POLL: The GOP and "Socialism"

[BlackSand]

Ridiculous, you clearly lack even the most basic idea of political economy.

Socialism.....collecting a rock, making something useful out of it and retaining the full value of what was produced.

Capitalism......collecting a rock, having someone else make something useful out of it and retaining for yourself a portion of the value that was produced.

You obviously didn't understand what I posted.

To recognize the full value the rock can bring you have to sell it.
It doesn't matter whether or not you picked the rock up or paid someone to pick it up.

To what measure you and the rock make it to the sell ... Determines your ability to invest in the return ... That's a fact, not an argument ...

If all you can invest in is your labor picking up the rock ... Then that is the return you have invested in.
If you invest the labor of picking up the rock, taking it to market, and selling the rock ... That is the return you have invested in.
If you invest in buying the labor of rock picker uppers, take it to market and sell the rock ... That is the return you have invested in.
If you invested in owning the rocks to start with ... That is the return you have invested in.

If you are attempting to in invest in the dream of getting whatever you want your return to be because you want to pick up rocks ...
Then a pile of rocks is the return you have invested in.

.

.​

 

[mudwhistle]

This ain't Europe bunny, and Social Security, just like ALL socialist ideas will implode just a matter of time. I am 70 my children may not see SS, and my grandchildren certainly will not.

Sure they will. All we have to do is make the rich pay their fair share and means test it.

LOL, the sound of real stupidity.
And, what exactly is the "fair share" for the rich?
Remember, you are asking them for something they don't need.

So what's you're saying it's ok if someone making over $128,000 annually doesn't have to pay into social security? If there was no stop gap SS would be solvent a 100 years from now.

Social Security Administration announces small increase in 2018 wage base

Paying into Social Security should be 100% voluntary

Only if the Congress keeps their stinking paws off of it.

 

[Tehon]

Ridiculous, you clearly lack even the most basic idea of political economy.

Socialism.....collecting a rock, making something useful out of it and retaining the full value of what was produced.

Capitalism......collecting a rock, having someone else make something useful out of it and retaining for yourself a portion of the value that was produced.

You obviously didn't understand what I posted.

To recognize the full value the rock can bring you have to sell it.
It doesn't matter whether or not you picked the rock up or paid someone to pick it up.

To what measure you and the rock make it to the sell ... Determines your ability to invest in the return ... That's a fact, not an argument ...

If all you can invest in is your labor picking up the rock ... Then that is the return you have invested in.
If you invest the labor of picking up the rock, taking it to market, and selling the rock ... That is the return you have invested in.
If you invest in buying the labor of rock picker uppers, take it to market and sell the rock ... That is the return you have invested in.
If you invested in owning the rocks to start with ... That is the return you have invested in.

If you are attempting to in invest in the dream of getting whatever you want your return to be because you want to pick up rocks ...
Then a pile of rocks is the return you have invested in.

.

.​

I guess I didn't understand what you were saying. But you aren't really making it any clearer here.

Why do you think the return the socialist expects is anything other than the labor invested in collecting the rock and bringing it to market for exchange? Where does the idea that the socialist's expectation of return is arbitrary come from?

 

[mudwhistle]

Gee...Venezuela is doing so well.

Do you see any difference whatsoever between, say, Venezuela and Canada?
.

Venezuela voted for a communist.

 

[Mac1958]

Gee...Venezuela is doing so well.

Do you see any difference whatsoever between, say, Venezuela and Canada?

Venezuela voted for a communist.

Anything else?
.

 

[BlackSand]

I guess I didn't understand what you were saying. But you aren't really making it any clearer here.

Why do you think the return the socialist expects is anything other than the labor invested in collecting the rock and bringing it to market for exchange? Where does the idea that the socialist's expectation of exchange is arbitrary come from?

I included all of it ... And specifically indicated the return is always based on how a person manages both the socialist and capitalist side.
You chose to call me an idiot because you didn't understand what I was saying.

None of it is arbitrary ... Nor does it require argument ... Unless of course you have capitalist dreams on a socialist budget ...

.​

 

[Tehon]

I guess I didn't understand what you were saying. But you aren't really making it any clearer here.

Why do you think the return the socialist expects is anything other than the labor invested in collecting the rock and bringing it to market for exchange? Where does the idea that the socialist's expectation of exchange is arbitrary come from?

I included all of it ... And specifically indicated the return is always based on how a person manages both the socialist and capitalist side.
You chose to call me an idiot because you didn't understand what I was saying.

None of it is arbitrary ... Nor does it require argument ... Unless of course you have capitalist dreams on a socialist budget ...

.​

You said that for the socialist, the return he expects is arbitrary.

If you are attempting to in invest in the dream of getting whatever you want your return to be because you want to pick up rocks ...
Then a pile of rocks is the return you have invested in.

This doesn't make sense to me, I'm asking you to clarify it.

Just because I don't understand what you are saying doesn't mean you aren't an idiot.

If anything, the capitalist market system adds an arbitrary element to the return expected.

 

[Pilot1]

So you won't take a pension?

That question says a lot. It says you aren't being honest, or you are ignorant. People either PAY into pension funds, or the employer funds the pension in return FOR WORK as part of the agreement of employment. Often it is a combination of both employee, and employer contributions. So your question is meaningless.

 

[mudwhistle]

Gee...Venezuela is doing so well.

Do you see any difference whatsoever between, say, Venezuela and Canada?

Venezuela voted for a communist.

Anything else?
.

Canada is living off of its neighbor. Venezuela's neighbors are broke.

 

[Mac1958]

Gee...Venezuela is doing so well.

Do you see any difference whatsoever between, say, Venezuela and Canada?

Venezuela voted for a communist.

Anything else?
.

Canada is living off of its neighbor. Venezuela's neighbors are broke.

Okay, never mind. We can play this game all day, but I already know the answer.
.

 

[BlackSand]

This doesn't make sense to me, I'm asking you to clarify it.

Just because I don't understand what you are saying doesn't mean you aren't an idiot.

If anything, the capitalist market system adds an arbitrary element to the return expected.

I think you are trying to make something simple, very difficult.

The value is not recognized until the sell.
At what point the person separates from, or includes themselves into, the process determines their return.
There is nothing arbitrary about that.
Every part is required to go from raw material to sell.

If anything ... You would be trying to assign an arbitrary value to a single part (or restricted combination of parts) ...
That's not supported by the ability of another to take rock to market and recognize actual value in return ...

I am not suggesting anyone can or cannot do any or all of the parts ...
Simply that their investment in any or all of the parts influences their return.

Simply put ... You can assume the rock, and everything that contributed to it is worth, is whatever you want to assume in value ...
But ... Until you deliver it to a person who puts value in your hand .. It's just a combination of investments waiting on a return.

.

.​

 

[mudwhistle]

Gee...Venezuela is doing so well.

Do you see any difference whatsoever between, say, Venezuela and Canada?

Venezuela voted for a communist.

Anything else?
.

Canada is living off of its neighbor. Venezuela's neighbors are broke.

Okay, never mind. We can play this game all day, but I already know the answer.
.

Make your point then.
I have a job I have to deal with.

 

[Mac1958]

Do you see any difference whatsoever between, say, Venezuela and Canada?

Venezuela voted for a communist.

Anything else?
.

Canada is living off of its neighbor. Venezuela's neighbors are broke.

Okay, never mind. We can play this game all day, but I already know the answer.
.

Make your point then.
I have a job I have to deal with.

Sure, I'll say it yet again:

1. The Right doesn't realize that the term "socialism" is scaring fewer and fewer people, and it's their own fault. Just as the Left has diluted the term "racism" into nothing. Or anything.

2. Economic systems exist on a continuum. There are clear economic differences between Cuba and Canada, for example, and for some reason the Right won't admit it.
.

 

[Tehon]

The value is not recognized until the sell.
At what point the person separates from, or includes themselves into, the process determines their return.
There is nothing arbitrary about that.
Every part is required to go from raw material to sell.

This is just as true for a socialist system of production as it is for a capitalist one. There is no distinction as you had previously suggested.

The difference is in how the value is determined for the whole and also for each part. In a socialist system it is not left to the whims of the market. It is determined by socially necessary labor time.

 

[forkup]

So you won't take a pension?

That question says a lot. It says you aren't being honest, or you are ignorant. People either PAY into pension funds, or the employer funds the pension in return FOR WORK as part of the agreement of employment. Often it is a combination of both employee, and employer contributions. So your question is meaningless.

Actually Pensions in the United States - Wikipedia
Pensions in the United States consist of the Social Security system, a federal social insurance program which pays old-age pensions, as well as various private pension plans offered by employers, insurance companies, and trade unions.
How is the question meaningless or dishonest?

 

[sartre play]

It has been suggested that materialism is the only motivator of people. That's sad, but I think not a completely untrue characterization of American beliefs. This coming from American conservatives no less.

It's hard to imagine why so many Americans are unhappy.

I think it's fair to look at depression, drug addiction and suicide rates in this country and wonder about that.
.

ADD murder to your list. thanks

 

[debbiedowner]

Gee...Venezuela is doing so well.

Do you see any difference whatsoever between, say, Venezuela and Canada?

Venezuela voted for a communist.

Anything else?
.

Canada is living off of its neighbor. Venezuela's neighbors are broke.

Okay, never mind. We can play this game all day, but I already know the answer.
.

The overwhelming answer in this thread and it's not really an answer is Venezuela, lol.

 

[Mac1958]

The overwhelming answer in this thread and it's not really an answer is Venezuela, lol.

I can't even tell yet if they HAVE an answer. Kinda disturbing.
.

 

[BlackSand]

This is just as true for a socialist system of production as it is for a capitalist one. There is no distinction as you had previously suggested.

The difference is in how the value is determined for the whole and also for each part. In a socialist system it is not left to the whims of the market. It is determined by socially necessary labor time.

I didn't make any distinction other than the social side is people while the capital side is money.

It doesn't matter how you want to value anything ... Value isn't recognized until the sell.
How closely your investments are to the sell ... The closer you are to actual value.

It doesn't matter if you are socialist or a capitalist if you sell yourself short.
The market doesn't care what arbitrary value you want to assign to anything other than the sell and actual value ...

.​

 

[mudwhistle]

Venezuela voted for a communist.

Anything else?
.

Canada is living off of its neighbor. Venezuela's neighbors are broke.

Okay, never mind. We can play this game all day, but I already know the answer.
.

Make your point then.
I have a job I have to deal with.

Sure, I'll say it yet again:

1. The Right doesn't realize that the term "socialism" is scaring fewer and fewer people, and it's their own fault. Just as the Left has diluted the term "racism" into nothing. Or anything.

2. Economic systems exist on a continuum. There are clear economic differences between Cuba and Canada, for example, and for some reason the Right won't admit it.
.

I think you're only paying attention to part of what has been said, or you don't understand the context some try to convey.
Cuba is a Communist country, which cannot be compared to Canada. Canada is not a pure Socialist country, however they have flaws like any Socialist country. One of them is with their health care system, which to my understanding is inadequate for their needs. They can't handle a mass of refugees plugged into their system.