion if he/she has a moral objection to the procedure. I guess doctors have more clout than pharmacist. There is an argument as to whether Plan B is abortion or birth control, however I will not get into that controversy.

By definition, it's not, since it prevents a pregnancy rather than aborting one.

Pregnancy begins with implantation. Untiul the blastocyst implants, the woman is not pregnant. By definition.

Implantation (usu. in the uterine wall, if all goes as it's supposed to) = impregnantion

For many religious people, myself included, life begins at conception. Therefore, preventing implantation is abortion.

 

[JBeukema]

If these same pharmacies rejecting the morning after pill for "religious reasons" also rejected selling birth control pills, then maybe this would make sense....they are ONE AND THE SAME concoction? both prevent the egg from attaching to the uterus if it is fertilized....most fertilized eggs do not make it to gestation naturally, as it is, from what I understand?

Both prevent pregnancy.

And? If I don't sell beer because I don't want a bunch of drunks coming in at night yet I sell wine should I be forced to sell Budweiser?

What does their stupidity have to do with their right to run their business as they please and decide whether or not they wish to sell a given product?

 

[JBeukema]

Good question. The law says that no doctor or nurse must help with an abortion if he/she has a moral objection to the procedure. I guess doctors have more clout than pharmacist. There is an argument as to whether Plan B is abortion or birth control, however I will not get into that controversy.

By definition, it's not, since it prevents a pregnancy rather than aborting one.

Pregnancy begins with implantation. Untiul the blastocyst implants, the woman is not pregnant. By definition.

Implantation (usu. in the uterine wall, if all goes as it's supposed to) = impregnantion

For many religious people, myself included, life begins at conception. Therefore, preventing implantation is abortion.

Then talk to your god, as he's the greatest abortionist in history.

embryo loss in assisted reproduction is less frequent than in natural pregnancy, in which more than half of all fertilized eggs either fail to implant or are otherwise lost.

NEJM -- Embryo Ethics -- The Moral Logic of Stem-Cell Research

about 15% of all recognized pregnancies end in spontaneous abortions, usually during the first 12 weeks..l.

At least 15% of zygotes and blastocysts abort... another 30 per cent of women abort very early, unaware that they were pregnant... the overall early spontaneous abortion rate is thought to be about 45 per cent...

[it is estimated that] of the 70-75 per cent of blastocysts that implant, only 58 per cent survive to the end of the second week. [It is further estimated that] 16 per cent of this latter group would be abnormal and would abort in a week or so...

Source: The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (5th Edition)

 

[FA_Q2]

The court did not rule that pharmacies must sell Plan . The court ruled that the pharmacy can not refuse to sell the drug based on the pharmacist personal religious preferences. It is not the action of refusing to sell the medication that was at issue. It's the reason for refusing to sell it that is the issue. A good analogy is employment. You can refuse to hire people but you can't refuse to hire them because of their race. There would have never been a court case nor would there have been this thread had pharmacist told the customer he did not stock the drug because there was not sufficient demand or any other reason other than his religious beliefs.
[/B]

I am getting tired of this fallacy being printed here over and over again. I will have to use bigger letters than last time I guess.

In a case that could affect policy across the western U.S., a supermarket pharmacy owner in Olympia, Wash., failed in a bid to block 2007 regulations that required all Washington pharmacies to stock and dispense the pills.

NO WHERE DOES IT SAY A PHARMACIST CAN REFUSE TO STOCK THE PILL FOR ANY REASON. That includes profitability, religion or lack of interest in the community it is being sold in. YOU ARE REQUIRED TO STOCK THE DAMN PILL NO MATTER WHAT. If this article is lying then YOU need to source something that makes that clear. The fact is there needs to be a breach for a lawsuit to take place and that is what the suit was based on. The requirement is regardless of reason, ALL pharmacists MUST stock and dispense the pill.

AND NOT ONE PERSON HAS MET MY POINT YET. Why is it so important for a pharmacy to stock the plan b pill that there needs to be a LAW put in place that requires pharmacies to sell it when there is no such law for chemotherapy medication. Why does preventing a possible pregnancy come before the life of my child and where are his rights if you are so concerned that it is a right to have access to plan b at another's PRIVATE business.

Pharmacies do not have the storage space to carry every possible drug that might be needed, they have to make choices based on their community and their profits. You want to take that ability away from them, and force them to carry something just because you equate it with women's rights.

Guess what, it is not a right. You do not have any more right to force that pharmacist to carry a certain drug than I do to force him not to. End of story.

You are the one who has a serious problem with definitions here, and I was trying to be nice about explaining it to you. If you refuse to see truth just because you do not like it, then I do not have to be patient or nice about explaining it. Go whine to someone who thinks you are entitled to things, not to me, or the other reasonable people on the planet.

I have a feeling that the only reason that there are people here defending this is because it is related to abortion. They are all up in arms when someone even whispers about taking a woman's right to choose away but somehow that right trumps the rights of EVERYONE ELSE. If that were not the case, someone would have stepped up to the plate already.

So, what you are saying is that as long as I don't give a reason for not selling it, I don't have to sell it?

Okay, works for me. If I were a pharmacist, I would simply refuse to sell it and not give my reasons for doing so.

Immie

Unless he can source this though, he is incorrect. As noted above, the article clearly states there is a requirement to stock and dispense.

Doctors have the right to refuse to do abortions, why can't pharmacists refuse to sell an abortion pill?

Plan B isn't an abortion pill because you take it before a pregnancy occurs. If you are pregnant, Plan B doesn't work.

I need more info on Plan B. Do you take it before or after sex? Does it prevent conception? Or prevent the already fertilized egg from implanting in the womb? I think those are two different things.

You take it after sex and it can stop fertilization but it ALSO stops a fertilized egg from implanting. It does the second incase the first was to late. The BC pill DOES NOT do this unless taken in a much larger dosage (sometimes 10 times that which you normally take). The fact is there are a myriad of normal items that can be taken in large quantities (and also a number of activities) that will also induce a miscarriage. That does not mean those would be aginst the religion of the sellers to dispence.
Vitamin C - Self-Help
Just because vitamin C can cause a miscarriage does not mean that anyone will object to its sale because that is not the regular use of the product. The same goes with BC pills, they are not meant to stop an egg from implanting even though larger quantities can cause that effect. Stopping a fertilized egg from attaching to the wall is where the distaste comes in for some that see conception as the start of life. It is not abortion. It was mentioned earlier that pregnancy is not triggered by the fertilization of an egg. That is even possible OUTSIDE the womb. Pregnancy occurs when a fertilized egg is implanted in the uterus wall. That makes plan b a definite no on whether or not it is abortion but does not give a definite stance for those that believe life begins at conception.

 

[ConHog]

IF I owned a pharmacy I would absolutely refuse to sell this pill just because of the government trying to force me to do so, and I don't have any feelings on the pill itself.

Do you folks not care about freedom at all?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If these same pharmacies rejecting the morning after pill for "religious reasons" also rejected selling birth control pills, then maybe this would make sense....they are ONE AND THE SAME concoction? both prevent the egg from attaching to the uterus if it is fertilized....most fertilized eggs do not make it to gestation naturally, as it is, from what I understand?

Both prevent pregnancy.

also, what about frozen embryos? Those are fertilized eggs....conception has occurred with them....should they never be discarded, even if the parents want no more children? Would you save a frozen embryo in a clinic fire, before you would save the employees working in the clinic?

Fine, we will tell them they can not sell Plan B if they also not sell any form of BC. Do you think this will awaken them to the error of their ways and they will then sell Plan B, or do you think they will simply stop carrying birth control entirely?

But wait, that is not an option, because even if they already meet you qualification of not selling birth control, which is entirely possible if the pharmacist happens to be a Mennonite, he still has to sell Plan B by the dictates of the state of Washington. That makes your position false because it does not apply.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Now that is a horrible analogy. This has nothing to do with freedom of religion.

Yes it does. They are forcing business owners to act in a way opposed to their religious beliefs.

Go learn what freedom of religion means dumbass.

Well, according to SCOTUS and Congress, it means a person can not preform an abortion if they have a moral objection to it. It also means that a person can refuse to sell tobacco and alcohol, even though these are legal products that anyone can buy. It even means that a pharmacist working for a pharmacy can refuse to dispense medications that that pharmacy sells, and they cannot be fired for it.

Yet somehow you do not think it means that a pharmacist can refuse to sell something if he happens to own the pharmacy himself. I must admit to some confusion about this, but I am sure you can clear it up.

 

[Sarah G]

You people seem to forget that all of your silly arguments have been heard and the pharmacies don't get to refuse a sale of Plan B for religious reasons.