Profound Question

[mattskramer]

perhaps it's logic that is too broad for humans to fathom outside of their own humanity....

I remember a parallel in an apologetics book. It said that we understand why things happen to us like a dog understands why it gets taken to the veterinarian. It is an interesting comparison. The dog does not understand why its master is taking it to the vet or why the veterinarian seems to be hurting it so much. Yet, the vet knows. He must hurt the dog to heal the dog. A dog may be to a man as a man is to God. I still don’t fully “buy” the comparison but I think about it some times.

 

[Shogun]

yea.. don't get me wrong.. I'm as athiest as the day is long
But i'd imagine that any sentience that qualifies as a god would have to, by it's own nature, be greater than our human capacity to understand it.


I'm reminded of Arthur Clark's 2001 series where Dave and Hal end up being the first starmen after humanity evolved to a certain point in ability and knowledge. I've always wondered if "God's" motivation in creation was similar to that of Clark's monolith aliens.

 

[Foxfyre]

yea.. don't get me wrong.. I'm as athiest as the day is long
But i'd imagine that any sentience that qualifies as a god would have to, by it's own nature, be greater than our human capacity to understand it.


I'm reminded of Arthur Clark's 2001 series where Dave and Hal end up being the first starmen after humanity evolved to a certain point in ability and knowledge. I've always wondered if "God's" motivation in creation was similar to that of Clark's monolith aliens.

Pretty astute for an Athiest.

Actually I, as a Christian, have no quarrel with this. If we were able to understand or explain God, he wouldn't be much of a God would he?

I like the theory of a friend who has PhDs in geology and physics and maybe biology--not positive about that last one but I know he has a degree. Anyhow he is a major Christian guy and holds to what I describe as the "Oh God" theology from the George Burns movies I think of the 1970s or early 80s? That theory is that a beautiful universe has been created for us that includes all the beauty and bounty we could ever hope for. It is governed by a natural law system of checks and balances, cause and effect, occurrence and consequence. Animals who have intinctively adapted to this system have survived, thrived, and naturally evolved into what they have come to be now. Those that didn't became extinct.

Humankind, of all the creatures, is the only one with the intelligence to choose to override his basic instincts and thus can choose not to adapt and choose instead to intentionally change his circumstances. God is there to counsel us and and direct us in our choices, but we too often don't bother with Him. Thus, even though we guess right some of the time, we get it wrong some of the time too and screw everything up in all areas of health, wealth, relationships, environment, and potential. And some of those bad choices last for a very long time. The bright side is that we also have the ability to make good choices and begin what might be a slow process of undoing the damage we've done.

I don't know for sure that he's right, but it feels right to me. If it isn't the truth, it ought to be.

 

[Foxfyre]

Is that fair? The Bible often says that God is fair and loving. Yet, that is inconsistent with the notion that sins are passed down to children. Consider the death and destruction from a recent Tsunami:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake#Damage_and_casualties

Also, consider Katrina. Oh. Most of the People who were hit by Katrina were Black. Does God dislike Black people?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_Hurricane_Katrina_on_New_Orleans#Loss_of_life

If God is a just God and a loving God, why does this stuff happen? It simply is not logical.

I don't pretent to know the mind of God, but the God I have experienced is a just and loving God. Of that I have absolutely no doubt.

But what I have come to believe is that God expects us to live within his rules/system/order of things and all 6 billion of us on the Planet can't expect God to change the system to accommodate the dumb stuff that each of us does. It is our responsiibility to consider the consequences of what we do and appreciate that those consequences can affect people generations from now. So if we are kind to the earth and kind ourselves and each other, that is the legacy we pass on. If we are not, then somebody now or on down the line will certainly suffer.

God didn't put people in the path of the tsunami, Tsunamis and hurricanes are part of the natural order of things. People are wise to not build their homes and businesses where tsunamis and hurricanes are certain to come now and then. If they choose to take that risk, or choose not to determine if there is a risk, we can be saddened that they suffer so much and we can try to alleviate their suffering as much as we can, but it is not God's fault that they suffer.

I think the only way God could make us do the right thing all the time is by taking away free will. We would have no more pain and suffering or problems, but we would be mere marionettes with our every thought, our every action maniuplated by divine strings. We would have no capacity for love or joy or possibilities or expectations that we have power to change our environment and/or our world. It wouldn't be worth it. Not to me anyway.

 

[mattskramer]

I don't pretent to know the mind of God, but the God I have experienced is a just and loving God. Of that I have absolutely no doubt.

But what I have come to believe is that God expects us to live within his rules/system/order of things and all 6 billion of us on the Planet can't expect God to change the system to accommodate the dumb stuff that each of us does. It is our responsiibility to consider the consequences of what we do and appreciate that those consequences can affect people generations from now. So if we are kind to the earth and kind ourselves and each other, that is the legacy we pass on. If we are not, then somebody now or on down the line will certainly suffer.

God didn't put people in the path of the tsunami, Tsunamis and hurricanes are part of the natural order of things. People are wise to not build their homes and businesses where tsunamis and hurricanes are certain to come now and then. If they choose to take that risk, or choose not to determine if there is a risk, we can be saddened that they suffer so much and we can try to alleviate their suffering as much as we can, but it is not God's fault that they suffer.

I think the only way God could make us do the right thing all the time is by taking away free will. We would have no more pain and suffering or problems, but we would be mere marionettes with our every thought, our every action maniuplated by divine strings. We would have no capacity for love or joy or possibilities or expectations that we have power to change our environment and/or our world. It wouldn't be worth it. Not to me anyway.

Okay. Then tell me what the infant did in my picture that was so wrong?

Okay. Then tell me what the infant did in my picture that was so wrong? Did he choose to be born where he was born or did he make the conditions under which he lives?

What about children that are born with debilitating illnesses through no fault of their own and no fault of their parents? There is supposedly a just and loving God but on the other hand, there is no rhyme or reason to anything.

 

[Foxfyre]

Okay. Then tell me what the infant did in my picture that was so wrong?

Okay. Then tell me what the infant did in my picture that was so wrong? Did he choose to be born where he was born or did he make the conditions under which he lives?

What about children that are born with debilitating illnesses through no fault of their own and no fault of their parents? There is supposedly a just and loving God but on the other hand, there is no rhyme or reason to anything.

You are asking me to explain the unknowable. I can only explain how I see it.

No, so far as we know the infant had no choice in being conceived; therefore I see the adults who chose to conceive him have a great moral duty and obligation to provide that new being with all the love and care they are capable of providing or seeing to it that it will be provided by somebody. It does not matter whether the child was wanted or is 'inconvenient'. We still have a moral responsibility for him.

I think if humankind had not abused itself with all manner of poisons and harmful substances, both intentionally and inadvertently, we would not be passing down damaged genes that can result in people born with debilitating diseases. That I think that is one of those 'even unto the fourth and fifth generation' things which in ancient vernacular meant a very long time. And I think should humankind get off the drugs and booze and start adhering to a 'kosher' diet (meaning one that is actually good for us) as well as creating an environment free of toxins, it will certainly take generations, but we could be passing on a legacy of a lot fewer or no genetic debilitating diseases.

 

[jillian]

yea.. don't get me wrong.. I'm as athiest as the day is long
But i'd imagine that any sentience that qualifies as a god would have to, by it's own nature, be greater than our human capacity to understand it.


I'm reminded of Arthur Clark's 2001 series where Dave and Hal end up being the first starmen after humanity evolved to a certain point in ability and knowledge. I've always wondered if "God's" motivation in creation was similar to that of Clark's monolith aliens.

http://www.newkabbalah.com/einsof.html

 

[jillian]

Is that fair? The Bible often says that God is fair and loving. Yet, that is inconsistent with the notion that sins are passed down to children.

Actually, they don't HAVE to be passed to the children. The text, as I understand it at least, is:

Exodus Chapter 20
: (5) You shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them. For I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons to the third and fourth generation of those that hate me, (6) and showing mercy to thousands of those that love Me and keep My commandments.

Like anything else in the bible, it is open to interpretation and discussion. Mostly, I think the biblical morality plays are intended to teach lessons. What better way to keep a superstitious desert people in line than telling them if they do the wrong thing, it'll come down on their children's heads?

Me? I don't think it works that way. I think everyone's actions can lead to their redemption.

As for why bad stuff happens? It's random. It's human error. There's not necessarily a purpose. Or maybe there are purposes we can't see.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

Okay. Then tell me what the infant did in my picture that was so wrong? Did he choose to be born where he was born or did he make the conditions under which he lives?

Look again, Matt. The kid is B-L-A-C-K!

Then go and read how God and his good buddy Abraham conspired together to remove the taint of negroid blood from the upcoming Hebrew master race.

If you are a Bible believer, this (The story of Hagar and Ishmael) is the first documented case of ethnic cleansing. I expect all the Christians here will condemn Abie and his niggger hating God for their supercilious racism, or by their silence stand condemned with them.

Actually, the photo is quite evocative of how Abraham dumped these sub-human coons, Hagar and her black brat, in the desert.

 

[jillian]

Look again, Matt. The kid is B-L-A-C-K!

Then go and read how God and his good buddy Abraham conspired together to remove the taint of negroid blood from the upcoming Hebrew master race.

If you are a Bible believer, this is the first documented case of ethnic cleansing. I expect all the Christians here will condemn Abie and niggger hating God for their supercilious racism or by their silence stand condemned with them.

The photo is quite evocative of how Abraham dumped these sub-human coons, Hagar and her black brat, in the desert.

You know, Chips, seems to me there are a lot of ways to read the story of Abraham, none of which have anything to do with ethnic cleansing. Jealous wife? Er... yup. Said jealous wife protecting her son's legacy? Er... yup (a theme that actually IS repeated through the bible... see:jacob/esau).

But ethnic cleansing? Of what? The children of Abraham are all the same race/ethnicity, whatever you want to call it.

 

[Bern80]

it took me some time to reconcile what happens in our world if God exists. For me religion has to make sense. And no organized religion so far does. They hae all strayed to far from what any benevolent being would want out of teachers of faith. That may be a bit of paradox, but oh well.

The answer I came up with? If a god exists he watches and only watches. He doesn't answer prayers. he doesn't preform miracles. He doesn't allow some things to happen and some things not to happen. Why? Because there is no justifiable reason that a God could allow what happens in the pictures above. That so many good people die and so many evil are allowed to live.

If we are God's children, this life is a test. We pass or fail by the choices we make. If God has a plan for us I don't beleive it has anything to do with this life. It has to do with the afterlife.

 

[rOckNrOllsCar11]

Look again, Matt. The kid is B-L-A-C-K!

Then go and read how God and his good buddy Abraham conspired together to remove the taint of negroid blood from the upcoming Hebrew master race.

If you are a Bible believer, this (The story of Hagar and Ishmael) is the first documented case of ethnic cleansing. I expect all the Christians here will condemn Abie and his niggger hating God for their supercilious racism, or by their silence stand condemned with them.

Actually, the photo is quite evocative of how Abraham dumped these sub-human coons, Hagar and her black brat, in the desert.

The kid that was produced from Abrahams affair is supposedly the source of the Palastinians.

 

[Foxfyre]

The kid that was produced from Abrahams affair is supposedly the source of the Palastinians.

Actually as the tradition goes, the Jews descended from Abraham's son, Isaac. The Arab peoples--all of them--descended from Abraham's son, Ishmael. They're all cousins but they don't kiss much.

 

[mattskramer]

You know, Chips, seems to me there are a lot of ways to read the story of Abraham, none of which have anything to do with ethnic cleansing. Jealous wife? Er... yup. Said jealous wife protecting her son's legacy? Er... yup (a theme that actually IS repeated through the bible... see:jacob/esau).

But ethnic cleansing? Of what? The children of Abraham are all the same race/ethnicity, whatever you want to call it.

The Old Testament tells some pretty vicious tales. There is something about children having their heads smashed against rocks. There are stories about not letting a single person from the opposing side live. Then, in the New Testament, the Bible often speaks of loving your enemy and turning the other cheek. I guess that once God’s chosen people were in a relatively comfortable position of power, they could afford to be nice. I guess that all that I am saying is that, basically, the Bible just does not seem to make sense.

 

[Foxfyre]

The Old Testament tells some pretty vicious tales. There is something about children having their heads smashed against rocks. There are stories about not letting a single person from the opposing side live. Then, in the New Testament, the Bible often speaks of loving your enemy and turning the other cheek. I guess that once God’s chosen people were in a relatively comfortable position of power, they could afford to be nice. I guess that all that I am saying is that, basically, the Bible just does not seem to make sense.

Sure it does. If you read only the chapters of American history in which slavery was legal and routine - or - if you read only the chapters of American History in which women could not vote - or - if you read only the chapters of American history in which "Japs" and "Krauts" were featured in movies and pro-American war ads, etc. - or - if you read only the chapters of American History in which different states or areas practiced extreme religious intolerance, you would have a much different impression of America than if you read about our points of view, practices, customs, and culture now. Germans and Russians no longer persecute Jews. Japan no longer rapes and pillages its neighbors. We have all evolved and learned and become better than we were.

America has only been around for something over 200 years and yet our progress and changing attitudes are remarkabe. The Bible records at least 2000 years or more of pieces of history of a people. To assume that those people would not have also evolved and adopted a new and difference sense of morality, propriety, custom, and point of view over all that tme would be pretty remarkable. The Bible clearly reflects how they changed and progressed over time.

 

[mattskramer]

Sure it does. If you read only the chapters of American history in which slavery was legal and routine - or - if you read only the chapters of American History in which women could not vote - or - if you read only the chapters of American history in which "Japs" and "Krauts" were featured in movies and pro-American war ads, etc. - or - if you read only the chapters of American History in which different states or areas practiced extreme religious intolerance, you would have a much different impression of America than if you read about our points of view, practices, customs, and culture now. Germans and Russians no longer persecute Jews. Japan no longer rapes and pillages its neighbors. We have all evolved and learned and become better than we were.

America has only been around for sometime over 200 years. The Bible records more than 3000 years of history of a people. To assume that those people would not have also evolved and adopted a new and difference sense of morality, propriety, custom, and point of view over all that tme would be pretty remarkable. The Bible clearly reflects how they changed and progressed over time.

I read all of the books of the Old and New Testament several times. A people can, over time, have a change in attitude. I am saying that the trinity (God, Jesus, the Holy Sprit) that are supposedly one in the same, seems to have had an “about face.” So many passages in the Old Testament tell of God instructing his people to slaughter the enemy. In the New Testament, Jesus tells his people to show mercy.

 

[Foxfyre]

I read all of the books of the Old and New Testament several times. A people can, over time, have a change in attitude. I am saying that the trinity (God, Jesus, the Holy Sprit) that are supposedly one in the same, seems to have had an “about face.” So many passages in the Old Testament tell of God instructing his people to slaughter the enemy. In the New Testament, Jesus tells his people to show mercy.

If you have read all of the books of the Old and New Testament several times, you couldn't have missed the many passages on mercy and compassion and justice to be found also in the Old Testament. The entire book of Amos, for instance, is pretty much a commentary on social justice and the responsibility and accountability we all share for that.

You also could not have missed the New Testament passages in which Jesus said that he did not come to bring peace but rather a sword, in which he drove the money changers out of the temple, and in which he did not suggest that the people should do away with capital punishment. You could not have missed the ominous prophecies related to the fate of the Earth or the apocalypse described in Revelation and some other places.

I recommend a really good comprehensive Bible study in which you learn how to put the events of the Bible into chronological order--they are in no way in chronological order in the Bible as we have it now--to distinguish between prophecy, history, poetry, law, parable, metaphor, symbol, and good old-fashioned Jewish allegory.

Yes the history of the Hebrews is pretty violent and bloody as was the history of all people of that time. And because the Hebrews attributed everything that occured in their lives to God, it would be natural for them to attribute the acts of war to God as they attributed everything else to God. And, with careful Bible study, you begin to see those attitudes and points of view change as they developed a more enlightened civilization as all other people have also done.

God hasn't changed. But, at least for us who have experienced God, our perceptions about Him have changed as we have all changed.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

You know, Chips, seems to me there are a lot of ways to read the story of Abraham, none of which have anything to do with ethnic cleansing. Jealous wife? Er... yup. Said jealous wife protecting her son's legacy? Er... yup (a theme that actually IS repeated through the bible... see:jacob/esau).

But ethnic cleansing? Of what? The children of Abraham are all the same race/ethnicity, whatever you want to call it.

You don’t seriously imagine that Hagar would have been deserted in the desert if her Mischlinge had been a full member of the Hebrew Herrenrasse like Isaac, do you Jill?

Read again how incestuous Abie’s sister-wife and prostitute Sarah uses the pretext that this dirty little Gypo-Afro dared mock her precious little Jewish Prince as justification for his mother AND his murder/abandonment.

As for the bit about El "Exterminate all the Nations!!" Shaddai rescuing them, why then did he demand the professional pimp Abie dump them in the desert in the first place?

To appease the patently racist prostitute Sarah? Hardly! Women were regarded as mere sperm receptacles and beasts of burden back in the God Ol’ Days.

The fable, like many others in the Vilebull, has obviously been reworked to make Abie “The Beast of Baghdad” Mengele and his ogre of a God look more compassionate to contemporary sensitivities.

The Bible is nothing but a Hebrew Mien Kampf from beginning to end.

 

[Shogun]

Jesus said that he did not come to bring peace but rather a sword



um, it's a saturday and im not interested in getting too deap on this tonight but I'm pretty sure that when he said that he was talking about "the sword" as persicution against his followers by those who believe differenly rather than validating christian acts of violence. He was establishing that his word was more important than bonds with family and friends.


"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it."
(Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)



the money changers clarified that the temple should not become a place of business...


im ot sure what you were referring to about capitol punishment. But, Ill take a stab:

"Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." And once again he bent down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders; and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus straightened up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one, sir." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again." (NRSV, John 8:7-11)




The Bible is nothing but a Hebrew Mien Kampf from beginning to end.

thats pretty true. My fav is Elisha bald head and his she bear solution to mocking kids...

 

[manu1959]

Former inmate of a Christian Brother's concentration camp, an unwilling member of a Methodist Sunday school, and later an equally unwilling particpant in a Prezo Bible study.

All of them at my Catholic Communist father's behest.

As for my "blasphemy," the only blasphemy I have encountered in my 65 years is religion itself.

you know the only thing i dont' belive is true here is that he has 65 years of experience on this planet.....